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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Paragraph 1: All great violinists should be able to play Paganini(good example!) however, some choose not to for personal reasons of taste/repertoire.
Paragraph 2: Yes. A great Jazzer should be able to play CP favorites. I think CP for an intermediate/advanced sax player is very accessible due to the nature/morphology of the instrument. However, not so much for Jazz guitarists(speed potential for CP licks) since the instrument and technique are so different. Much more difficult. Good points.
Play live . . . Marinero
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01-05-2021 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Anyway one of the handy things about what Troy calls DWPS is it works for electric and acoustic; just modify your hand position accordingly and use different movements; but you are still using downward rest strokes.
I suppose some (dogmatic) teachers universally advocate floating wrist. I’m glad I never listened to any teachers on the subject of pick technique... it was clear that wasn’t going to work for rock guitar. I played with muted technique for years, only changing when I needed to.
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I think Marinero can’t play Charlie Parker head so therefore it’s OK for jazz guitarists not to? ;-)
(I honestly don’t care either way, I just think it’s funny; play what you like.)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
If I'm basically forced to teach one hand position for picking, I don't teach the floating thing only because I'm less personally familiar with it, I can more easily explain/help/problem solve students with grips that are similar to mine. But I've seen enough people play great with that orientation that I don't have real reason to believe it can't work as a default - I think most people, like me, just have fewer tools for ironing out the kinks when it comes to instructing another player.
It's a bit like...is it less common (on electric, to be more specific) because it doesn't work as well, on average, or is it less common because the ways of executing it are less well known and less conducive to general guess work? Shrug.
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I think picking mostly comes from the wrist, and the arm is only used for warp speed runs of short duration. Pinching forefinger and thumb strikes me as less efficient, but I believe it's used by Wakenius. The 'gypsy' players seem to have worked out economy picking for cross-string picking. Alternate strokes when picking inside strings is the least effective for speed because the pick needs to double back on itself. Having an abundance of twitch muscles gives some players an edge. You'd think minimal movement and anchoring would add mph and needed support, but look at Pat Martino where neither seems apparent. It's worth remembering though the arm is always supported at some point, either at the elbow, the wrist, or fingers.
The use of a metronome is very important in my view—at least for jazz. For uptempo tunes, lines (phrases) need to be played consistently sometimes for several bars. Lines will have both paths of least resistance that tempt faster execution, and challenging fingerings that pull back execution. The tempo is therefore set by the more challenging fragment of a line. A metronome will highlight these points, and can help overcome the speed bumps, by practicing incremental increases in repetition. It's amazing how much faster you can play than you thought possible.
I've always been struck by the inefficiency of the guitar. A tiny slither of plastic needs to strike a thin metal wire with such precision to sound a note. A piano, by contrast, does this for you with mechanical precision. I've come round to thinking some of the most effective picking workarounds are found in developing hammer-ons and pull-offs. Sylvain Luc, Pat Metheny, and Joe Pass seemed to have arrived at the same conclusion.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Charlie Parker head? Translation?
Play live . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Originally Posted by vsaumarez
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Play live . . . Marinero
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"Head"... been using that term since the 70s. Probably been around a lot longer than that, not old enough to have used it before then though. Such a common term in jazz, as common as the term "melody".
I've tried to develop some speed, mainly to be able to play bebop. Never got fast enough to play Charlie Parker heads up to tempo. They still sound real good at slower tempos.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
Head is a term in common use in jazz circles, usually referring to what you might call a bop contrefact, line etc.
Of course I have no idea, but I’m guessing from your posts here bop lines probably aren’t your thing so much? As I say I don’t really have much invested either way.
In would say; In my experience playing a repertoire of CP heads is generally considered a rite of passage for any serious jazz musician, guitarist or otherwise. That is if you call yourself specifically a jazz player and didn’t play any I think it would be considered a bit ... odd? (maybe not if you were a trad player.) not everyone knows tons of them, but all players know at least a few. They tend to get called at most straightahead pickup gigs.
They all pose challenges for the picking hand. As technical etudes and warm ups I don’t think there’s anything better, precisely because they are so unguitaristic.Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2021 at 05:51 PM.
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""Head"... been using that term since the 70s. Probably been around a lot longer than that," Fep
Hi, F,
Never heard the term in Chicago during the 60's/70's . . . doesn't mean that it wasn't used elsewhere. And, I never shook my head, winked, or picked my nose. At most, a glance-- but even that was not really necessary. The term we used was "top" and it was never used playing . . . only in rehearsal. I wouldn't bet my mustache but I wouldn't be surprised if its popularity came from the academic teaching of Jazz that needed terms for everything and gained popularity in the 70's and beyond. And . . .I promise . . . I'll never use it again.
Play live . .. . Marinero
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The term is used by jazz musicians according to George Benson:
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Originally Posted by Marinero
So I'm confused as to...do you think playing that stuff on guitar is 'pyrotechnics' yet not on the sax? Are 8th notes at bebop tempos "supersonic"? Is that kind of vocabulary not part of the basic jazz repertoire? Is it easy to play that stuff without any attention to "speed" and pick technique?
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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The thing is to become so comfortable with speed that it becomes just another arrow in the quiver of expression. Can't be the only thing you do. Who wants that?
I get that lots of folks view it as folly, but it's not in the hands of an artist.
And how can someone say that speed is not a requirement of the classical repertoire? I saw Horowitz in his last performance at Carnegie Hall. He burned. He was a rock star. At 83 years old. That's even older than Mick (I think)
Myself, I'm currently working on Inner Urge because I like the head and the changes. And I like the challenge. How you gonna make sense of the last 8 bars without being able to burn? Been doing serious 'nome work on that. I'm learning things that can be put to use in other ways and other tempos.
BTW: the jazz melody has been called the head for as long as I can remember. Started hearing it in the late sixties on the west coast. In Canada even.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by grahambop
O.K. G,
I'll play. Are these Benson's words or Goldsher's? Did Benson talk like that when describing other musicians? Was it Goldsher's terminology to describe the process("head," "trading fours") in such an academic way to explain the process to neophytes to music? Or was it Benson? It sounds, to me, like a writer writing about musicians in a glamorized/informative way so the general public could relate to the information and be engaged. I could be wrong. However, I played steady for a few pennies short of ten years in clubs, on the road, in small combos and big bands in the late 60's to late 70's. I never heard a player say during a performance "Let's trade 4's" or "Play the head" before a tune. When a player soloed during a performance, he set the length that the next soloist usually followed unless the other guy ran out of ideas and played less time. I, also, never knew anyone who called other musicians "cats." Not that I have anything against felines but we used a person's name when referring to each other or . . . others ,not in our circle, who were playing around town. . . "Hey, PJ's playing at Big Mike's on Wells." Maybe they talked like that in the 40's/50'/early 60's . . . but I wasn't playing for pay then. And, I will promise you on Gideon's Bible with one hand placed in reverence on its faux leather bound cover . . . I NEVER USED THE WORD "CAT" to describe anything other than a 4 legged feline or a woman with a bad attitude. What a difference a day makes!
Play live . . . Parker heads, Trading 4's, Cat-Man-Do . . . God, I hate that talk . . . Just play . . . Marinero
P.S. And, for the record, during the Hippie Years, I never used the word "Man" or "Dude" when referring to another person . . . "Hey, Man . . .Hey, Dude . . . that's cool." I guess I've missed a lot of life. M
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In my experience with older players,when they are tired of people soloing the band leader taps his head and means play the melody or go back to the top. They use hand signals for keys,too. one up is G, two fingers down is b flat, go the bridge is curved movement. Circle motion is turnaround. Makes it easy in noisy places!
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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I think "cats" is a very dated term, maybe the 60s or earlier. I'm guessing "head" is dated also as it was passed down from the old guys, Joe Pass used the term.
I've heard Benson use the term "cats"
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Originally Posted by fep
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Originally Posted by Marinero
I could be wrong.
Ed Cherry at Small Last Night (6/3/24)
Today, 09:07 PM in The Players