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who cares really? I dont... 300 bpm 400 bpm 1000 bpm... what is it? beats per mile? who are we? marafon players...? I played classical guitar for 20 years and never heard anyone say about 'at which bpm you play Cathedral.... as soon as I got to rock players - bpms are everywhere...OK wise guy.
I can't execute DL at 300bpm AT ALL. Maybe with a bit of practice I could. I doubt I would do better than the guy in the video. Could you?
You yourself have called me a fast, agile player IIRC. So.
I'm not sure any of the pro jazz guitarists I know in London could, but I would like to be proven wrong. It's just not high on the list of priorities, probably for good reasons. The guy in the vid is probably a shred guy. Still tho.
Find me a guitarist who can execute Donna Lee better at 300bpm.
(Pasquale Grasso can probably do it. :-))
Expectations can be reasonable. It is reasonable to expect someone to be able to execute DL at 240bpm as a professional jazz guitarist. 300bpm is upper percentile ability.
I would rather, like you, hear somebody play it at 240 and phrase it well, but fuck it, you know? If you were hanging with a sax player and they call it at stupid tempo, getting through it is an achievement.
Believe me I do not feel embarassed to get off the stand if I can't play Donna Lee at the speed they started to play... Maybe 200-300 years agou I would have been.. but now when I am almost 1000 I am all with it...
And check teh guy he just does not play iy out... I don mean every note... I mean he slops it here and there... he does not have time to play accents, to control phrasing, he is like a singerwho cannot take breath in time and run out of it in the middle of the phrase...
(I do not mean the kid is bad in general.. of course not.. or rather I do not know)
And I do not care that it may theoretically work in some weird marafon gig... work for what?
I do not understand turning music into sports wherever and however it goes...
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03-14-2017 12:51 AM
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Most missed the point. It wasn't ooh look how great this guy is, it was this tempo is 300 bpm...
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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if it was: 'ooh look how fast this tempo is...'. then you might just post metronome beeps at 300 bpm...Most missed the point. It wasn't ooh look how great this guy is, it was this tempo is 300 bpm...
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Some possible starters:
1) Always, always use a metronome. Why? If you don't your fingers will pay faster where it finds the least resistance, so you will play with uneven time.
2) Familiarity plays fastest. Chops you've been playing for yonks will slide off the fret board.
3) Go for the Jane Fonda burn. Strength enables speed so workout those little men.
It’s importance for you;
Important in jazz to be able to play uptempo, or perhaps give the impression of playing uptempo. Fast is for boys, uptempo for men. Threshold is determined by the number of particular twitch cells. Some of us have more than others.
Ways that improve – that you know by experience that worked!
1) Isometric training increases twitch response.
2) Rapid, short burst crunches. Buy finger gym equipment and train the same way athletes do.
3) Incremental tempo build up with metronome.
4) Everyday, one hour, speed passages.
5) Find the path of least resistance—don't play complex bebop lines. Sax is much easier so take advantage of guitars geography.
Related to age – because there are players at advanced ages that can play fast, but may have been doing it since early ages…
Yes, but you slow down with age, partly due to joint problems, tendon deterioration (probably), inclination (less to prove). When the cut open Paganini's hands to discover his secret, they discovered worn out joints from relentless practice.
Speed related to knowledge – because if you don’t know what to play it doesn’t really matter that your fingers may be able to acomplish the task.
Very important point. You've nailed it so no comment. Familiarity, muscle memory etc.
Mental processes involved;
Discipline, regular, incremental progress, goal setting. Some say, just play, play, play, but gigs are pretty hard to come by ...at least I find it so.
Importance of warmups;
Muscles and tendons need to warm up. You'll get tired quickly if you don't. Stretching is useful too. Warm up with serious material, not just scales IMHO.
Accuracy and cleaness;
At all times. Fundamental starting point should be for 100% accuracy and tone, but don't beat yourself up for not achieving it ...it's jazz afterall. Artistic license allows for some flaws.
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It would be better to miss out some notes and play the right accents from a jazz point of view than playing every note in a way that does not swing, especially if you are not the only one playing the head!
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This is an important point. To make speed sound impressive you almost need to practice anti speed! Even-ness of rhythm if not necessarily accentuation. Originally Posted by vsaumarez
One thing that has helped me with feeling time recently has been counting the beat aloud while playing. This can be done with or without a click:
I disagree with the wording here.2) Familiarity plays fastest. Chops you've been playing for yonks will slide off the fret board.
Indeed - unless you don't have an efficient way of playing them of course.
3) Go for the Jane Fonda burn. Strength enables speed so workout those little men.
Recently having worked a bit on legato. I've been using the Tom Quayle video and that helps - precise fingering and small, accurate, fast & specific movements are how he teaches and I can see the benefit.
I was overdoing it before over fretting and pulling off by loving my whole hand quite sharply - incorporating legato into my playing is quite new for me - and it was hurting after playing. I think you stand more of a chance injuring your small precise muscles than building them. They aren't quads or biceps or whatever.
When I follow Quayle's advice I find I am able to play smooth even pull offs even on acoustic with little or no effort.
I am a fan of yogic principle 'do no violence' when applied to technique. Make this as low impact and as easy as possible.
Ability to play uptempo is about rhythmic accuracy and awareness. Ability to play fast is physical.It’s importance for you;
Important in jazz to be able to play uptempo, or perhaps give the impression of playing uptempo. Fast is for boys, uptempo for men. Threshold is determined by the number of particular twitch cells. Some of us have more than others.
Giving the impression is more interesting to listen to I think and I reckon it's easier to play fast in a way.
See above.Ways that improve – that you know by experience that worked!
1) Isometric training increases twitch response.
2) Rapid, short burst crunches. Buy finger gym equipment and train the same way athletes do.
3) Incremental tempo build up with metronome.
4) Everyday, one hour, speed passages.
5) Find the path of least resistance—don't play complex bebop lines. Sax is much easier so take advantage of guitars geography.
Related to age – because there are players at advanced ages that can play fast, but may have been doing it since early ages…
Yes, but you slow down with age, partly due to joint problems, tendon deterioration (probably), inclination (less to prove). When the cut open Paganini's hands to discover his secret, they discovered worn out joints from relentless practice.
Speed related to knowledge – because if you don’t know what to play it doesn’t really matter that your fingers may be able to acomplish the task.
Very important point. You've nailed it so no comment. Familiarity, muscle memory etc.
Mental processes involved;
Discipline, regular, incremental progress, goal setting. Some say, just play, play, play, but gigs are pretty hard to come by ...at least I find it so.
Importance of warmups;
Muscles and tendons need to warm up. You'll get tired quickly if you don't. Stretching is useful too. Warm up with serious material, not just scales IMHO.
Maybe Paganini's technique was not the healthiest? Science and knowledge of technique has moved on since then.
Accuracy of left hand fretting is a big deal I am belatedly realising. The right hand is nothing without it in fact.Accuracy and cleaness;
At all times. Fundamental starting point should be for 100% accuracy and tone, but don't beat yourself up for not achieving it ...it's jazz afterall. Artistic license allows for some flaws.
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I would like to be able to play a good deal faster than I'm able. I can hear things in my head that I can't play.
Speaking only from my own experience, I would add the following:
I don't think many people can create melody on the fly at extreme tempos. So, to play a lot of notes, you probably have to be playing lines that you have practiced. Since I don't like to solo that way, my speed is limited. I just haven't practiced enough lines. Also, I can't think fast enough. I'm tempted to think of this as a technique limitation, but I can get just about any written-out passage up to speed. That said, there are players I can't keep up with and it always feels like no amount of practice will help.
I have made progress with time, but not by using a metronome. In fact, if there's one thing I'd point to that helped, it was playing with players who have really good time. I play at a semi-pro level. I have a good friend, a bassist, with whom I play regularly, with various drummers - but with kind of wobbly time. I felt like I couldn't play anything right. BUT, when I started playing with pro level bass/drums, suddenly it felt like I couldn't play anything wrong. My confidence improved to the point where I wasn't waiting to hear somebody else play the beat (and then I'd be late). Made a huge difference -- and around that time, the phone started ringing for more gigs.
Although I doubt that audience members just about anywhere really want to hear Donna Lee at a semi-pro skill level, it still gets called at jams so you want to be able to hold your own. I can't do it with a steady stream of eighth notes. I read, on here I think, the idea to, instead, play some kind of rhythmic figure that's easier, and then cycle it through the changes. Still not the way I prefer to deal with soloing, but less embarrassing than screwing up eighth notes.
The only other thing I'd add to the speed discussion concerns the dimensions of the neck. After years of fighting thicker necks, I've settled on an extremely thin one. It helps.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-10-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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Btw when I play live everything seems to slow down. Then I listen back and I am surprised at the speed of some of my playing.
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Interesting .. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think another two important aspects related to this call it (' expanded time perception' ).
And I doubt if I have this ability/ perception as much as you describe but I understand it.
Like a 'slow downer ' microscope focus that does not slow the Tempo and works in Real Time at Gigs under 'Pressure' of Performing..
Great for Boxing too no doubt .Ha.
Not really directly related to speed but important and rarely discussed:
Most Jazz Musicians already have these but take them for granted:
1)The ability and increased perception in Real Time to vary Rhythmic Figures while Soloing or Comping..
Half time / Double Time / over the bar lines stuff/
Triplets / Septuplets etc. / Rhythmic Groupings
These aren't 'speed ' but all from increased time perception ..
I actually listen to sax players for this and can keep up with them often but not on Complex Changes- that would be Historic if I could lol.
My Music does not use mainly ii- V-Is I am experimenting with tertiary Cadences and other Types as well.
Also people like myself who can barely read would benefit from Graphically seeing some Rhythms in conventional Notation to fully understand and be able to vary them / fuse them etc.
Especially for Chord Rhythms I can't quite ' feel' OR ones I do feel and Create Variations..force better Piano Style Rhythms in my semi fingerstyle chords-
Fuse Bossa with Hip Hop Feel etc. for Composition.
Micro Time Awareness- good skill - good perception to have and develop ( if possible to develop ).
I have this on Timing but not the slow downer thing Christian mentions ( nor his knowledge ).
A) Not saying that would improve my 'Timing ' playing tight rhythms is different -I do that now - BUT learning new Rhythms especially sophisticated Harmonic Rhythms .
2) Reducing Lag Time - a lot of Jazzers who don't play fast (or care to ) have really low 'lag time'..
They can just think a Tone or Note ( not by name just hearing the pitch mentally ) and Nail it...within the Phrase..maybe jump to a different register , throw some Blue Notes in..whatever and just nail them or throw chords or chord fragments into their solos without planning ahead...
Just BAM ..hear it ( mentally ) and nail it in Rhythm-
change Rhythm in Response to the Drummer or Bassist doing something cool requires LOW LAG TIME.
Never or rarely mentioned ability - it's always speed speed speed -
*AND I don't think that playing faster directly improves a Player's Ability to turn on a dime during Solos throwing in stuff in Real Time right from your mind etc.
I do think that the pick skills for speed can reduce lag time but it's not a given.
The mental time Micro Awareness you mention above and pick or hand skill and knowing the fretboard instinctively come into Play but we rarely mention Lag Time and gear shifting/ intervals / rhythms are not the same Ability as just playing fast from beginning to end of a Solo or even a Phrase.
I know this from ( finally )having speed ,timing , articulation but lacking in some other Vital Skills that a good Jazzer already has.
Speed as a Crutch - when I Play really fast - it enables me to throw in a lot of ' filler' junk notes that would not fit the Changes at slower tempos..
Me Playing a Ballad and trying to improvise Melodies OR playing 'Pretty ' lyrically exposes weaknesses..shortcomings etc.
Now I usually do it with good time and rhythmic contour and even SOME melodic contour so it has it's Place - but still far far away from Melodies and can really be a crutch for not following the changes OR not having other actual IDEAS lol.
Going through a Tune 20 to 100 Times solves a lot of these Problems but I am not improvising as much at that point ...
And overuse of speed creates ear/ brain fatigue for the listener.
On Playback - you can hear yourself sometimes and think- this Guy needs to relax and let phrases breathe more- and the Guy is you..
OK - here's the next point - suppose after tons of woodshedding ...you could finally play say close to or at Al DiMeola speed but swing - what would you DO with it ?
More work, rhythms , wider intervals , sheets of sound Arps. Calm Arps slower
THEN only using it about 5% to 30% of the time !
After the initial thrill wears off and sense of accomplishment - what would you DO with the flashy speed ?
So Lydiana - the Greek Goddess of Guitar Speed finally Grants the Gift-
'And where is all the ' Great Music ' you were going to Play or Create with your Gift ?' She later says with the Echo Greek Gods always have .....
Chops don't often improve writing skills more exciting and enables
I think "Low Lag Time " is a rarely mentioned skill-
The ability to " hear " ( mentally ) and NOT name it or even know it's a fifth or ninth etc and just NAIL it while Playing in the Moment.
OR more just hear a group of Notes or a Phrase and just nail it on the Guitar just like you ' hear' it- nearly instantly while Playing.
Reducing Lag Time- because how often does your Mind ever feed you' wrong notes ' that don't fit ?
It's actually harder to ' hear' mentally Outside Notes.
Your Mind always feeds notes that work if you are listening to it ( not thinking of course ).
So speed speed speed ..nobody mentions Lag Time a very important but rarely mentioned Skill or Statistic.
Ask a Guitarist how's your ' Lag Time ' when Improvising ...he won't know what you are talking about ...haha one of the highest order skills an Improvising Musician ( especially Jazz ! ) could have.
I speak here to be clear as an advanced Guitarist but NOT an advanced Jazz Musician - I am learing about Jazz to improve my ability to Compose some kind of Post Steely Dan R&B Fusion and this has been helpful.
Disclaimer: I've long been a good Rhythm Guitarist and Fingerpicker..and have done some Pro Paid Recording/ but not a compelling Soloist on a Pro Level -but this is changing.
So I am not speaking as a Veteran Jazzer like many here .
But honestly - when I say a 'compelling' Soloist - I mean where other Guitarists will want to actually buy the CD and break some new Ground..and a few other things.
When I listen to great Jazz Guitarists - especially the younger Generation Jazzers or the I don't think ' how did he play that ? '
I think how did he THINK of that...or throw that in so perfectly in the Phrase or fit so smoothly in the Chord etc etc .Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-13-2017 at 03:37 AM.
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Low Lag Time in response to musical input - I think that's what Charles Banacos was teaching with his ear training stuff. He described it as a Zen thing, and I agree that the only way to develop zero lag time is to eliminate the conscious mind from music. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Technical lag time - I can rhythmically hear more precisely sometimes than I can execute. It's nothing to do with playing fast scales etc, you are right.
+1The mental time Micro Awareness you mention above and pick or hand skill and knowing the fretboard instinctively come into Play but we rarely mention Lag Time and gear shifting/ intervals / rhythms are not the same Ability as just playing fast from beginning to end of a Solo or even a Phrase.
I know this from ( finally )having speed ,timing , articulation but lacking in some other Vital Skills that a good Jazzer already has.
Speed as a Crutch - when I Play really fast - it enables me to throw in a lot of ' filler' junk notes that would not fit the Changes at slower tempos..
One key point about Ballad playing is the way to play runs/fast stuff in such away to not disrupt a ballad feel. I'm thinking here of pianists who do this a lot - arpeggio and scale runs that feel right in this context. I think this has a lot to do with not putting too much rhythmic activity (upbeat accents, convoluted melodic contour etc) into the run so that it is heard as an embellishment rather than a line in its own right and playing 16th notes doesn't pull the feel into double time.Me Playing a Ballad and trying to improvise Melodies OR playing 'Pretty ' lyrically exposes weaknesses..shortcomings etc.
The converse applies for playing fast tempos, especially when you feel them in half time, so that you don't end up with rhythmically inert phrases that 'float' over the tempo without really expressing it.
At fast tempos this rhythmic activity I would equate with swing. One exercise I find helpful is playing or clapping 'ands' at 200+ bpm. You can think of them as 16th syncopations at half tempo - so half time funk/latin rhythms if you like. Whether they are straight or swung is not IMO under conscious control at this speed.
True. But sometimes it can be very exciting to hear and see someone shredding in a gig, when you might not enjoy what they are playing so much on playback. IMO it's wise to separate out what makes a good gig from a good recording. I try to bear that in mind when critiquing my own live recordings. Recording thins out the 'life energy' of music.Now I usually do it with good time and rhythmic contour and even SOME melodic contour so it has it's Place - but still far far away from Melodies and can really be a crutch for not following the changes OR not having other actual IDEAS lol.
Going through a Tune 20 to 100 Times solves a lot of these Problems but I am not improvising as much at that point ...
And overuse of speed creates ear/ brain fatigue for the listener.
On Playback - you can hear yourself sometimes and think- this Guy needs to relax and let phrases breathe more- and the Guy is you..
Yeah, I don't see any of this as stuff exclusive to 'jazz', but 'jazz' does encourage this type of musicianship. Many pro musicians studied jazz at college and find those skills of great use in other areas even if they don't actually play jazz.OK - here's the next point - suppose after tons of woodshedding ...you could finally play say close to or at Al DiMeola speed but swing - what would you DO with it ?
More work, rhythms , wider intervals , sheets of sound Arps. Calm Arps slower
THEN only using it about 5% to 30% of the time !
After the initial thrill wears off and sense of accomplishment - what would you DO with the flashy speed ?
So Lydiana - the Greek Goddess of Guitar Speed finally Grants the Gift-
'And where is all the ' Great Music ' you were going to Play or Create with your Gift ?' She later says with the Echo Greek Gods always have .....
Chops don't often improve writing skills more exciting and enables
I think "Low Lag Time " is a rarely mentioned skill-
The ability to " hear " ( mentally ) and NOT name it or even know it's a fifth or ninth etc and just NAIL it while Playing in the Moment.
OR more just hear a group of Notes or a Phrase and just nail it on the Guitar just like you ' hear' it- nearly instantly while Playing.
Reducing Lag Time- because how often does your Mind ever feed you' wrong notes ' that don't fit ?
It's actually harder to ' hear' mentally Outside Notes.
Your Mind always feeds notes that work if you are listening to it ( not thinking of course ).
So speed speed speed ..nobody mentions Lag Time a very important but rarely mentioned Skill or Statistic.
Ask a Guitarist how's your ' Lag Time ' when Improvising ...he won't know what you are talking about ...haha one of the highest order skills an Improvising Musician ( especially Jazz ! ) could have.
I speak here to be clear as an advanced Guitarist but NOT an advanced Jazz Musician - I am learing about Jazz to improve my ability to Compose some kind of Post Steely Dan R&B Fusion and this has been helpful.
There is only the path. There is no destination to any of this.Disclaimer: I've long been a good Rhythm Guitarist and Fingerpicker..and have done some Pro Paid Recording/ but not a compelling Soloist on a Pro Level -but this is changing.
So I am not speaking as a Veteran Jazzer like many here .
I find myself asking the same question.But honestly - when I say a 'compelling' Soloist - I mean where other Guitarists will want to actually buy the CD and break some new Ground..and a few other things.
I may misunderstand your post, but it sounds like you imagine a lot of stuff is going through someone's head when they improvise. When I improvise, the less thinking I do the better. I may step in consciously with a first and second phrase and then leave it to take its course from there. My playing on tunes I don't know is always inferior, probably for this reason, but in this case I tend to think in 'chunks' - lines through standard chord progressions etc - which can get me through a chart. I have to 'manage' my playing a lot more. On a blues, say, I can just get out of my own way.When I listen to great Jazz Guitarists - especially the younger Generation Jazzers or the I don't think ' how did he play that ? '
I think how did he THINK of that...or throw that in so perfectly in the Phrase or fit so smoothly in the Chord etc etc .
I can't really comment on others, but it does appear that most thinking is done in practice. Re: pre hearing? Kenny Werner and Julian Lage (IIRC) say it's not possible to pre-hear what you are going to play in improvisation, and while everyone (AFAIK) agrees it's important to work on your ears and learn to hear your lines in practice, the live situation is not as simple as 'hear line, play line' - it's more like the chicken and egg!
Anyway, I find that a huge relief as it means I am not 'doing it wrong.' When I play there is a symbiotic relationship between what I play and what I hear. This is not an excuse to not working on my ears, though!Last edited by christianm77; 06-13-2017 at 05:59 AM.
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My approach is always to imagine the qualities of an ideal jazz speed...
- natural and effortless in its execution and in its sound and tone
- rhythm fully competent and characteristic of the style of music
- preserves articulation, swing, nuance, and phrasing qualities
- motivated by having something to say, not something to prove
...then in performance,
I suppress the speed aspects and strive to focus on just its qualities.
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Too much typing. I tend to not read long posts. My loss I know. I just wish guys would edit themselves or even do several posts instead of all in one. Just a suggestion.
That says I've been working on speed stuff a lot and having great success. Out!
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Thanks! Lol.
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Jazz speed is different from shred speed. Obviously jazz is a bit slower - a bebop head even at a fast tempo is slower than a shred lick, but in general requires a more holistic technical approach.
The first requires a developed rhythmic sense in combination with a clean and flexible technique that may top out beyond a certain point - the second mechanical optimisation that can be made to work at any speed.
Some players possess both. George Benson for instance. Or Django.Last edited by christianm77; 06-14-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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I find bop speed harder than shred. I used to always play at just about McLaughlin speed. I mean never really on his level but in the ballpark. Straight eighths. It's taken my years and years to deal with bop speed. Now regarding shred I never did tapping and sweeping and not a lot of legato. But the rhythm and bop swing phrasing made it very hard to play bop fast and make it sound real for me. Even making it sound fake. Maybe it was just me.
As a matter of fact I've recent discovered a problem. I can play jazz bop easier at 310 BPM than I can at 280. Something about the way I pick, I can pick at 310 and relax. But 280 I can't do it easily without some legato. I only recently identified this so I'm addressing it. To be fixed!
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Honestly I don't think fast Tempi sound as good as double time or Tuplets etc.
I had goals from long ago to do a type of expanded Rhythmic Music descendant from Steely Dan ( but not so laid back),and Stevie Wonder and I thought I would need to at least equal or exceed the 70's Fusion Guys in chops...but add expanded Rhythm Guitar...
So I was writing and playing on Producing and selling Jingles then , young
Not like I couldn't Play. But I couldn't play like Carlton or DiMeola etc back then..I am not playing Flamenco scales like DiMeola or Coryell but that was long ago.
So I woodshedded a long time and I have extreme speed , vertical speed and added swing ( which I did after checking out this Forum ) and did catch up.
So now it's back writing except I will be the Soloist not the only one..so there was a goal.
I certainly don't care about fast tempos...ripping it up almost like top horn guys do over modulating R&B Cadences rarely ii - V-Is and doing some actual Songwriting of course.
I will be near the top of the food chain in chops and don't have to worry about being cut by the NYC Jazz Guys on my own Styles especially - the Solos are not that different but the Rhythm Section is wayyy different and I will use Midi
Production with live percussion like Modern.R&B is done but more live instruments than they use..
So I have a much larger chord vocabulary but honestly having more chops doesn't really affect writing skills much...different skillset.
Any of you notice that ?
The writing bone is not connected to the Chops bone...haha.
And I like the Harmonic Skills and chord voicings some of them but find Jazz Guitarists not always real strong on Harmonic Rhythm..again coming from R&B ..
And I asked in the Thread earlier what would you do if you got the speed ?
As much as you wanted ...then what ?
Surely not merely to Play Tunes at high Tempos ?Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-15-2017 at 10:06 PM.
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Play? I don't even know what the question means. It's all about playing music. I play with a lot of great guys. Someone calls a burning ding once or twice a night I don't want to fold. As one of the main soloists and one of the cats, so to speak, it would be very embarrassing to not be able to play. People might talk about it. LOL! And basically my speed thing has been mostly evident on medium tunes where I rip for a bar or two. Really rip. But being able to sustain that over the length of a whole tune, burn and swing at the same time? Yup. That's the deal.
I play with those NYC jazz types.
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Ah ! So they do call out the Tunes at high Tempos.
I ' ve heard some of your Recordings -Henry and I always remember how you said - it has to be
'Seamless' and I was like wow he really is..
I also noticed extremely melodic ,effortless ,.really Pro stuff and love the Modern Tones from AxFX.
So in the cut-throat Jazz Clubs they will call a Tune at a ridiculous Tempo to mess with you and you have to be up to it...
Got it .
I liked your Studio Tones and Playing no pick noise super polished ..I was surprised -total World Class and top other Musicians - crisp well Mastered .
You must get that a lot. Ha.
Remember long ago I was joking with you about having a cool name - on some other Forum.
If you get your chops up from where you are - at a high level already ...will it help you in the Studio ?
Will you play harder on your own Recordings?Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-15-2017 at 10:30 PM.
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Well I don't think they call tunes to mess you up. I never said that. Guys just like to burn. I called Rollins tune, Airegin, a few gigs ago and the tenor player counted it off at break neck tempo. Either he didn't know what he was doing or I was just stuck in the Rollins-Miles Prestige version. Guys just like to play bop fast. Once or twice a night, you gotta have a burner.
And thank you VERY MUCH for the wonderful compliment!
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Definitely helps me in the studio. Helps me all the way around. For me it's kind of the last frontier. Not really. There's still so much for me to learn and improve, but yeah. Chops is still my quest. To have them in my tool chest and not use them until it's appropriate.
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No...I worded that poorly- I meant mess with you in a good natured way to get more out of you..
The Tunes I do have a strong Harmonic Rhythm so if you want to blow on them you need to double Time it
It would be like trying to do 'Higher Ground' by Stevie W. at a super high tempo ...the Keyboard i -bIII-IV figure ( and I play broken Chord Rhythms like that with expanded voicings ) would sound terribly rushed = no Groove at super high Tempo..
I understand that some Jazz Heads are much more Open ..or sparse Rhythmically but thats'why Standards don't grab me..usually.
I mean Take 5 is a cool groove- you can't speed that up beyond a certain Tempo..right ?
Gotta double time it ..tuplets etc.
In your head you can hear how good swinging aggressively over Tunes like that sounds ..and there's a huge gap between Stevie ish or Earth Wind and Fire ish stuff and Jazz...meaning I go further harmonically toward Jazz....and solo like Jazz..( but easier without a New Key every two Bars ( lol ) like the stuff you play on...but I do Modulate..Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-16-2017 at 10:42 AM.
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I see you added a bunch of stuff since I last looked. I'm going to respond really quickly, but I'm driving so I'm using Siri to dictate. And I'm not going to edit it because I'm driving, until much later. So this could be pretty funny. I think you're confusing a couple of things Stevie wonder and Earthwind and fire or not Jazz you can put jazz solos on them, and they are jazz influenced artists. But they're not really Jazz. Even Sonny Rollins blew jazz solos with the Stones. Tattoo You.
Now I believe each song, every song, lives at certain tempos. And there are just tunes that are just fast. Cherokee. Giant Steps. A whole bunch of tunes. And they're designed to play fast. It's not like you just take any old song and speed it up. It won't sound right because the song isn't designed at a fast tempo. Take for example body and soul. I can't really play that fast successfully. Or Stella by starlight. Or but beautiful.
OK enough for this experiment. I hope Siri did a good job. I hope it's not too funny, or maybe I hope there's some really silly mistakes. Later.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by henryrobinett; 06-16-2017 at 01:00 PM.
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Exactly.
Incidentally- you were quite lyrical and Melodic on your Version of Giant Steps on one of your CDs- most Guitarists
just try to get through it or chops it..you were actually lyrical melodic.
I notice that I am MUCH more comfortable going from normal time to double time where I can speed up at will..
When the main Tempo itself is very high- it feels like I am being chased down the street by a Pitbull lol.
That pressure is there CONSTANTLY .
So just because I have chops and Time does NOT mean I am a Master Jazzer, obviously.
But on reasonably Harmonic Rhythm stuff that doesnt modulate Triptophenically - or especially my stuff..obviously I will be extremely capable comfortable....strong Rhythm is my friend.
Where I noticed that Pitbull thing was just fooling around with Irealb App on my Android lol.
There's some Hi Tempo Tunes in there.
Song for My Father...Groove Tunes etc. just don't sound good sped up.
Curious Henry- say your Keyboardist writes a great Tune - you never heard it before...
How many times are you going to Play over it in your Studio before Stage or Studio ready ?
10 ,20...Obviously it depends. but just curious..
How long till it's 'Seamless' - at your Level ?
Siri Mistakes- Some Jazz Songs live at certain TEMPLES - deep spiritual implications...!
Yeah was that Sonny Rollins at the end of Can't You Hear Me Knockin' by the Stones...
I remember being shocked by how good their Rhythm Section was on that Tune ..
A few of my Tunes which are Blues sound more like Straight Jazz..
But My Temple is the Groove so there will be more Kick Drum ..different bass lines and more Harmonic Rhythm in the Piano Voiced Guitar...
Heavy Grooves on Guitar is my Fortè..with the voicings...I don't just hit the chord and expect the Drummer to do the work like you Jazz Guys lol.
I just could never really Solo like I was hearing..till very recently..Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-17-2017 at 01:36 AM.
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So it depends. If my keyboard player writes a song I hope I'm ready after a read through. Sometimes the best Solo is the first time. I'm pretty good at hit the changes off the bat. What's get are the polychords or "slash" chords. I have to think about those, unless it's something I know well like Bb/C or even Eb/C. If the tunes is nothing but those I gotta think too much. But if they're a bunch of Major, minor or alt Dominants switch in and out if key or all different keys, I got that on sight and ear.
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