The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    This I am sure has been ask many times but will give it a go. I play pick and finger-style much like Joe Pass would but or course without his great competence. My problem is I would like to just pretty much give up the pick except for a few things which I still like a pick sound for. The issue is speed. Playing with the pick speed is a no contest I am just much faster and when the tempo gets up I have to use the pick. I do know though that some finger-style players can pretty much move at any speed and I think of even flamingo players like Paco who had incredible single line speed.

    What is the best method for speed? I have used just middle and index alternating. I have used thumb and index with thumb on the downs and index on the ups. I have tried a hybrid approach using all 3 but still don't know for sure. My instinct this the thumb and index alternation is the fastest but the best sound I get is the index and middle alternating. I take any suggestions the experts might know. Finally it could be that frankly the pick is the fastest when all things are said and done. It could be I just need to really woodshed and know in time the speed will get there but I have been at it awhile.

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  3. #2

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    Don't forget that Pass kept a pick either palmed or in his mouth. As the tempo surged he would shift to the pick.

  4. #3

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    I am not an expert by any means. I never took to using a pick and am probably not as fast as a lot of players. That said my method is to grow out my nails on my thumb and index finger and pinch them together as if I was holding a pick. The two nails together are my pick so to speak. The advantage for me is that I don't have to use much force to pinch them together. A lot less stress on the pinching muscles than holding a pick.

  5. #4

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    Lenny Breau used all four fingers + thumbpick and achieved pick-like speed but used a lot of articulations (hammer-on/pull-off) to get there. There is a helpful discussion/demonstration of this approach on Paul Bourdeau's DVD, "The guitar style of Lenny Breau." Lorne Lofsky also uses a thumbpick and seems to rely mostly on thumb + index for single lines, although he changes it up sometimes.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    This I am sure has been ask many times but will give it a go. I play pick and finger-style much like Joe Pass would but or course without his great competence. My problem is I would like to just pretty much give up the pick except for a few things which I still like a pick sound for. The issue is speed. Playing with the pick speed is a no contest I am just much faster and when the tempo gets up I have to use the pick. I do know though that some finger-style players can pretty much move at any speed and I think of even flamingo players like Paco who had incredible single line speed.

    What is the best method for speed? I have used just middle and index alternating. I have used thumb and index with thumb on the downs and index on the ups. I have tried a hybrid approach using all 3 but still don't know for sure. My instinct this the thumb and index alternation is the fastest but the best sound I get is the index and middle alternating. I take any suggestions the experts might know. Finally it could be that frankly the pick is the fastest when all things are said and done. It could be I just need to really woodshed and know in time the speed will get there but I have been at it awhile.
    Deacon,
    I gave up (at least temporarily) the pick over a year ago. So, your post really interests me. I've tried the same permutations you have. I did thumb and middle finger for a while but never got comfortable with it. I used to play Flamenco. Recently I tried the old Flamenco picado technique (pre Paco de Lucia where your fingers are straighter, which is the way I was taught) after seeing Matteo Mancuso do it on a steel string guitar.

    That approach seems to work better for me than anything else I've tried. However, it's going to take quite a bit of practice to get comfortable with it again (if ever) and be able to do it with no nails or very little nail.

    Sean McGowan can play pretty damn fast line with just his fingers. He has a very unusual looking technique, but it obviously works very well for him. Check out the free samples his finger style course on Truefire and you'll see what I mean.

    I think the trick to playing fast lines finger style is to use a lot more hammer-ons and pull-offs than you would use when playing with a pick.

    I'm really interested in what more experienced finger style players have to say about this. There are probably many many ways to skin this cat.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    I have used thumb and index with thumb on the downs and index on the ups. I have tried a hybrid approach using all 3 but still don't know for sure. My instinct this the thumb and index alternation is the fastest but the best sound I get is the index and middle alternating. I take any suggestions the experts might know. Finally it could be that frankly the pick is the fastest when all things are said and done. It could be I just need to really woodshed and know in time the speed will get there but I have been at it awhile.
    I gave up the pick about 6 years ago and I mostly use this method, but I'm not an expert by any means. On faster stuff, when things are going well, the thumb and index are fairly fixed and it becomes a wrist action similar to pick playing.

    As you said, at least for us mortals, I think the pick is probably always going to be faster.

    Lately I've been practicing some scales and arps using that thumb/index method on the low 3 strings, and index/middle for the high 3 strings. It feels weird.

    I'm also spending some time doing sweep-picking type things across multiple strings with thumb down and middle or index up...haven't settled on which I prefer. The little sweeps along with focusing on hammer-ons and pull-offs are where I pick up some speed. YMMV

    To be honest, my right hand works best when I ignore it and let it take care of itself. But it's hard. I overthink everything.

    And in direct conflict with everything I've just typed, this guy doesn't struggle with speed...


  8. #7

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    Speed is not in just one hand. It's in the connection of the left and right hand. It means that left hand fingerings and right hand picking rules must be compatible. IMHO, difference in speed between playing with pick and fingers is more caused by this difference than by other technical issues. Some players seem to find the right formulas for this, some never do.
    I play with pick and with thumb and I am very satisfied with the speed I achieve with thumb. But, I think I have found right formulas for both.
    Second thing that I would like to mention is that I don't play scales, I play lines. Lines have exact fingerings and they are not just notes within this scale that I play on this chord. They have they beginning, middle and the end so my brain knows what I have to do before I even play the line.
    Third important thing is singing of the lines. If you can sing/scat correctly your lines you will be able to play them no matter the speed. Keep in mind that tatata singing is making tatata player. So, to avoid this try to sing/scat by giving each note a drum sound. This also have other benefits, most important one is that gradually player connects him self with the groove in more organic way.
    Fourth, playing some percussion instrument will help your brain to think in front bringing the same effect like knowing your lines.
    There are many other methods to increase speed but these ones are bringing other benefits important foe improvisation and therefore I'm focusing mostly one them.

    One thing I would like to add is that I actually don't care about the speed. I care about the phrasing.

  9. #8
    Yes very correct on phrasing as Wes could play any uptempo stuff but it was his phasing. Sure Benson probably has way more actual speed than Wes did, but Wes cut the tempo on phrasing.

    So for instance I have been playing along with Jim Halls recording on Tangerine. It is about 210-220 pretty decent and swinging. I can play the melody no problem with fingers and even solo but with a pick I just destroy it.

    I am not held back at all can go to faster tempo no issues. But it remains if I want to get rid of pick I have a lot work to do. I guess I have been playing 47 years and it drives me crazy. At 20 I could sit in room all day and practice but these days my attention span is less.

    Speaking of Lenny Breau I think
    maybe the most outright technical player of any style. He is the only player to do Chet and jazz fingerstyle with total control. His right hand was Joe Pass, Chet, and true flamingo all in one. I can’t dream his lines let alone figure them out.

    Hard to teach old dog new tricks.

  10. #9

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    Mancuso has 2 different hand positions for different types of playing. For you, Deacon, you might as well make one of the hand positions the one that holds the pick?

    It's not like Matteo can play anything he wants using one continuous technique. He's become very good at switching back and forth though. I'm sure he can play Pass-like with walking bass by thumb and chord-melody by finger. But if he wants fast scalar single-note lines he's putting his thumb on the pickup edge, like he's mostly doing in that Donna Lee video.

    Tim Lerch has the switch from pick to fingers totally nailed, and shows us the details in one of his videos.

    (I'm an old dog too. It's amazing to me how well I know the things I learned 50 years ago, and how hard it is to learn and remember something new)

  11. #10

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    [QUOTE=deacon Mark;998607 I do know though that some finger-style players can pretty much move at any speed and I think of even flamingo players like Paco who had incredible single line speed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Never heard of a flamingo player before today, apparently it's a thing.

    Speed on single lines with fingers?-flamingo-jpg

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Never heard of a flamingo player before today, apparently it's a thing.

    Speed on single lines with fingers?-flamingo-jpg
    Spell checks can be a problem especially when you type by ear.

  13. #12

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    Two ideas for getting comfortable with speedy stuff.
    1. Put the metronome (yes, metronome, not backing track or some live drummer - for nailing the accuracy) at the target tempo. Loop the 3 first notes of your "thing". If this gets sharp and groovy, add the 4th. get those sharp and groovy and comfortable, then add the next until your whole line gets sharp and groovy and comfortable. It'll take a long time. ***always put the accent on the last note.
    I would suggest to avoid live drum tracks and this sort of thing at first just to be sure there is 0 wiggle room for making it "feel comfortable" while its still not 100% under control.

    2.A method to increase sync of both hands fingers.
    To check it out and see if it suits you, pick a simple short line to play. Metronome is not important here.. at first.
    Test out what would be the max speed that your fingers start to stumble.
    Start playing 2 times slower than that target tempo.
    When a note gets played, then !!!instantly!!! the next note gets ready. But only ready - meaning your both hand's fingers are on the strings, ready to pluck it. Then on the correct timing, you play that note and again, INSTANTLY the fingers "arm" the next note.

    It takes a lot of time to get this logic settled in the brains but when it's done, it's not too hard to use it with most fast lines (and much more) you can come up with.
    When able to do it, the standard routine can be : 2 times slowly(with this instant "arming"), then 4 times the desired tempo. Repeat that and it's gonna get improved a lot - the sync of two hands.
    If it gets easy enough, surely do it also with metronome.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    Spell checks can be a problem especially when you type by ear.
    Yep, or use Apple products, which are apparently smarter than we are (not).

  15. #14

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    If Iam not useing a Pick then for fast single lines I will use my index finger nail. after that it will be the index and middle played like how a bass player plays. up around the 180- 200 Bpm. I cant crack the 210 or 220

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    Spell checks can be a problem especially when you type by ear.
    "Type by ear," what a fantastic line. Hey, man, you can't even spell "phonetic" phonetically. Seriously, though, ear training works in jazz but spelling is a visual process.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    This I am sure has been ask many times but will give it a go. I play pick and finger-style much like Joe Pass would but or course without his great competence. My problem is I would like to just pretty much give up the pick except for a few things which I still like a pick sound for. The issue is speed. Playing with the pick speed is a no contest I am just much faster and when the tempo gets up I have to use the pick. I do know though that some finger-style players can pretty much move at any speed and I think of even flamingo players like Paco who had incredible single line speed.

    What is the best method for speed? I have used just middle and index alternating. I have used thumb and index with thumb on the downs and index on the ups. I have tried a hybrid approach using all 3 but still don't know for sure. My instinct this the thumb and index alternation is the fastest but the best sound I get is the index and middle alternating. I take any suggestions the experts might know. Finally it could be that frankly the pick is the fastest when all things are said and done. It could be I just need to really woodshed and know in time the speed will get there but I have been at it awhile.
    Hi,

    I will just share my experience without any advice...

    I play both with fingers and with a pick. But consider I played with fingers since I was 9 yrs old and I first began to use the pick regularly when I was about 30!!! (I was interested forst in bluegrass and then in old swig plectrum guitar styles).

    As a kid I played classical guitar - nut never liked nails, it was always a problem for me.
    In my late 20s I began to play early music on renaissance and baroque lutes - those are very light double-strung instruments with nylons or guts. You play with finger tips with very subtle touch (especially in comparison to heavy archtop or dreadnought steel strings).
    The technique is different from those common for modern guitar.
    In renaissance lute there was a period when they switched from sigle-line plectrum picking to polyphonic finger-picking but to imitate plectrum in lines they develope a special technique of alternate thumb and index fingers.
    It is known in two versions 'thumb in' (when the thumb goes under the index finger with more horizontal wrist) and 'thumb out' (when the thumb goes above index finger and hand angle close to 'Joe Pass').
    One important note: it is not only angle and fingers, it is also a special 'touch' and physiology of picking that allows to produce very strong and stable tone with just fingertips.

    Here are a few videos

    in that video you can see two pro lute playes that play terz guitars in lute technique. Note that Anton plays 'thumb out' and Anna plays traditional guitar i-m technique.
    It is not very fast though here.




    Here you can see very good lute 'thumb in' playing in virtuoso style. Look how he teaches it. And from 05:00 he plays really fast lines in that technique.
    I noticed that writ position in that style is very close to George Benson wrist position.




    Eventually I began to use that technique on guitars too (I play 'thumb in') - on steel strings it requires more strength and effort.
    (I also have problem taht when I get back to lites I am picking too heavy but that's another issue).

    As as result I am more or less ok with both pick and fingers but whenever I switch back to fingers I feel that my phrasing is more controlable... more flexible.

    And I do not like traditional guitar fingestyle technique - that moves me too much towards classical idioms which I try to avoid.

    That lute technique gives some kind of comfortable texture and feeling natural on guitar.

    And there are some things that I like to do with a pick like 'brush' strumming in old styles etc.

    By the way Mark Knopfler alternates thumb-index fingers in lines - he plays with his thumb out.

    Look this video from 03:00


  18. #17

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    Two young monsters, they both play with their fingers



    I just found out that they are about to release a song as Matteo posted this video, I hope to see them play togheder



    Quartarone on Classical Guitar and Electric





  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Don't forget that Pass kept a pick either palmed or in his mouth. As the tempo surged he would shift to the pick.
    that is correct. I watched him from the front row a couple of times. Late in his career his pick playing had faded a little and when he grabbed it to articulate some faster lines he flubbed a note and said “shit!” out loud. I saw this in a nice hotel and Joe was wearing a tux. It was a white tablecloth kind of place. There was a couple seated next to us and the guy said “what!?” after Joe said that. After seeing Joe in Hermosa Beach I was prepared for anything, and just laughed.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I'm an old dog too. It's amazing to me how well I know the things I learned 50 years ago, and how hard it is to learn and remember something new
    We get old too soon and smart too late. I got my first guitar 66 years ago and immediately set about to learn and accomplish more than was possible in far less time than it took to do it right. It only took me about 30 years to realize that I’d given myself many bad habits that had effectively halted my progress years earlier. Then it took another 30 years to unlearn or correct enough of them to let me start making progress again, this time at a reasonable pace. And that pace is clearly slower than it would have been at the beginning, despite years of experience, because I now have to pay attention to things that would have developed naturally back then.

    First and foremost was to slow down, and to be disciplined about it. Speed is only a good thing if it doesn’t come at the expense of clarity and articulation. I use a pick and/or combination of fingers, as the song and style suggest to me. I don’t play the same tune the same way each time, and I may use thumb plus one or plus two for lines. I practice with a recording, and I find that tracks with different versions / tempos / keys etc help me with control of speed and precision.

    For example, there are many versions of Mac Tough on YouTube. Pat at Yoshi’s is faster than Pat on Stone Blue. I’ll often play the faster one with fingers and then the slower one with a pick. Pre-positioning is helpful, as was already suggested. And you have to find positions that let you do it at slower speeds, because it happens too fast to be a conscious effort as speed goes up.

    Slowing down is a great way to get faster. Be patient and disciplined, or you’ll waste your first and best shot at doing it right. It’s better to do things well than to have to do them twice.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Don't forget that Pass kept a pick either palmed or in his mouth. As the tempo surged he would shift to the pick.
    I always wondered why he had a pick in his mouth when he's always playing fingerstyle.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Don't forget that Pass kept a pick either palmed or in his mouth. As the tempo surged he would shift to the pick.
    That is interesting, for his fastest single note line playing, Joe would switch to the pick he had palmed or held in his mouth. I've heard some players who can play supa fast single note lines with their fingers too.

  23. #22

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    By the way here’s a photo of Joe’s pick (from an old guitar magazine). Also I’ve only just noticed that it shows his RH nail length quite well, I’ve often wondered about that.

    Speed on single lines with fingers?-54e95a41-3ec4-4379-a1a6-501b457176c3-jpeg

  24. #23

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    "Speed is only a good thing if it doesn’t come at the expense of clarity and articulation. " Nevershouldhavesoldit

    Hi, N,
    Yes, and it should not be the only goal of "musicianship" but ,rather, only one of many talents/skills a musician has in his trick bag. . . although, some musicians have made a career of this skill.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  25. #24

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    Not that I have great speed, but a key thing is to only use the hand muscles (the muscles are in the forearm actually) on the pluck and then release and let gravity return the finger back above the string - if your are plucking down into the string, which you need to do to get any volume on an acoustic instrument, the finger should naturally return to position

  26. #25

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    ...and the video of Sean McGowan that describes his "effortless" (as he calls them) speed rolls with fingers.



    Ll.