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A possible different path:
Every interval has 2 viable fingering options.
Learn every fingering for playing half of a scale all over the neck.
Learn these oriented around every scale degree.
4 nps
3 + 1
2 + 2
1 + 3
Then simply learn to chain them together as needed.
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08-15-2018 08:22 AM
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That's closer to how I approach scales. This also helps you be always aware of the scale degree you're playing and the quality of the degree (b6th, natural 7th etc.)
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I also recently started singing solfege names of the notes I'm playing when I practice. I don't do it all the time of course only parts of the session. It is easier to pronounce the notes as one syllables and I think it makes aural learning of the intervals quicker.
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great for reading music too. okay sorry for digression
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Yea... getting technical skills together.... learning how to play your instrument.... is one thing.
Getting your musical and performance skills together is another.
Anything will work... if the system gets where you want to get. Personally... you need to get to the point where there are no fingerings... you can just play anything anywhere on the fretboard you want without having to figure out how to finger it. You choose fingerings to help with phrasing and articulations..... the style, feel and resulting sound.
The point of fingerings is for the fretboard to become one big 12 fret fingering that repeats.
After you choose and finish the process... you are free to play whatever you choose. Jazz isn't really work stuff out memorize fingerings and perform.... Jazz is more about having the skill to work stuff out live.... being able to play what you haven't worked out, interact with the music and musicians. But being able to play in a jazz style really isn't for most.... but who cares. If you have the time and love playing.... playing jazz music or tunes is fun. You don't need to be a jazz player to play jazz tunes...
I can tell you that if your starring at your fretboard when playing.... your system doesn't work that well for you.
If your jumping around the fretboard... that's cool, great effect... but if the jumping around creates your phrazing and your again staring at your fretboard... again maybe your system doesn't work that well for you.
If you need to be playing all the time.... to have good technique... again maybe your system doesn't work that well for you.
If when your sight reading... how well does your fingering system work?
Again... you need to decide what approach you want to use.... but you should also choose where you want to get. What are the tests or checks that would help you decide if the system works?
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I would:
1) pick a tune
2) select an area of the guitar ( for me there is just three areas under the 12th fret, i dont play open strings)
3) play the first chord of the tune in the chosen area, try to find a shape that encompass as much strings as possible, all the (basic)4 notes chords are just really 6 string chords.
4) figure the scale and arpeggio that go with the chord in that area
5) improvise on that chord in the chosen area
6) go to the second chord, stay in the chosen area
7)etc
Next time that chord will show up in your mind you will have everything you need to do single lines, chord melody etc. 12 notes, about 5 basic qualities, 3 areas, 180 chords and youre done! This way you just have to remember the chord shape that goes with the chord name.
After awhile the areas will slowly group into a large all encompassing area on the fretboard.
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I thing takemitsu is having fun...
Maybe an approach might be... becoming aware of what your trying to learn.
Say Phrygian Dominant... Which would be the 5th degree of Harmonic Minor. And is the basic default altered Dominant chord or collection of notes... scale arpeggio etc... that most major /minor functional music.... is derived from.
The Dominant chord from the Relative Minor. ( A-7 is the relative Minor of Cmaj7) Generally most traditional tunes use the Relative Minor or the VI-7 chord as the default Minor harmonic and melodic reference when composing, arranging and soloing. And to create a Dominant V7 chord they use the borrowed V7 chord from VI-... which pulls from Harmonic Minor.
This help keep Function the same as Major........ Tonic... Sub dominant and Dominant Harmonic, (chordal), movement.
Tonic...............T
Sub Dominant...SD
Dominant..........D
Tonic.....SD.....D.......T
Cma7 Fma7 G7 Cmaj7
I .........IV........V....I
T........SD......D......T
A-7.... D-7.....E7... A-7
I-.......IV-......V7.....I-
So when you play... use that Phrygian Dom. Chord or implied scale....
Using chord pattern above...
You can play A-7 aeolian... or 1 b3 5 b7 and do whatever you choose, and for the V7 chord, you could use E7b9b13... which is the 5th degree of Amin Harmonic minor. (phrygian dom.)
This would be basic starting point.... There are traditional voice leading guidelines for how notes should move. But generally when playing in a jazz style... that again would be basic Vanilla. I personally use those voice leading guide lines for what not to play. They're already implied. But this would be where you make your choices.
I also... when using Phrygian Dominant or V7b9b13 in a dominant functional application.... (E7b9b13 going to A-7)..... also use relative subs to help expand the basic E7 chord... I might spell Cmaj7#5,( the relative Maj chord of E7b9b13), and G#dim7b9b11b13, (the expanded relative chord of E7b9b13).... All using the same collection of notes.... as the E7b9b13 which is derived from Harmonic Minor, The phrygian dominant version.
You could just call the chords extensions.... and just play Phrygian Dominant scale or arpeggio..... but it's different. Your probable not close to being able to keep getting deeper....so getting back to fingerings.....
How would you finger ....using those subs as an application for playing E7b9b13... E phrygian dominant. (subs Cmaj7#5 and G#Dim b9b11b13)
There are many other Harmonic organizations or approaches for using scales to develop improv.... Different approaches to create relationships using that E7 phry. dom. as reference.
Then when getting into Dorian b2.... Melodic Minor.... there are very different approaches for how to use the scales, arpeggios etc.
I generally relate Melodic Minor To Dorian.... and would call what you think of as Dorian b9... as Phrygian nat.6.... much easier to use functionally when soloing .
A Melodic Minor
A-ma7 .... Dorian maj7
B-7b9........Phry. maj13... easy to get into that V7susb9 sound
There are many ways to approach using MM and chords and scales from MM.... (Dorianb9)
Diminished and whole tone scales are symmetric scales.... generally for effect or to camouflage standard chord patterns or scale patterns.
There are harmonic functional movement patterns... but very vanilla mechanical, not much soul. There is the BH guitar players approach.
Many seem to like it.... I'm not one of them.Last edited by Reg; 08-15-2018 at 06:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
The fact that phrygian dominant is the chord scale of E7b9b13 doesn't mean one should spell this chord as Phrygian dominant scale. Playing harmonic minor from the the root of it's dominant is not a particularly more meaningful way of playing over this chord than starting from other chord tones. As you said starting from the 6th (Cmaj7#5) or 3rd (G#dim7...) or other tones all options.
So going back to the OP's question of whether to learn the Phrygian Dominant scale in 12 positions. Why not aim at mastering Harmonic Minor scale so one can play it from any chord tone, be able spell out any inversions of its embedded triads, 4 note chords with all possible rhythms.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Well, my classmates and I learned Leavitt's 12 fingerings for all diatonic scales in less than 9 months (Major, Mel. Minor, Harm. Minor, and Harm. Major). Lots of chords and arpeggios too. It was a cram but the point is that it doesn't take that long.
That said, I don't play all 12 fingerings anymore.
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Originally Posted by djg
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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rsergio - I suppose no-one has yet asked you the most important question - one that a good teacher would ask you at the very start - What kind of Jazz are you interested in? If it's straight ahead, Swing, Bop, Hard Bop etc then that requires a different approach (along with different tools) when compared to more modern CST based styles where scales and modes might be more useful.
What a few of us have been saying may be based on the assumption that you want to get some Bop tools in the shed (the best grounding perhaps for all Jazz styles). But you may be more into Fusion or something in which case learning the various ways to embellish chord tones may be of less interest. Who are your favourite players?
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Originally Posted by rsergio
Starting string: 6
Starting finger: 1 - stretched (i.e. there are two frets between the notes played by 1rst and 2nd fingers)
Starting string: 6
Starting finger: 4. On the 4th string the 4th finger stretches up for the leading tone.
Starting string: 5
Starting finger: 1 - stretched (i.e. there are two frets between the notes played by 1rst and 2nd fingers)
Starting string: 5
Starting finger: 2 On the 6th and 1rst strings the 1rst finger stretches back for the subdominant tone
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Originally Posted by djg
Lot of practical wisdom here.
One of the things I do each morning now is play at least a dozen heads. Just the heads. No backing track, no metronome, just play the heads. Billie's Bounce, Oleo, Cottontail, Honeysuckle Rose, All of Me, Out of Nowhere, whatever, just play at least a dozen of them. Any dozen. Just do it. And it's done a lot for my playing.
One of the things some teachers stress is that great melodies are great lines. Playing those lines, making them sing, requires attention to phrasing, dynamics, contrast, etc.
I play some Herb Ellis lines (usu 8-bar phrases) every day too. Does me a lot of good.
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To the OP - Lots of good advice here - BUT - one of the things you'll notice that we do on the forum is weigh in with a lot of "either/or" advice. Meaning, "don't do X, do Y instead!". Technique vs. tunes and improv study vs. "just copy lines" seem to be the most frequently pontificated themes.
Well, serious musicians do both. They can't afford to do either/or. Effective time management in practice routines is key.
Regarding your opening question, learning to shift while playing scales, chords, arpeggios (or anything) is a critical skill for guitarists. All music requires it.
A couple of other things to keep in mind, regarding shifting. A good solo makes use of space in it's phrasing. Horn players set the tone in jazz and they have to breath, hence, use space. It's more song/singer like in its sound anyway. It's more human. Audiences relate to it. So that's one mitigating factor relative to the shifting challenge.
Another is that when improvising you have an increased level of control over what is to be played vs. playing something that is written. If you will watch some great improvising guitarists you will often see how they "burn" in one area/position of the fretboard, then move to another area and burn again, with either silence or something less busy happening between position/area playing.
In other words, your fastest most articulate playing needn't happen while your shifting. That's an impractical/implausible expectation.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Now take any key you played in open position and "be the nut" to make it movable. Open C becomes the C in CAGED:
Code:3--4--|--5-- 7--1--|--2-- 5--|--6--|-- 2--|--3--4-- 6--|--7--1-- 3--4--|--5--
Starting string: 6
Starting finger: 1 - stretched (i.e. there are two frets between the notes played by 1rst and 2nd fingers)
Is the open position for the key of E:
Code:1--|--2--|--3-- 5--|--6--|--7-- ---3--4--|--|-- ---7--1--|--2-- 4--|--5--|--6-- 1--|--2--|--3--
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I'd like to point out a few more things. Scales can have less than seven and more than seven notes. Scales can repeat over one octave or two or three. Scales may have either the same or different notes descending. Scales may be constructed to place chord tones every second note, or two out of three notes, or one out of four, or any two out of three notes, or one out of three. You can change between any scales at any point you choose, that's what real melodies do.
A few examples.
1.CDEG,CGDC a four one octave scale same in both directions.
2.CDEbE GAbAC EFF#G ,CAAbG EEbDC GGbFE ( a two octave asymmetrical scale with chord tones placed on every first and fourth note ten notes ascending and ten descending. Good for blues, bluegrass and polyrhythmic games with the listener.)
3.CDE GAC EFG, CFG EFG CAG.
A three note version which can be used from which 2 (above) can be derived.
4.CDEFGA,CAGFEDC. A six note scale which is the basis form like Shady Grove and a lot of folk tunes which are mislabelled as Dorian. It's two triads added together.
5.CDEGA,CAGED. A pentatonic scale which can be used to derive 4.
6. CDEbGA,CAGEbDA, A different kind of pentatonic scale
7. CDEbGAB,CBAGEbDA, a six note version of 6(above)
8, CDEbG ABCEb GG#A , a nice scale based on the geometry of the guitar.
I didn't get these from a book, and I don't find the musics which use them to be passe.
Building out from the chord is the way which works for me. If I am improvising then I will just make up the scales as I go along. If I want to sound 'out' then I pretend I am playing over a different chord, it's fun and I couldn't give a monkeys wether it is hip or not. I will have a reason for which chord that I pretend to myself that I am playing over but I wont go into that.
Here is another way to say it, I have no interest in reinventing a new melodic language I want my own language to grow organically from the languages which I, and most humans, have grown up hearing and which, to my ear, represent a continuity of musical evolution. I feel that denying this continuity and failing to love and study the entirety of the known history of music is what has made jazz irrelevant to most people.
I like tonality and I don't particularly want to try and comment on it ironically with each and every phrase or comping choice. That soon gets boring, because that is ONE idea and we need more than one idea or we cannot surprise and delight the listener.
You'll find scales like the above in the licks that you can extract from tunes like Sweet Georgia brown and the like, you know the bits that make fools of the books that presume to give you the 'right' scales and the 'right' way of constructing melodies and the 'right' way to sound modern. Irish Jigs have some of the others. Almost no tune sticks exclusively to one scale.
Have fun and follow your ear, and see what actually sticks for you. Be wary of rebuilding someone else's Great Wall of China, especially if you don't want to live in China.
D.Last edited by Freel; 08-16-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by rsergio
I spent thousands of hours practicing all the scales in too many positions, and not only do I feel it was a waste of time, but it actually created habits that were difficult to "undo". I should have just spent a little time on arps, Bebop scales, Blues scales and the various symmetrical scales until I got the sound of them in 5 positions, and then just concentrate on developing language. If you don't wanna take it from me, go find the book "Thinking In Jazz", where the Author goes deep into unlocking the secrets the greats knew that you don't (yet). Through dozens of interviews with the greats, scales are only mentioned as something they learned as youngsters. But many had progressed to have killer chops / lines while they were still teenagers by appropriating phrases from their favourite players....
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Harmonic minor is BASIC. How you APPROACH applying things like harmonic minor is a separate question. It's not either/or.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-16-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Hey PP, hope you're doing well. Only a couple of issues here. Leavitt was very much old school. His sound is very mid-century. His method books were written in '64, '68, and '71. Kind of Blue, In a Silent Way, and Bitches Brew didn't seem to make too much of an impression on him.
His method books were more about teaching technique that supports jazz as opposed to jazz itself. No blues scales, no bends, and last but not least - no modal stuff. The sound is more of a plectrum guitar aesthetic. His method includes VERY extensive arpeggio studies, including 5-note arpeggios out the wazoo.
If your position is that his method was "all about CST", please explain the lessons in Volume 3 on pages 54, 55, 60, and 98.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-17-2018 at 11:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
The OP is interested in old school forms of Jazz. The old school greats did not spend a disproportionate amount of their practice time on scales, otherwise they would not have been able to have developed fully formed jazz vocabulary by the time many of them reached 20 years of age. Not everyone will agree with this, but I think we owe it to novice players to let them be aware that over reliance on scales will be at the expense of time they could be spending working on their devices. And here, unfortunately the usual texts are not so useful either (Baker, Coker etc). Too many options!
The old greats learned directly from their band mates, on the street, or from copping lines off the records. Stealing just one line and converting it into an etude for various uses is way more useful time spent practicing than just running scales. Many of us have heard the Clifford Brown practice tapes, very few diatonic scales, it's all about his devices and patterns, he had a ton of them. They all did. They all knew they're scales too, but the point is they quickly moved on to the important stuff, whereas many of us guitarists learning after the 70's were under the mistaken impression that scales were the key to kingdom. If the greats knew how many years fools like me did little else but practice scales for years, I'm sure they'd laugh their asses off!
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My understanding is Leavitt's 12 position scales are to facilitate reading. You can read using any system, but Leavitt's system is based on stretches rather than shifts which is supposed to allow you to read without having to look at the fretboard.
1- Jazz is an aural tradition, you are not supposed to read on the band stand. However it's extremely useful to be able to read even at a very elementary level for one's own development with any system. That said having very good reading skills will help you be competitive for broader range of gigs, studio gigs, gigs outside of Jazz, big bands, concert bands etc. But if that's not your goal, Leavitt's system is not for you.
2- Many working pro's with strong reading skills do not use Leavitt's system. It's by no means an industry standard.
3- You really don't want to use the system for improvisation. Shifts unleash many of the expressive elements of guitar.
4- Cello and Violin players tend to have superior reading skills to guitar players. They shift all over the place when they read. Doesn't seem to prevent them from becoming some of the best readers.
5- Segovia was all about shifts. I bet he was a good reader.
6- Nonetheless shifting does complicate reading. World is a complex place.Last edited by Tal_175; 08-17-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
1. I did not find the music in the Leavitt books sufficiently well composed to truly develop sight reading, for the reason above.
5. In jazz shifts should generally be in time. Segovia was a master of using portamenti to announce rubato, generally jazz should be in time. I doubt he was a good sight reader, not that I have any evidence. It is just an alternative prejudice, a gut feeling.
D.
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