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This has been mentioned as a problem by guitarists as diverse as Larry Coryell and Jimmy Bruno.
Larry Coryell said that his guitar teacher wanted him to do it, but he found his own way of doing it, without using alternate picking.
Jimmy Bruno talks about having problems playing Clifford Brown and Oscar Peterson lines using only alternate picking, and then says that one of the first things he challenges a new student with is playing a two octave G Major scale in 2nd Position at a fast tempo as mentioned above- up and down.
Invariably, he says, the student can't do it cleanly, so he demonstrates how he does it using his method of picking (not alternate).
Using a metronome set at 160 bpm or higher, try to play a two-octave G scale using alt. picking, four notes a beat (16th notes) starting on low G and ending on low G all in 2nd position (no 3-note-per-string fingerings). Can you do it cleanly, without dropping a 16th note?
If you don't use alt. picking, how do you play it, without using 3 note-per-string fingerings and slurs (hammer ons and pull-offs)?
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02-27-2018 02:38 AM
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To help the thread get going, since I'm really interested in this subject, will just say, I can hardly tremolo pick one string at that speed.
Can't wait to hear all the examples.
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Somebody please, help! I can't do it either. Experimenting, I find I do have a few phrases and runs that I tend to use, that I can do at that tempo or indeed a bit faster, although not entirely with alternate picking - I throw in the odd hammer on and pull-off in places. Not sure how I got those really - just evolved somehow. But I won't feel like a proper guitarist now until I can do that 2 octave G major semiquavers at 160.
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Yes... I use to do that as kid... but you do need to have the right number of notes... same thing with different rhythmic patterns.
The number of attacks need to fit within the time. In your example.... you need to include going up to A on first string and then down to F# on low string to set up starting over. Next is to start playing two octave arpeggios. triads, 7th, 9th and 13th chords'
Them move on to Harmonic and Melodic Minors... and Harm. Maj. then Pentatonic both Maj/Min and Dominant it never ends
I use alternate picking for starting reference... and then would play around with different patterns and picking etc...
I think I've posted picking at 300mm just playing up beats years ago.... but this generally isn't the type of thing one should make a very important goal. Just something to help work on technique
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Bruno or economy picking.
Basically:
- Alternate pick on one string,
- when moving to a higher pitched string (lower toward the floor) pick down,
- when moving to a lower pitched string (closer to the ceiling) pick up.
"The Art of Picking" by Jimmy Bruno.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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Originally Posted by Reg
Larry Coryell's guitar teacher thought it was. Jimmy Bruno thinks it is. Johnny Smith thought it was.
As Reg said, you have to alter it in some way to fit the time. I add a 'curley Q' of an extra F# and G on top to solve the problem, but you could also do it Reg's way, or even set your metronome to 7/4 if you have a DB-90.
But the real problem is the second octave. Playing a one octave scale doesn't present the problem of having to alternate pick across the entire six strings. Playing the two octave scale using the three note-per-string method only uses five strings.But adding the second octave presents the main problem of this exercise.
When you play the first octave up and down, everything is cool; the down stroke begins and ends on the low G. But when you begin the second octave, you're starting on an up-stroke this time.
So you've got to be able to play the higher octave G scale starting on an up-stroke. Can you do this at 320bpm? Can you even do it at 300bpm? Can you even do it repetitively as 16th notes without a metronome, and not screw up the picking, lose the feeling of 'one' as you repeat it, and wind up collapsing like a quivering bag of jelly like the utter failure you are?
That last part was stolen from Brother Theodore.
So maybe Reg is right; this is a meaningless exercise that you play in Mel bay as a "kid", and then concern yourself with more important matters. But maybe it points out what could be thought of as the main flaw in alt. picking. Or maybe it points out a challenge that must be conquered if you want to play like Martino or JS?
Or maybe it forces you to switch to the Chuck Wayne school of picking (as his students, and students of his students did).
This can lead to subjective arguments that I have no desire to get involved in.
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No chance ... can‘t pick 16th at 160 bpm; doesn‘t matter what the string changing strategy is ... couldn‘t do it on a single string. Maybe burst pick with hope to do sustainably xxx years down the road ... I have listened a lot to David Gilmour lately - it doesn‘t matter how fast we can pick - it matters how we express ourselves with music. Just sayin‘
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Originally Posted by Ren
Playing from A on the 6th it's D-U all the way up to C on the 1rst string. Same as an alternate picker would do. Pick down on all ascending string moves.
It's descending that get's tricky for me to guess and I don't have the book handy at the moment. I pick alternate style and starting on C on the 1rst it's still just D-U all the way down to A on the 6th. It's slower for me to descend. It feels less efficient/economical.
I think Bruno style would be:
D-U on the 1rst, then U-D all the way from there. I think you could start with U-D and stay with that all the way too. Pick up on all descending string moves.
Just guessin' though.
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Thanks, this is getting to the crux of what I’m trying to understand; the Bruno method can get you into the same glitches as alternate picking, where your pick is not optimally positioned when you change strings. This glitch will occur ascending if you play an even number of notes on a string, ending in an upstroke. So I’m wondering if some of our speedy players get around this by slurring, hammering, or avoiding this glitch some other way.
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I think they practice their butts off.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
- I can almost, just almost do it. However, I do not know how clean is clean enough? Is some sort of strings muting allowed, or not?
- Starting "on beat", I can do all down strokes in 1/8, both the scale and G13 arpeggio. Hard part is pinky bar/ roll on fret 5/ strings 3 and 2.
- Starting "off beat", I can do all up strokes in 1/8, both the scale and Am13 arpeggio. No hard parts.
From above, it's obvious that I move my hand fast enough. I should be able to play alternate 1/16, using motions btw consecutive "strokes" in one direction as strokes in another. After one D I have a motion to position my hand for another D. That motion should be used as U. That is the logic behind alternate picking.
Unfortunately, my brain can not do it. I have to think of each D and U as a separate motion. I can not just use the motion that is already there.
- Learning to use what is already there is the way to go.Last edited by Vladan; 03-02-2018 at 04:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ren
- Alternate pick on one string,
- when moving to a higher pitched string (lower toward the floor) pick down,
- when moving to a lower pitched string (closer to the ceiling) pick up.
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Yea... I believe it's important if your going to play professional and with many different performers and different music....
The main reason I started and still use alternate picking as my Basic Reverence.... is because it has no physical articulations. It's strong weak and naturally becomes less defining .
The other obvious reason... there is no thinking or memorization required.... it's the same any and every where.
The downsides are you need a very relaxed and efficient picking hand. Also the arm etc...
I do believe those 1 2 3 4 finger patterns I posted years ago, are the only true approach to developing pure picking technique to help with crossing strings buy itself...Maybe not only... but they work fast. I used them as a kid... took about a year to get picking chops up.
The other thing.... which is required... no one needs to play fast etc... but much of performing jazz, (and other music), requires being able to feel music with subdivisions that are usually much faster than the basic tune or performance appears and sounds. It's difficult to perform with musicians when they don't have technical skills.... it's like getting stuck in the slow zone... not bad or wrong, but can put dampers on the music. Part of the difference between memorizing something fast and being able to perform at faster tempos.
Again... this is one skill set and needs to be worked on with all skills etc...
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Originally Posted by Reg
Shredding is the opposite of this, and has nothing to do with good jazz.
Can you post a link to the 1 2 3 4 finger patterns you posted?
Are they the permutations of the the four chromatic notes- e.g. 1234, 1324, 1342, 1324, etc...?
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After some more time ...
I can do it all upstrokes, scale and Am 13 arpeggio, in 1/8 starting on off beat, not a big deal actually. The day before, I was wrongly trying to do something much harder. (I edited previous post)
Switching to shorter scale neck, with hi gain distortion. I can do the scale 1/16 @ 151 bpm, clean enough for my standards. Likely it would not pass with Bruno and Zucker might say I'm truly locked at not more than 60 bpm, but, hey ...
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTubeLast edited by Vladan; 03-02-2018 at 07:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I use to play from 3rd position up to 10th and back down
Starting on low E string and up to high E string and back down, then up one fret etc...
Then on 4 string groups, (arpeggios), starting on low E string and back down... then up a fret etc...
Then start on High E string and play in reverse, 4 string group but down and back up etc...
They get both hands working together fast... I might have made a video? I'll look.
1234....2341....3412....4123
1243....2314....3421....4132
1342....2413....3124....4231
1324....2431....3142....4213
1423....2134....3241....4312
1432....2143....3214....4321
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Originally Posted by sgcim
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by Frank67
Practicing just picking on one string has helped me a lot. just speed it up gradually. I bet you could play 4 16th notes consecutively at that tempo.... just keep playing those short bursts and then gradually increase the number of notes in each burst, until you can just play them over and over.
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Apologies for not having read all the other replies thoroughly, but to answer the survey, if picking every note, I can do this easily if:
1. 3nps or cage fingering + economy picking, all up and all down easy, changing directions mid line a little harder.
2. Combination of 2 notes and 4 notes per string (Even number of notes per string) and 'one way pick slanting' while alternate picking (it's technically both alternate and economy in this case)
At this point I might be able to alternate pick the 3nps in each direction at that tempo but I'd have to sit with a guitar and fiddle with it to get it clean - not something I work on much.
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I think playing at 150 bpm
and learning or getting used to jumping to double time would be much more productive.
And halftime..
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Most effective method that I know for increasing speed is doing short speed bursts during scale practice. It's amazing how much faster you can play accurately if you only played say 3 to 8 notes as opposed to longer runs. The idea is to get a feel for the next level of speed initially by "getting there" in short bursts. Once you start hearing yourself in that speed and get used to the coordination you can increase the number of notes played fast.
So, say, initially you set a tempo that's just beyond your reach for 2 octaves of major scale. Then, start playing 3 quarter notes and 4 16th notes per bar (or 3 quarter and 3 triplet). Then 2 quarter notes and 8 16th notes and so forth. There are different was you can do this of course. You can play 8th notes instead of quarter for the slow notes. The goal is to play all in 16th notes in that tempo. Then you can increase the tempo and start over. That's over the course of several weeks most likely.
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I just posted this to point out that the reason why it's so difficult to alternate pick a two octave major scale in one position at a fast speed is because you have to pick the second octave starting on an up stroke.
Try picking just the second octave scale on an upstroke, and adding the ninth at the top and the leading tone (maj7) at the bottom, so you wind up starting on an upstroke each time you repeat it- eg. G A B C D E F# G A G F# E D C B A G F#/ G A B etc...
What tempo can you play it at if you keep playing it over and over again with a metronome? I can play it as 16th notes at only 132 bpm.
I thought I could blow through the two octave scale at 160, but i realized I was always off one note, because of the difficulty that starting the second octave on the upstroke presents.
This might explain the comment one poster made saying "I think they just practice their butts off". The most accomplished jazz players who use mainly use alternate picking, Pat Martino and Johnny Smith have been reported as practicing 12 hours a day (Smith) and Martino was once reported as practicing 36 hours straight once!
Both stressed the importance of being able to pick everything both ways; starting on a downstroke and starting on an upstroke.
While you can have fine technique practicing Reg's 1 2 3 4 permutations, such exercises don't involve solving the picking problems mentioned above.
You can solve the problems by using Troy Grady's pick slanting and other techniques, but it's clear that they don't work in all situations or for everyone.
Or you can adopt some type of economic picking, legato technique etc...Last edited by sgcim; 03-07-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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As it relates to actual playing situations, isn't this all too calculated? Counting how many notes per string you are going to play so you can land on either a downstroke or an upstroke. It reminds me of the downward/upward pickslanting thing. Do players actually calculate how they are going to pick as they are playing? "OK, now I have to play three notes on this string in this ascending lick so I can land on a upstroke on the next string." Shouldn't improv be more spontaneous than that?
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I'm a bit unsure what you mean by 2nd position. Could you post where on each string you can the scale played.
Do you mean just the simple
(low E sting) 35
(A) 235
(D) 245
etc.
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