Sweeping without the Pick

**felixhowes** · 08-13-2009, 06:51 AM

Hi,
I play with and without a pick, but for bebop and more ballady jazz i prefer to use my thumb and forefinger in a kind of alternate picking style. I have run into a wall slightly though when it comes to sweeping while playing with my fingers. I wondered if anyone knows how this is done as i know some great jazz players play with just their fingers and get away with it?
thankyou

**Stackabones** · 08-13-2009, 11:57 AM

Thumb for downstroke sweeping, but for the upstroke you're on your own. I haven't a clue what to do. Not sure of too many fingerstyle jazz players doing sweep picking.

Perhaps check out some Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Buster B. Jones, Tommy Emmanuel? They do some mindboogling stuff while fingerpicking -- though all use a thumbpick.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-13-2009, 12:05 PM

You could check out some videos of Wes on youtube. But then, there's only one Wes...

**larry graves** · 08-13-2009, 01:44 PM

I started playing down strokes --is that the same as sweep-picking? after
watching Russell Malone. Wes did it so did Barney, and I think maybe
Charley did. What I have noticed is that some of the thumb players,like
your self--and me, use the first finger as well. What I do is pinch the
strings ad- lib, which gives a jazzy Chet sound [without the country]
I've seen Barney do it. Practice makes perfect..LG.

**derek** · 08-13-2009, 01:52 PM

I can think of the Flamenco technique rasqueado, but that is a downstroke only (I think). I don't know why one couldn't rake or sweep upward with the thumb or forefinger. Just would take some getting it down.

**Stackabones** · 08-13-2009, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by derek

I can think of the Flamenco technique rasqueado, but that is a downstroke only (I think). I don't know why one couldn't rake or sweep upward with the thumb or forefinger. Just would take some getting it down.

Rasgueado is a strumming technique, not a picking one, so it may not be the best bet for sweep picking. The word itself means "strummed." It employs downstrokes and upstrokes -- and then some!

**gravyTrain** · 08-13-2009, 09:49 PM

Just my opinion, but if you are using your fingers, it is generally much more efficient to use your thumb and fingers for each string than 'sweeping'. Imagine each finger is already on the string, so the movement ideally would be minimal vs with the 'sweep-picking' method where you brush down across the strings, then brush up.

**felixhowes** · 08-14-2009, 05:18 AM

this is brilliant guys. This was my first post and the responses are great. I have actually got the downward sweeping with my thumb fine. Upward is a lot harder i find, becuase you have to change the angle of your hand slightly. And i've been trying to work out a way to do thumb and forefinger economy picking just to make it faster. If anyone knows a good resource or book on it please let me know. This is an area sadly not covered anywhere i could find. how could a plastic pick ever have replaced our trusty fingers.
thanks again

**gravitas** · 08-14-2009, 10:28 AM

Use your thumb exactly like a pick. That's how Wes swept.

Originally Posted by felixhowes

this is brilliant guys. This was my first post and the responses are great. I have actually got the downward sweeping with my thumb fine. Upward is a lot harder i find, becuase you have to change the angle of your hand slightly. And i've been trying to work out a way to do thumb and forefinger economy picking just to make it faster. If anyone knows a good resource or book on it please let me know. This is an area sadly not covered anywhere i could find. how could a plastic pick ever have replaced our trusty fingers.
thanks again

Best way to practice the downstrokes is tremolo. You can try passing through the G Major scale. Use a downward angled thumb (ie, thumprint toward the guitar) for ascending the scale, and an upward angled one (ie, cuticle towar the guitar) for the descending. Don't worry about measuring the tremolo, just change notes with predictable rhythm. Pick as quickly as you can comfortably while maintaining a smooth, uninterrupted series of notes. This above else will build your wrist technique and get you used to the thumb attack.

**bkdavidson** · 08-14-2009, 10:55 AM

This could ultimately be more trouble than it's worth, but there are sweeps at the end of the cadenza of Rodrigo's 'Concierto de Aranjuez.' The way they're done in that, at least in the edition I had, is you use your 'a' (ring) finger for upstrokes until you get to the low E, then you switch to 'p' (thumb) and that sweeps the low E through D strings, then 'i' and 'm' pluck the G and B strings. Listen to Pepe Romero's performance of the piece to hear how effective it can be. The sweeps in that piece cover all 6 strings, so I guess some adjustment would need to be made for less strings. Hope that helps a little and I didn't just ramble and waste time and space.

As far as economy picking with your thumb and forefinger, Frank Gambale has a great video on economy and sweep picking. I guess you could just substitute "thumb" for downstroke and "forefinger" for upstroke. To over-simplify and over-condense what he talks about, if you're going the same direction through the strings use an odd number of notes on each string and double up the same pickstroke (finger) when changing strings and an even number when changing direction. Welcome to the forum.

**derek** · 08-14-2009, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

Rasgueado is a strumming technique, not a picking one, so it may not be the best bet for sweep picking. The word itself means "strummed." It employs downstrokes and upstrokes -- and then some!

Yes, but the OP is talking about sweeping without a pick, and that is basically what one rasqueado stroke is no?

**FatJeff** · 08-14-2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

Rodrigo's 'Concierto de Aranjuez.'

Not to hijack the thread, but OMFG, this is one of my all time favorite classical guitar pieces! I had the pleasure of seeing it performed by Douglas Niedt a couple of years ago with the Longmont Philharmonic. Amazing song, amazing performance!

Here's the Pepe Romero version on YouTube:

BTW, you can see the "sweeping" technique at 8:30 of this video.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-14-2009, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Not to hijack the thread, but OMFG, this is one of my all time favorite classical guitar pieces!

To hijack this thread back to Jazz: Jim Hall, Concierto De Aranjuez:

Jim Hall! Chet Baker! Paul Desmond! Right up there with Sketches of Spain.

Now if I could only pronounce it so that it doesn't sound like "orange juice"

**bkdavidson** · 08-14-2009, 12:05 PM

Thanks, FatJeff. That's exactly the performance I was talking about. I may have spent 100 man hours trying to get the sweeps sounding like that for my senior recital; all 100 spent in vain, of course! And thanks to BigDaddyLoveHandles. I actually have that on vinyl! What about Steve Gadd and Ron Carter!

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-14-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

And thanks to BigDaddyLoveHandles. I actually have that on vinyl! What about Steve Gadd and Ron Carter!

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the mixing board"

... and Roland Hanna, too. Everything about that track is amazing. What about Jim Hall's tone? Creamy!

**Stackabones** · 08-14-2009, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by derek

Yes, but the OP is talking about sweeping without a pick, and that is basically what one rasqueado stroke is no?

No. Rasgueado is a strumming technique, not a picking technique. Perhaps you consider sweep picking to be a strumming technique?

**derek** · 08-14-2009, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

No. Rasgueado is a strumming technique, not a picking technique. Perhaps you consider sweep picking to be a strumming technique?

Well, when you sweep, you are hitting each string in rapid succession either going down or up, correct? One rasqueadi

would basically be the same thing, no?

Like with most things, it is entirely possible that I don't know what the hell I am talking about.

**Mr.Razo** · 10-02-2016, 06:22 PM

I made my own way of sweeping without a pick. It is definitely a sweep of as many notes as you want to play consecutively. It's a whole different ball game to play for the reason that you have to use all your fingers accept the pinky. What do you guys think?