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I don't know anything about funk, but I know something about Brazilian styles. And, there, a 16th isn't always the same thing. It's notated that way, but it isn't played that way in a typical rhythmic pattern. This has been proved electronically with plots of amplitude against time. And, the amount of the adjustment is tempo dependent, so a 16th at one tempo isn't the same as a 16th at another tempo. I understand that ride cymbal beats follow the same sort of logic, but I haven't seen electronic proof, although I imagine it exists. Because of that characteristic, it can't be notated accurately.
It would surprise me if the same thing didn't apply to funk styles.
That is, you could be exactly on the metronome and it wouldn't groove.
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03-28-2019 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
In terms of the microrhythmic aspect, I wonder if anyone has looked into this? TBH I just think of it as straight because otherwise I'll swing it like a trad jazz banjo player lol.
Some of these accents are very subtle, best picked up by lots of playing with musicians that know their stuff.
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Oh look here's an academic paper :-D
Swing in early Funk and Jazz-Funk (1967-1971): Micro-rhythmic and Macro-structural investigations
Just what you need to improve your groove, right?
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In Brazilian styles there's a 16th 8th 16th thing, as notated
But, it isn't played that way.
To my ear, the Brazilians do something akin to the Little Train That Could -- "I think I can, I think I can" with the timing of the phrase getting closer to even as it speeds up.
And, that's just the shaker.
Put a good group of them together and there's enormous subtlety.
The abstract of the article Christian posted alludes to the same thing.
Put a group together of instruments which are right on the metronome, and it won't groove.
I think it's important to be aware of this, so you're listening for the right things. Getting it under your fingers is another thing entirely. And, there's a difference between people who can play the basic groove and those who can embellish while staying strongly in the pocket.
It's the hardest thing I've tried to do in music. You can't notate it. You can't explain it. You can't even think about it in verbal terms. Rather, you have to feel it. And, the novice may not even be able to tell the difference between good groove and poor groove. You have to acclimate to hear it.
This has been studied a lot. Google "microtiming in jazz".Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-28-2019 at 06:21 PM.
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Professional musicians have to be able to groove with a click these days. We are in the days of pro tools and an obsession with being able to micromanage every aspect of the recording.
I think you sometimes have to learn to play a little on top or behind the click depending on context, but sometimes people can be a real stickler about playing in the middle of the click. To me, that sounds a bit dead and lifeless.
Add to that the fact that sometimes you might need to track all the instruments separately and apart and that makes it even harder.
A rhythm section in jazz (and i think Brazilian music too) needs a bit of tension in the beat to swing.
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as a bass player, I definitely play on different parts of the beat depending on a drummer. a typical NYC jazz drummer is gonna play on top of the beat, and therefore if the bass is pushing also we're just gonna speed up, so I try to stay in the center. but, a tenor player recently pointed out to me that folks from midwest/chicago tend to play down the middle of the beat, and in that situation I play a little on top.
I think stanton moore's "groove alchemy" has the best, most practice analysis of this. it's a drum book, but it's great in terms of how to practice playing "between the cracks" which is that area between eighth/triplet/16th that musicians sometimes call "hard" or "soft" triplets.
He also talks about the snare being slightly laid back on a backbeat, and the way he describes it has been super helpful for me: you essentially want a flam between the hi-hat and snare. that advice alone has gotten me closer to playing backbeats correctly than any other advice.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I haven’t come across that situation of a click being subdivided like that, but I have heard about producers straightening out percussion tracks on the time line lol.
What the hell is wrong with people?
BTW the st-r-e-e-e-t-c-h-y nature of time, I feel like there’s potential for a type of corporate rubato within the tempo. I feel this with Zeppelin for instance to quite a pronounced degree. A lot of the older music has waves of tempo variation that add a subtle human aspect to the groove.
Perhaps it might match up to a steady pulse every 4 bars or something but the in between isn’t uniformly divided.
A music edu theorist on my college reading list that I have started reading, Edwin Gordon has the concept of the macrobeat, which is interesting.
A lot of his ideas would be of interest to this forum, if people haven’t heard of him.
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The samba pulse is, as I understand it, tempo dependent. So, the exact position in time for that last note varies with tempo. I think this is comparable to the stretch of a ride beat, which is more pronounced at slower tempi.
In 2/4, I think notes placed on the two are played on the beat. But, I wouldn't be shocked if that varies also.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by pcsanwald
Can't notate it. Can't describe it in words. You either feel it, or you don't.
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The secrets of funk by Leo Nocentelli:
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