Repeating a Lick/Scale Thousands of Times to Master It!?!

[TH]

My God, my God, my God. What insight Youtube has given me on some highly technical players. In various conversations, I have heard how some have repeated a lick or scale fragment thousands of times in order to master it.

So this girl says "You're a lousy lover."
I said "Yeah? let me hear you say that when we've gotten to a thousand."
Can't get no respect.

David

[Lobomov]

There is a caveat to be added about playing things slowly in order to eventually play them fast.

It's this. At low tempo, lots of different fingerings may work well. But, as the tempo rises, some of those fingerings aren't going to work well. Typically, the problems are in the right hand. For example, you may have to play upstrokes on three strings in a row, moving towards the ceiling. Great sweep pickers can do it at high speed and have the notes sound crisp, but not everybody. Warren Nunes taught left hand re-fingering to allow for use of pull-offs on a single string (often with stretches or position movement) to accommodate the needs of the pick at high tempi.

So, practicing a fingering slowly and then expecting it to scale up to any speed can break down in some situations. Usually, there's another way -- what Warren Nunes called "speed technique applied". Sometimes, you just can't get it -- your nervous system doesn't necessarily work like somebody else's.

The problem of string skipping. Troy Grady material has helped me immensely to play stuff I just couldn't do previously.

[Nabil B]

Getting the technical mastery of the lick is quite easy, in a few days I generally can play it without much trouble. However, internalizing it so I can hear it when I'm improvising (ie. including it naturally instead of forcing it in) is the real hard part. I've worked on some phrases for a long time, and I still don't play them when improvising if I'm not consciously thinking about them. On the other hand, some other phrases have quickly found their way into my playing, without needing a lot of repetitions (unfortunately these cases are the exception, not the norm !). What I've been wondering for a long time now is how to speed up the internalizing of a new lick/phrase/concept. The only advice I've heard is that you should play them consciously over and over, till they become part of you (fake it till you make it, in other words). But is this really all that can be said about this crucial subject ?

[rpjazzguitar]

Getting the technical mastery of the lick is quite easy, in a few days I generally can play it without much trouble. However, internalizing it so it can hear it when I'm improvising (ie. including it naturally instead of forcing it in) is the real hard part. I've worked on some phrases for a long time, and I still don't play them when improvising if I'm not consciously thinking about it. On the other hand, some other phrases have quickly found their way into my playing, without needing a lot of repetitions (unfortunately these cases are the exception, not the norm !). What I've been wondering for a long time now is how to speed up the internalizing of a new lick/phrase/concept. The only advice I've heard is that you should play them consciously over and over, till they become part of you (fake it till you make it, in other words). But is this really all that can be said about this crucial subject ?

Exactly my experience. Some sounds stick in my head, others don't.

My workaround: focus my practice on the sounds that seem to come to me more naturally. This seems to have helped with the issue of having a personal style. The negative side is that my harmonic vocabulary is more limited than I'd like it to be.

[christianm77]

I think you might want to take a look at this article:

Why the Progress You Make in the Practice Room Seems to Disappear Overnight - The Bulletproof Musician

This pops up in Troy's material as well BTW... He interviews the 'bulletproof' guy.

As a technically able player myself (or at least that's what people say) and one who has developed better technique and more diverse technique in recent years, I would say the most important thing is to be able to break things down into very specific physical movements which you can practice little and often.

For example, I am currently looking to improve my legato chops. There are two aspects that are key for me - accurate fretting on the fingertips, and the ability to make the very isolated small but quick movements required to pull off efficiently without overdoing it or moving the hand. Descending legato scales rely on this skillset and I never really developed it before.

Finally, there is such a thing as having too much technique - in comparison to one's musicality, say.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The last couple years, I've gotten more of some particular technical stuff together than a bunch of years before that probably. Kind of arrived at a lot of it accidentally, and it's left me with the feeling that I really should have done it seriously about 20 years ago with a teacher. A lot more to it than simple reps. If you're doing it wrong, the number of reps almost doesn't matter. It's almost a wash.

I think there's so much you could miss by just doing it on your own with trial and error or whatever.

[AlsoRan]

FYI, here is link to Troy Grady's studies and interview with Michael Angelo Battio.

[docbop]

If you're doing it wrong, the number of reps almost doesn't matter. It's almost a wash.

FWIW

Howard Roberts talking on the topic would say "always play it perfect, no matter how slow you have to play it". HR was would say speed develops on its own focus on how you play it. But part of the reason for playing slow of perfect per HR is the brain remembers everything but doesn't remember good or bad just data. He would say that why you still make a mistake now and then playing something like a C scale you've play millions of times. You played it made a mistake playing it somewhere in the past and the brain just remember you said that was a C scale so it threw it out there. That led to HR saying when you do make a mistake you have to dilute it with 100's of times playing it correctly. So never make a mistake, play super low if necessary, when learning and feel your about to make a mistake, stop before you do.

So when I saw Matt say "almost a wash" that reminded me of HR and his teaching methods says you have to dilute mistakes with lots of correct playing. That's why in the early "superchops" lessons at GIT the speed increments were very small.

[docbop]

Listening to a sax player Q&A something was said I found interesting. Practice slow so you learn to play relaxed. Makes sense since the whole ideas of repeatedly practicing something is to internalize the mental aspect of the lick/scale. That way future practice or gig it's then just a mechanical exercise the subconscious has the notes handled.

Someone should write a book "The Zen of Practicing to Shred". Hey title my idea so at least give me a mention in the credits

[christianm77]

I was watching an instructional video by (legato fusion whizz) Tom Quayle he basically said that he only practices slow. I would say that I have found the same thing. Practicing fast is unecessary, doing it right slow is where the real work gets done.

BUT - you have to make sure everything is RIGHT.

[srlank]

^^^^^
Regarding legato, playing 90% slow definitely works for me. Unfortunately, it does not for picking. God Bless legato. Lol

[christianm77]

^^^^^
Regarding legato, playing 90% slow definitely works for me. Unfortunately, it does not for picking. God Bless legato. Lol

Probably you have mechanical issues with your pick technique then. Practicing fast will not help that, of course.

So - as I say it needs to be RIGHT, and it's not always clear sometimes that it isn't.

[srlank]

It's difficult to really discuss this verbally on a forum and even with video, which is one reason I have veered more away from this type of format. I've had my picking hand and general technique reviewed by some pretty heavy teachers/pickers, and the consensus has always been to tell me not to change it. But yes, of course practicing slowly is fundamental for studying basic mechanics and getting it down right. It won't by itself make everyone fast.

[christianm77]

It's difficult to really discuss this verbally on a forum and even with video, which is one reason I have veered more away from this type of format. I've had my picking hand and general technique reviewed by some pretty heavy teachers/pickers, and the consensus has always been to tell me not to change it. But yes, of course practicing slowly is fundamental for studying basic mechanics and getting it down right. It won't by itself make everyone fast.

Hmmm... .Sounds like an interesting problem *strokes beard*, I would certainly be interested in having a look if you are up for it.

But you know, not being happy with your right hand and relying on legato puts you in some good company. It's not so important what technique you use, so much as that the technique you use allows you to get the notes out that you hear.

Also I personally dislike the sound of every note picked. Even though I can do it, I've moved towards introducing more legato in my playing for musical reasons... Hence the Tom Quayle vid. Quayleis super musical with his technique. Why would you bother picking with a left hand like that lol?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I was watching an instructional video by (legato fusion whizz) Tom Quayle he basically said that he only practices slow. I would say that I have found the same thing. Practicing fast is unecessary, doing it right slow is where the real work gets done.

BUT - you have to make sure everything is RIGHT.

(Practicing fast is really helpful for one aspect: assessment. Slow doesn't really show you where your problems are as much. You can play as badly as you like when it's slow.)

One thing I was kind of amazed at when I started doing more REAL, slow technical work is how quickly you can improve and fix problems - even unlearning bad technique from many years. When you're doing it right, you need far fewer reps to really get things under your fingers.

[srlank]

I know, right? Have you checked out David Beebee on Facebook? Great, notes and articulation. He uses picking and lots of legato. For me, the challenging part of legato is working on the articulation.

[christianm77]

(Practicing fast is really helpful for one aspect: assessment. Slow doesn't really show you where your problems are as much. You can play as badly as you like when it's slow.)

One thing I was kind of amazed at when I started doing more REAL, slow technical work is how quickly you can improve and fix problems - even unlearning bad technique from many years. When you're doing it right, you need far fewer reps to really get things under your fingers.

Yes I suppose so. I don't really think about speed anyway, I think about accurate subdivision at tempo and watch out for things that feel awkward, that 'catch.' This is easiest done with pre composed material.

If fast isn't completely natural there is some inefficiency in the chain you haven't spotted.

Fast should be easy. Fast is a by product not a goal.

Not all fast players have the capacity to break it down in sufficient detail. Actually very few of them do.

Btw The only good and widely understood plectrum pedagogy for speed I've come across is GJ/Rest Stroke picking, which itself has classical roots.

I mean good not as in 'this is the only way' but good in that it is the only widely available pedagogy I've seen that consistently produces very technically able players.

There are others - Chuck Wayne picking, Benson picking - but there aren't so many teachers of these and information is still quite patchy.
While you can go and find a clear online lesson on rest stroke in a matter of minutes.

Most teachers - even ones who can really pick -are very hit and miss and many jazz guitarists have said they have problems with the right hand. Hmmmm. The mechanics of fast alternate picking is quite poorly understood for instance IMO.

Also the way players play fast may radically differ mechanically from the way they play slow. The real trick is to be able to work out how to go from exaggerated but correct movements into small and highly optimised movements.

Pick pedagogy is still largely in the dark ages, but Grady is on to something IMO.

[christianm77]

Oh another thing once I think I've got something I practice it a bit slower/

Students often try to play something at tempo thinking they have it. Don't fall into that trap.

[mr. beaumont]

I was watching an instructional video by (legato fusion whizz) Tom Quayle he basically said that he only practices slow.

Maybe now...but that guy certainly practiced fast at some point.

[christianm77]

Maybe now...but that guy certainly practiced fast at some point.

I can only go on what the man himself says, and he is VERY specific about it.

I might be stretching a point here, but is it really possible to practice anything fast? Practice requires conscious intervention from the conscious mind. This is why it's practice and not simply playing. This simply has to be slow.

Anything you play fast is something you have played before (to paraphrase Adam Rogers.)

Now if you are a legato player, you might spend a lot of time working on 'chunks' such as legato rolls etc and then once these modules are completely mastered and sounding very clean, you can clip them together into longer lines at faster tempos.

But you are no longer thinking of these modules as being notes, but rather 'chunks' that you can slot together. Slotting four note groups of 16th notes together at 160 bpm requires the same processing speed as concentrating on individual notes at 40bpm, for instance, so provided your fingers have been properly programmed with the modules, it's easy. (Lets set aside some of the specific challenges of legato technique regarding fingerings for the moment.)

Regardless of our method of articulation, I would imagine most or all us approach 'fast' improvisation in a similar way. I use chunks, for sure.

For myself, practicing legato fast does absolutely nothing to improve my technique. It remains as sloppy as it was. Slowed down to 60-80 bpm (as Quayle recommends) the actual movements are fast and specific, however.

But the purpose of playing a passage of music slow is that each movement can be made in isolation.

The same is true of picking. Left hand and right hand need to be completely synchronised and changes from one finger to the next need to be made very quickly and accurately at any tempo.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd argue playing fast is practice for the times when you need to play fast.

No amount of slow practice is gonna make you kill it on Cherokee at 320bpm.

[christianm77]

I'd argue playing fast is practice for the times when you need to play fast.

No amount of slow practice is gonna make you kill it on Cherokee at 320bpm.

I'm not sure if you've read/understood my last post in reference to practicing fast and I think we may be talking about the same thing in different ways.

While the surface level may involve rapid sequences notes that have been well practiced at slower tempos so as to become completely unconscious, the actual conscious practice elements (i.e. putting together chunks, amalgamating the beat for slower across the barline phrasing etc) are actually SLOW.

But you have to have the 'surface' elements - the cells/modules/forward motion pickups/BH vocab/whatever it is that floats your boat - completely internalised to have a prayer of doing this.

'The faster you play, the slower you count' Dizzy

I put it to you anyone who can handle fast Cherokee consistently will be working in a way that is similar to what I have outlined above.

Cherokee of course is a uncharacteristically slow moving tune from the point of view of harmonic rhythm so it's particularly well suited to this type of 'chunked' approach.

Other tunes - such as Rhythm Changes - require some chunked/abstracted approaches to harmony. That's of course why Giant Steps is such a killer, although there are some clever ways to chunk it.

[mr. beaumont]

I did read/understand your last post.

I agree on the chunking thing...but it has to come up to tempo eventually, right? How and when?

The concept of working slow seems to be more technique based, not performance based. So on that, I completely agree, if your technique isn't clean slow, it'll never be clean fast.

[christianm77]

Yeah I thought we were probably on the same page on that!

As soon as I posted my last thing, a whole load of thoughts about what it means to play fast tempos and different strategies for doing so beyond sheer brute speed. (I may do a video at some point, but suffice to say it has to do with the amount of rhythmic activity you use in a line rather than simply how fast the notes go. It also relates to ballad playing.)

Anyway, when it comes down to it, speed to me is a trick. If you know how to make something work mechanically in the right way it can be speeded up arbitrarily (then the problem becomes more keeping it in time. Economy/directional picking is a classic example.)

My technique (as a rest stroke picker) is an asymmetrical one. As a result there are certain things that have no upward bound on speed and other things that do.

(In contrast, an alternate picker aims to make everything the same.)

In practice, it's something I can work around. Troy Grady is VERY good at identifying these mechanical bottlenecks. While I have basically zero interest in applying most of his stuff (two way pick-slanting for instance) I appreciate the detail and the way it has helped me understand my technique better.

Slow practice WILL NOT help with speed unless you have taken account of and eliminated the various bottlenecks from the movements you are making (and it can be quite complex to do so) - but, if you have it is the only way to practice. This practice may also feel awkward and unnatural at first, too.

But for me, speed is kind of cheap. There's nothing wrong with it, but I give it relatively little respect. A player should be musically advanced above all (and I'm not talking about advanced in maths way - I mean great taste, tone, time, touch etc). Beyond that can be fast or slow, doesn't matter to me.

Everything else is negotiable... So that's what I try to focus on in my own practice. If I work on technique it's to try and get things to sound better and be easier to do, not to play faster.

[Lobomov]

Since we are already quoting other players. There is the recent Michael Angelo Batio interview. He states first states that in order to be fast you have to learn slow .. but adds apart from doing the slow thing, he combines it with practicing at speeds way where it gets ridicously bad and sloppy just in order to get the feel of how speed feels.

Quote at 49:45 (while the start of the speed discussion is 42:30)

Slow practice WILL NOT help with speed unless you have taken account of and eliminated the various bottlenecks from the movements you are making (and it can be quite complex to do so) - but, if you have it is the only way to practice.

That is one of the things where Troy has made a huge contribution. The slow advice has been has been a universal advice for so long, but no one has really focused on those bottle necks. The fact that you can play most things at slow tempo, but due to the problems of string skipping you might be playing in a way that will never allow you to play fast. Especially the two way pickslanting was an eye opener.