Kreutzer etude and sweep picking (do you use it?how?)

[asafasadi]

Hello there,
I just recorded this kreutzer study, written originally for violin. It involves lots of sweep picking and triads.
I wonder if some of you use this kind of picking technique (sweep) in their own playing, and how.
For me it's a nice effect, but I try to not over do it while improvising.
Generally speaking, classical etudes are a good way to improve sight-reading and dexterity.
The great thing about kreutzer etudes is that they are very specific (legato, scales, arpeggios) and I'm surely not the first one discover that (I think also Vic Juris used them).

Let me know what you think,
I'm curious.


Asafa

[JakeAcci]

There are a lot of horn lines (especially bird stuff) that are quick successions of notes in intervals of thirds, often ascending - makes a lot of sense to 'sweep' that stuff.

Sweeping is really just pick strokes in one direction with, more or less, one note per string, right? If so, it's a pretty logical way to play most arpeggios.

Looks like I'm sweeping quite a lot here, and less subtly around the 0:50 mark: Instagram

[asafasadi]

very nice!
my 2 cents.
the problem with sweep is that is very hard to maintain a swing feel, the upside being that you can sweep your way trough add9 and so on stuff.

[JakeAcci]

very nice!
my 2 cents.
the problem with sweep is that is very hard to maintain a swing feel, the upside being that you can sweep your way trough add9 and so on stuff.

is it actually hard to maintain a swing feel though? It’s something I’ve worked on a lot and found it’s not so crazy/scary with enough time spent. I think that the time feel and dynamics are by default different, but can be overcome.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd say it might be an issue keeping swing feel if you're literally sweeping everything, but who does that?

[JakeAcci]

I'd say it might be an issue keeping swing feel if you're literally sweeping everything, but who does that?

I wonder about this sometimes - the common perspective is that it’s easier to ‘sweep’ (or do economy) faster but alternating strokes it’s easier to keep time and control accents and dynamics.


So if there’s something you can’t play then maybe you have to use economy and work hard to control accents and dynamics, or you have to use alternate and figure out how to push tempo. Both are challenging, but when we’re at upper limits of instrumental technique (say, burning up tempo 8th jazz lines) I wonder what will actually take more work for the average player, on average. Which approach will take more time.


We could speculate this, like, a LOT, and draw from anecdote, but personally I’m holding out for the peer-reviewed studies before I try to have any firm conclusions.

[mr. beaumont]

I wonder about this sometimes - the common perspective is that it’s easier to ‘sweep’ (or do economy) faster but alternating strokes it’s easier to keep time and control accents and dynamics.


So if there’s something you can’t play then maybe you have to use economy and work hard to control accents and dynamics, or you have to use alternate and figure out how to push tempo. Both are challenging, but when we’re at upper limits of instrumental technique (say, burning up tempo 8th jazz lines) I wonder what will actually take more work for the average player, on average. Which approach will take more time.


We could speculate this, like, a LOT, and draw from anecdote, but personally I’m holding out for the peer-reviewed studies before I try to have any firm conclusions.

It is interesting...but at the same time, I think the only thing that matters to me is being well versed "enough" in both so I have options when I get into situations...

[asafasadi]

I think that real freedom comes from alterante picking: I found myself playing lots of shapes when just doing economy or sweep picking.
As mr.beaumont says, it's best suited for certain situations (fast tempos and doubles). Anyway it's a very useful tool. Sweep and economy picking hardcore users sound right in funk and fusion, but not in jazz (I'm thinking gambale).

[JakeAcci]

It is interesting...but at the same time, I think the only thing that matters to me is being well versed "enough" in both so I have options when I get into situations...

well that’s boring! where’s your scientific spirit, Jeff???

[JakeAcci]

I think that real freedom comes from alterante picking: I found myself playing lots of shapes when just doing economy or sweep picking.

I find this stuff very interesting. You say you play lots of shapes when doing economy. Couldn't that very easily be remedied? That doesn't seem like a problem with economy picking, but with what material you are used to playing using the technique, or something like that.

Sweep and economy picking hardcore users sound right in funk and fusion, but not in jazz (I'm thinking gambale).

Do you think we actually have enough data to say this?


I only steer the discussion in this direction because I think with these issues we tend to draw conclusions based on limited data, correlation/causation issues, etc.


I am always interested in the concept of - if one were to start fresh, what we he/she do?


More specifically, I used to alternate everything but have been adopting economy in more and more situations, or combinations of the two that are somewhat nuanced.

[mr. beaumont]

well that’s boring! where’s your scientific spirit, Jeff???

Lol, I think I'm done with scientific analysis of music for a while. I get wrapped up in that stuff and I start forgetting tunes. My ape-brain can only hold so much, I tried memorizing some Barry Harris stuff last week and forgot where I parked my car.

[dasein]

I think that real freedom comes from alterante picking: I found myself playing lots of shapes when just doing economy or sweep picking.
As mr.beaumont says, it's best suited for certain situations (fast tempos and doubles). Anyway it's a very useful tool. Sweep and economy picking hardcore users sound right in funk and fusion, but not in jazz (I'm thinking gambale).

Jimmy Bruno, Chuck Wayne, and Pasquale Grasso use/used economy and sweep picking, and their jazz playing sounds more than fine to me.

[JakeAcci]

Jimmy Bruno, Chuck Wayne, and Pasquale Grasso use/used economy and sweep picking, and their jazz playing sounds more than fine to me.

I believe Tal Farlow too, and pretty confident Ben Monder and Kurt Rosenwinkel

[TLerch]

I would say that directional picking (my term for sweeping etc) has a specific sound and if thats the sound you want then use it. in my opinion, the music should dictate the technique not the other way around. As far as directional picking being less stable rhythmically, it just take a lot of work to make it stable. Once it becomes stable it is a great sound to have in your pallet.

all the best
Tim

[ginod]

I think that real freedom comes from alterante picking: I found myself playing lots of shapes when just doing economy or sweep picking.
As mr.beaumont says, it's best suited for certain situations (fast tempos and doubles). Anyway it's a very useful tool. Sweep and economy picking hardcore users sound right in funk and fusion, but not in jazz (I'm thinking gambale).

Most of the best jazz players use economy picking. so it absolute false to say, that economy and sweeping sound not right in jazz.

Lage Lund
Mike Moreno
Adam Rogers
Jimmy Bruno
Andreas Öberg

and so on and so on ...

[asafasadi]

Sorry for the late answer:

I think that my opinion has been misunderstood, at least a little. I was talking about sweep, not economy picking, first of all. Economy picking is certain a viable option for some charlie parker's stuff as previously said, even if it doesn't allow you to follow the beat whit your picking (down-downbeats,up-upbeats). For me that issue it's not a deal breaker. For sweep (one note per string,more or less) it's different(at least for me) because the motion has to be steady, and that brings some issues with articulation.

[JakeAcci]

I don't mean to nitpick, or come off as aggressive - I just think that trying to achieve clarity on these issues is helpful since we tend to get muddled in premature conclusions

I think that my opinion has been misunderstood, at least a little. I was talking about sweep, not economy picking, first of all.

I understand you're trying to distinguish essentially economy picking with mostly one-note-per-string vs playing with, well, more notes per string, but in the end we are talking about consecutive downstrokes as string-changes to the ground and consecutive upstrokes as string changes to the ceiling, and whether this is the exclusive action or only part of the action, the question of whether it's possible to control the rhythm and accent of this motion is still the issue.

Economy picking is certain a viable option for some charlie parker's stuff as previously said, even if it doesn't allow you to follow the beat whit your picking (down-downbeats,up-upbeats). For me that issue it's not a deal breaker. For sweep (one note per string,more or less) it's different(at least for me) because the motion has to be steady, and that brings some issues with articulation.

It definitely brings up issues with articulation, for sure. With the sweep, the speed is easily as long as you can coordinate the two hands, but the rhythms and accents are harder, for sure. But i think controlling them is possible, I’m tempted to believe that even getting whatever articulation you want is possible. I’ve been experimenting with this myself.


The issue that is always interesting to me is how do we push past our limitations? Do we keep ticking the metronome up with the systems we already use, or do we utilize different systems?


If we’re talking about slow/medium tempos than it doesn’t matter much, but these things become more significant issues when we are trying to push to a higher level.


I think I’ve made this point in other threads before, but I think that the things that can get us from (16th notes) 75bpm up to 125bpm may not be the things that get us from 125 to 175. More specifically, a lot of alternate pickers start topping out around that 125 mark. So do they then keep trying to muscle through with alternate, or adopt a different system?

[keith]

Sorry for the late answer:

I think that my opinion has been misunderstood, at least a little. I was talking about sweep, not economy picking, first of all. Economy picking is certain a viable option for some charlie parker's stuff as previously said, even if it doesn't allow you to follow the beat whit your picking (down-downbeats,up-upbeats). For me that issue it's not a deal breaker. For sweep (one note per string,more or less) it's different(at least for me) because the motion has to be steady, and that brings some issues with articulation.

I enjoyed it and liked the sound but I would suggest trying it without the reverb which will give you a better idea of how you're doing.

[asafasadi]

To jakeacci: you're right about speed/economy picking past 125/130 mark. I was referring to ginod about being misunderstood. (Most of the best jazz players use economy picking. so it absolute false to say, that economy and sweeping sound not right in jazz.) Anyway the distinction between speed (economy ) and sweep it's a borrow from gambale.
To keith: I studied it without effects or whatsoever, but then, since I'm tired of being a taliban of clean sound, I tried to add some delay, just to see the effect. In some sense I find that it makes this study more musical. In addition to that, if you're not following the tempo with the delay you'll hear it asap.

[dasein]

Economy picking is certain a viable option for some charlie parker's stuff as previously said, even if it doesn't allow you to follow the beat whit your picking (down-downbeats,up-upbeats).

It's true that alternate picking is much more consistent. "Downbeat = downstroke, upbeat = upstroke." I've known players who swear by it, and it works for them.

But I've personally found that approach didn't help me sound like the players I wanted to sound like. There are a lot of players I love who simply use too much of a legato sound, and "blur" the notes (Coltrane, Dolphy, Ornette, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, etc). Other players I love have very strong and precise articulation, but it's much too unpredictable (Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, Bud Powell, Herbie Hancock, even Lester Young and Louis Armstrong). You can't tell where the accents in their line are going to be ahead of time, their rhythms and lines are asymmetrical.

Regardless of how you pick, you're going to have to work on accent control, it's unavoidable. Miles Okazaki is a great example of a guy who uses very strict alternate picking, but also emphasizes spending a lot of time working on accent control.

Strict alternate picking that aligns with the downbeats works great on stuff like bluegrass.

[ginod]

Regardless of how you pick, you're going to have to work on accent control, it's unavoidable. Miles Okazaki is a great example of a guy who uses very strict alternate picking, but also emphasizes spending a lot of time working on accent control.

Thats true. I discovered more and more, that accents are one of the most important topics in jazz.
I have checked out Miles Okazaki. For me it looks, that he use economy picking very often but maybe he plays to fast to really see what he is doing. But on the first view, it looks very economy like.