Mike Longo - Rhythmic Nature of Jazz

[MarkRhodes]

Longo is absolutely adamant you have to feel 6 Against 4 (quarter note triplet) completely in your bones to play jazz. And then get the half note triplet down as well.

Barry Harris is absolutely adamant you have to feel 6 Against 4 (quarter note triplet) completely in your bones to play jazz.

Jonathan Kreisberg is absolutely adamant you have to feel 6 Against 4 (quarter note triplet) completely in your bones, locked in, to play jazz.

when people like this say this, we need to pay attention .

I’m getting there . not there yet .

A nice tutorial on eighth note triplets.

[RobbF]

I'm a big fan of Mike's method, even though I find him maddeningly unclear at times. If there's anyone here who has delved deeply into the 4 DVD's, can we talk?

Example: On DVD 4, he first makes a BIG point about how a certain thing ("continuity") is NOT what everybody thinks it is (two quarter note triplets with a rest where the first attack would be), but rather, two quarter note triplets, displaced by an eighth note.

But then, on the last track, when he has the student demonstrate his final exercise, which includes the just-named displaced quarter note triplets (and notated as such), to my ear BOTH of his advanced students play the exact thing he said was wrong! This could well be an error on my part (I might be mis-hearing it), but I don't think so. For one thing, there are five attacks in both students' rendition of the bar in question, where there should be six.

That strikes me as so strange.... Can anyone clarify?

[christianm77]

Can't seem to find the video to comment.... not sure what's happened to it... it's been a few years.

[Reg]

Hey rirhett, I know I've posted to many times, but just get almost any percussion or drummers work out book... not the advanced ones... I've usually recommend Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4, it's a syncopation study for developing accuracy and speed. Follow the Preface. It's not complicated... but getting your rhythmic feel together requires understanding rhythmic figures... and being able to recognize them, on paper which results to you being able to see, then feel them in your head...

The secrets or tricks are just doing the basic beginning work, and building from the basics.

[rlrhett]

Thank you, Reg.

Once I got the accompanying CD I was able to do the exercises. They are good, and they helped. They aren’t magic, but I’m glad I have them. When I feel like my rhythm is weak I do a little of the first drumming exercise and it usually helps me find the groove again.

I know it would help a lot to just do some basic drumming. For that matter, it would help me a lot to learn a little bass. There is so much to do on the guitar that I am loathe to spend limited time on another instrument; but I know that is short sighted. Even a little drumming practice can pay big dividends to my guitar playing.


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[christianm77]

Playing the Djembe was a lot of fun.

[axeman65535]

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but can someone rip the practice CDs?

I bought all 4 DVDs, but as Mike Longo has passed, the CDs aren't being sold anymore. I'm having a hard time finding an alternative anywhere online...

I am in the same boat. I am also looking into buying the practice CD for DVD III. I am not 100% sure there is one?

[morrisonguitar]

Hi Guys, hope all is well. I just happened upon this discussion. I was a student of Mike's and I am also the guitarist in Mike's final video(#4). If I can be of any help, I will try. All the best.

[patshep]

Is is just me, or does it seem like you didn't get much out of the videos, yet keep wanting to buy more??? I don't know who this guy is, but I wouldn't keep spending money on his dvd program, maybe a lesson with a drummer could sort it out? subdividing 3 and 6 over 4 seems straighforward to me, but I can't tell, because I haven't seen the program.

[Alessandro77]

Hi everyone,

I stumbled upon Mike Longo's method through Gal Halper weeks ago. I came across Gal Halper on youtube, I think, though I can't remember why it happened. I have been looking for ways to develop my sense of rhythm in my playing, and this seems to be the way forward. I bought 2 DVDs, the orientation one and the one that follows, plus the CD of exercises.

While I am going through all this material (I bought a djembe as well, haha), I was wondering: is there a way of applying this stuff directly to your playing, or is it just something that we need to practice to get in our system, and at some point it will come naturally? I tend to think it's this second option, as Mike seems to have more of a "stream of consciousness" approach, but if any one is approaching this from another angle, I'm listening.

Cheers,
Alessandro

[RobbF]

Hi Chris,

This is Robb the keyboard player again...I also wanted to inquire into the possibility of a few lessons with you about the Longo rhythm stuff. I have a djembe and have devoted a fair amount of time to absorbing what he's talkng about. I'd greatly value being able to learn more from you about it!

thanks,
Robb Feldhaus

[RobbF]

Hi Chris,

This is Robb the keyboard player again...I also wanted to inquire into the possibility of a few lessons with you about the Longo rhythm stuff. I have a djembe and have devoted a fair amount of time to absorbing what he's talkng about. I'd greatly value being able to learn more from you about it!

thanks,
Robb Feldhaus

[christianm77]

Hi Chris,

This is Robb the keyboard player again...I also wanted to inquire into the possibility of a few lessons with you about the Longo rhythm stuff. I have a djembe and have devoted a fair amount of time to absorbing what he's talkng about. I'd greatly value being able to learn more from you about it!

thanks,
Robb Feldhaus

Hi Robb, I haven’t worked on Longo’s stuff specifically for a long time (but I’d love to revisit) and unfortunately my djembe skin perished when it was in storage - so I need a new one.

ive been studying rhythm a lot though, so if you have any questions etc hit me up! Mike’s ideas really got me started thinking seriously about the nature of polyrhythms in jazz, it’s spiritual aspects and human time... tbh I feel like I’m just scratching the surface but always happy to chat about this stuff which is so under appreciated.

[citizenk74]

Hi Chris,

This is Robb the keyboard player again...I also wanted to inquire into the possibility of a few lessons with you about the Longo rhythm stuff. I have a djembe and have devoted a fair amount of time to absorbing what he's talkng about. I'd greatly value being able to learn more from you about it!

thanks,
Robb Feldhaus

[citizenk74]

Hi Guys, hope all is well. I just happened upon this discussion. I was a student of Mike's and I am also the guitarist in Mike's final video(#4). If I can be of any help, I will try. All the best.

[citizenk74]

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but can someone rip the practice CDs?

I bought all 4 DVDs, but as Mike Longo has passed, the CDs aren't being sold anymore. I'm having a hard time finding an alternative anywhere online...

[citizenk74]

I am in the same boat. I am also looking into buying the practice CD for DVD III. I am not 100% sure there is one?

[citizenk74]

I have I-III dvds and the practice cd for dvd II. Is the practice cd for dvd III crucial or can I practice the motifs along to the first practice cd?

[RobbF]

Hi Robb, I haven’t worked on Longo’s stuff specifically for a long time (but I’d love to revisit) and unfortunately my djembe skin perished when it was in storage - so I need a new one.

ive been studying rhythm a lot though, so if you have any questions etc hit me up! Mike’s ideas really got me started thinking seriously about the nature of polyrhythms in jazz, it’s spiritual aspects and human time... tbh I feel like I’m just scratching the surface but always happy to chat about this stuff which is so under appreciated.

Hey Christian, was just listening to your Anansi Blues--dig it! I would love the opportunity to dialogue about the things you just mentioned: spiritual aspects, human time, etc.

I've lived with the Longo DVDs for maybe a year now, listening and re-listening many times. I've grown a LOT from taking this stuff in. I'm a fairly analytical person, and sometimes he is maddeningly unclear (in my book), but then again, I pick up that he was intentionally a bit enigmatic as a pedagogical style (make the student dig for it kind of thing). It's prolly good for me lol--frustrates my analytical intellect, but as Mike never tired of saying, it's an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual thing.

I have mad respect for Mike, but that doesn't stop me from feeling frustrated...

One issue I have is that, on the fourth DVD, to my ear, he says one thing and then presents something significantly different. He speaks at length about how the displaced quarter note triplet is NOT just two quarter note triplets starting on "one", with the first attack replaced with a rest. But then, the musicians seem to play that very thing, with no apparent detriment to their entering the zone.

Another example: "continuities" is clearly an important concept, but he doesn't really define it any more than saying "it's when certain hits occur in the same place." That's just not an adequate definition in my book!! Examples? Not given. Is he saying that, for example, the displaced quarter note triplet happens subliminally in every measure, once it's introduced? Maybe Chris Morrisson could chime in on this issue?

If you're interested in these issues, let me know and I'll give you some time stamps for where my questions are.

More general topics: What's your understanding of "human time"? I understood that Dizzy used the term as a contrast to "clock time" (metronomic time). Hal Galper also uses the term in a different way (though there was definitely some Longo influence on Hal). I like his book Forward Motion, though again, there's an intellectual sloppiness which frustrates me. How would you characterize the spiritual aspects of polyrhythm? I'm very receptive to that whole idea.

One thing I like about Mike's approach is that it's not so mathematical as other approaches to polyrhythm (Ari Hoenig, for example). Mike's approach is more intuitive, which is great in many ways, but there's still that conceptual un-clarity....

Anything you want to say will be listened to with great interest! For example, what stands out in your memory as one of the things in Mike's DVD's that was helpful to you personally?

best,
Robb

[christianm77]

Hey Christian, was just listening to your Anansi Blues--dig it! I would love the opportunity to dialogue about the things you just mentioned: spiritual aspects, human time, etc.

I've lived with the Longo DVDs for maybe a year now, listening and re-listening many times. I've grown a LOT from taking this stuff in. I'm a fairly analytical person, and sometimes he is maddeningly unclear (in my book), but then again, I pick up that he was intentionally a bit enigmatic as a pedagogical style (make the student dig for it kind of thing). It's prolly good for me lol--frustrates my analytical intellect, but as Mike never tired of saying, it's an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual thing.

I have mad respect for Mike, but that doesn't stop me from feeling frustrated...

One issue I have is that, on the fourth DVD, to my ear, he says one thing and then presents something significantly different. He speaks at length about how the displaced quarter note triplet is NOT just two quarter note triplets starting on "one", with the first attack replaced with a rest. But then, the musicians seem to play that very thing, with no apparent detriment to their entering the zone.

Another example: "continuities" is clearly an important concept, but he doesn't really define it any more than saying "it's when certain hits occur in the same place." That's just not an adequate definition in my book!! Examples? Not given. Is he saying that, for example, the displaced quarter note triplet happens subliminally in every measure, once it's introduced? Maybe Chris Morrisson could chime in on this issue?

If you're interested in these issues, let me know and I'll give you some time stamps for where my questions are.

More general topics: What's your understanding of "human time"? I understood that Dizzy used the term as a contrast to "clock time" (metronomic time). Hal Galper also uses the term in a different way (though there was definitely some Longo influence on Hal). I like his book Forward Motion, though again, there's an intellectual sloppiness which frustrates me. How would you characterize the spiritual aspects of polyrhythm? I'm very receptive to that whole idea.

One thing I like about Mike's approach is that it's not so mathematical as other approaches to polyrhythm (Ari Hoenig, for example). Mike's approach is more intuitive, which is great in many ways, but there's still that conceptual un-clarity....

Anything you want to say will be listened to with great interest! For example, what stands out in your memory as one of the things in Mike's DVD's that was helpful to you personally?

best,
Robb

OK well these are big questions with complex answers...I'm not sure if I have time to go into great depth today.

Really I think it has to do with learning the difference between conscious intellect and the intuitive mind in music. Rhythm has traditionally been associated with trance states in many cultures. For instance the Candomble Ketu rhythms posted elsewhere have associations with specific deities. The idea that a creative person may be seized by a 'genius' (i.e. a spirit) is deeply built into our culture's language, but has been somewhat forgotten post-Enlightenment (genius is now a person or a possession not a possessing spirit.)

It is up to any musician to reconnect with this older way of understanding creativity; pretty much everyone understands this idea even they talk about it in different ways. Some may call this spiritual.

Sorry if that seems vague. There's really nothing vague about it; you have to learn when you encounter it, how to stay in the state as much as possible and how to nurture it. The conscious thinking mind can create a window into the intuitive mind. One nice thing about rhythm is you can start mathematically and go into this state.

[RobbF]

thanks for those insights, Christian. btw I've been listening to your music and you are a great example of combining intellect with intuition IMHO.

So yeah, that idea of allowing trance and possession...awesome...the best music is in the spirit of a tribal thing among the band members and also the audience. I'm cool with describing it as a spiritual thing. Then there's the kundalini aspect (playing from your a--hole) (sorry but that's what it is), which I do understand and deeply appreciate (though I want to grow in that consciousness). It's really from the root chakra in yogic terms, but "a--hole" is a good experiential approximation...including the earthy and "naughty" implications of that!

And...there's the intellectual (mathematical) dimension, too, as you alluded to. Mike Longo was big on saying you don't create feelings with music, but rather, "do the music 'correctly' (and he always meant by that, mathematically correctly), and the feelings will be created.

So that's why it bugs me that, in his DVDs, sometimes the music is NOT played according to his instruction (his notation), and he apparently doesn't pick up on it. Or maybe I'm mishearing it, but I don't think so (?). And yet, the feelings are created (?).

Example: in DVD 4, around 16:20 (in the chapter "melodic activators"), he gives notation for a Dizzy "activator." Then around 17:20, he has Andrew play it, but Andrew plays it rhythmically "wrong," in a way that, to my mind, undermines the point--it beeps where it should have bopped LOL.

Please don't misunderstand my tone here, I'm not criticizing Mike or Andy, I just care about knowledge, and this seems to undermine MIke's point--especially because Mike seems not to notice the mistake, and yet praises the performance as an instance of (presumably) "musica majoris."

A much bigger example occurs at 25:52 ("continuities"). He first corrects someone else he saw on Youtube for misunderstanding the displaced quarter note triplet, but when the other musicians play it under Mike's guidance, they (to my fallible ear) play the same thing he corrected the music teacher for! Again with Mike's tacit approval... Obviously, this undermines the importance or the correctness of Mike's POV on this, if they play it "wrong" and still get a result Mike approves of (and he apparently doesn't notice). Again, I could be wrong, but I'd love someone else's opinion on this.

He also makes a point of saying that the quarter notes in jazz are actually dotted quarter notes, and how students tend to misunderstand the eighth note displacement as a classical eighth note, when it's really a dotted eighth note. If anybody is following my train of thought here, let me know--for now let me just say I find his presentation confusing.

I just want to play the music "correctly" so as to create the conditions for the "spirit possessing me"!! It's not AT ALL about trashing Mike or the musicians on the video, all of whom I respect and greatly admire!! It's because I DO deeply respect Mike and his legacy, that I want to understand it as well as possible, especially since he has passed on. I would love it if any of the musicians on the video could speak their minds on this...

Any discussion would be appreciated greatly.

Robb

[christianm77]

thanks for those insights, Christian. btw I've been listening to your music and you are a great example of combining intellect with intuition IMHO.

So yeah, that idea of allowing trance and possession...awesome...the best music is in the spirit of a tribal thing among the band members and also the audience. I'm cool with describing it as a spiritual thing. Then there's the kundalini aspect (playing from your a--hole) (sorry but that's what it is), which I do understand and deeply appreciate (though I want to grow in that consciousness). It's really from the root chakra in yogic terms, but "a--hole" is a good experiential approximation...including the earthy and "naughty" implications of that!

And...there's the intellectual (mathematical) dimension, too, as you alluded to. Mike Longo was big on saying you don't create feelings with music, but rather, "do the music 'correctly' (and he always meant by that, mathematically correctly), and the feelings will be created.

That was one of the main takeaways for me. I'm thinking now of Mahler's scores which are incredible exacting in terms of instructions, dynamics, articulations and so on, and yet his music is often thought highly emotional, in comparison to someone like Bach perhaps, who was very much less specific with any of this info.

I compare it to a magic spell; say the incantations, observe the rite.

So that's why it bugs me that, in his DVDs, sometimes the music is NOT played according to his instruction (his notation), and he apparently doesn't pick up on it. Or maybe I'm mishearing it, but I don't think so (?). And yet, the feelings are created (?).

Example: in DVD 4, around 16:20 (in the chapter "melodic activators"), he gives notation for a Dizzy "activator." Then around 17:20, he has Andrew play it, but Andrew plays it rhythmically "wrong," in a way that, to my mind, undermines the point--it beeps where it should have bopped LOL.

Please don't misunderstand my tone here, I'm not criticizing Mike or Andy, I just care about knowledge, and this seems to undermine MIke's point--especially because Mike seems not to notice the mistake, and yet praises the performance as an instance of (presumably) "musica majoris."

A much bigger example occurs at 25:52 ("continuities"). He first corrects someone else he saw on Youtube for misunderstanding the displaced quarter note triplet, but when the other musicians play it under Mike's guidance, they (to my fallible ear) play the same thing he corrected the music teacher for! Again with Mike's tacit approval... Obviously, this undermines the importance or the correctness of Mike's POV on this, if they play it "wrong" and still get a result Mike approves of (and he apparently doesn't notice). Again, I could be wrong, but I'd love someone else's opinion on this.

He also makes a point of saying that the quarter notes in jazz are actually dotted quarter notes, and how students tend to misunderstand the eighth note displacement as a classical eighth note, when it's really a dotted eighth note. If anybody is following my train of thought here, let me know--for now let me just say I find his presentation confusing.

I'm not familiar with any of this stuff. I didn't even know DVD 4 was available. It's been a few years since I've looked into his material.

I just want to play the music "correctly" so as to create the conditions for the "spirit possessing me"!! It's not AT ALL about trashing Mike or the musicians on the video, all of whom I respect and greatly admire!! It's because I DO deeply respect Mike and his legacy, that I want to understand it as well as possible, especially since he has passed on. I would love it if any of the musicians on the video could speak their minds on this...

Any discussion would be appreciated greatly.

Robb

[RobbF]

Hi Christian,

I've continued to listen to your stuff and I'm learning a lot and enjoying myself a lot as well! You've got a chill, understated, humble manner that is very appealing. Love how you play straightahead as well as more modern stuff.

Okay, I hear you that you didn't get to DVD 4, no problem. In case anyone else has been following this thread and wants to chime in, I'm eager to discuss this stuff!

Robb

[RobbF]

I don't think there is one for DVD 3, but I have the practice tracks for DVD 2 and I think I could rip them and send them to you if you let me know.

Rodd

[tbeltrans]

There are downloads of the CD tracks as MP3s for DVDs 2 and 3. On the same page on the site, you can also get all 4 DVDs as downloads (MP4):

Woodshed-Master Class | JazzBeat

Elsewhere on the site, you can find Mike Longo's books:

Woodshed - Home Study Courses | JazzBeat

Tony