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Hi,
I'm a HUGE Wes Montgomery fan (who isn't?
) and I always wanted to master his right hand technique because to me nothing sounds warmer and smother than your thumb. I always played everything Jazz related with a flatpick but recently I started to use my thumb pretty much everytime I grab my ES 165.
Coming from years of Gypsy Jazz, apply the "rest stroke" technique to the thumb was relatively easy to do, but I want to go deeper into it and learn as much as I can.
I'm looking for a good book about his right hand technique, do you have something to reccomend?
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01-16-2017 07:01 AM
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I don't know of a book on this, I would just say keep doing it and it will improve. Over the years I've used my thumb quite a bit when I couldn't be bothered to look for the pick, and it's surprising how much facility you can get with it. But it didn't come overnight.
I've found I can even do upstrokes a bit with the thumb now, it opens up a sort of limited alternate picking which is handy.
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Wes Montgomery had a double-jointed thumb, let's not forget. I'm wondering how many folks are trying to copy what he did with their normal thumbs?
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Jim Mullen does a pretty good job with a normal thumb as far as I know.
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I'm not an anatomy expert so I can't say if having a double-jointed thumb would make things easier, but this technique is definitely doable with a "normal" thumb, at least for me. Or maybe my thumb is double-jointed too, I don't know. :P
Playing this way forced me to rely more on melody, "context" phrasing, expressivity and less on licks and common arpeggios I would normally do. It's inevitable, if you think about it: you can't play as fast as you do with a flatpick so you're forced to give more attention to every note you play and develop a different kind of solo approach.
The use of legato, hammer on, pull-off and sweep picking will come out naturally over time, as well as playing the fingerboard more vertically than horizontally. That makes things easier and helps developing decent speed.
The reason why I'm asking for a book about Wes Montgomery right hand technique is because I feel stuck. I learned the basics but I'd like to play some exercises and get new ideas.
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Double jointed or not, just about everything Wes did with that thumb was a downstroke.
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So... recommend me a book. Why not?
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I don't know of one.
Personally, I'd grab a real book, work on some easy heads thumb only, then play them as octaves. Watch some Wes vids, see how he "anchors" his hand (though I'm not sure that part is necessary)
See you in 1000 hours or so
(Actually, this sounds like fun, I know what I'm doing today.)
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I'm trying to imagine what a book on the Wes thumb technique would look like. Might be more of a pamphlet.
What is making you feel "stuck"? Is it a speed thing? Fluidity?
If you're just looking for exercises, any would work. Find some exercises you like and make the thumb technique work for them. To have them be "thumb specific" would defeat the purpose.
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I play with my thumb and am not double jointed and am no where any where close to sounding like Wes
I have noticed that the angle at which the thumb is striking the strings dramatically changes the tone . Striking the string with the thumb basically parallel to the string and using the side of the thumb produces a comparatively bright tone. If you angle your thumb so it is striking the string more at a 45 degree angle to the string and starting the stroke angled up at 45 degrees so when you down stroke you are now using the flat fleshy underside of your thumb and the tone is very Wes like- full warm and rounded.I have to angle my wrist in at maybe 30 to 40 degrees to get my thumb in the right position/attitude to get the tone I like. Perhaps that is where his double jointed thumb comes in as he looks like he naturally does the 45/45 degree stroke. Hope that helps
Will
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Buy Steve Khan's book and practice sections as "exercises:" The West Montgomery Guitar Folio: Steve Khan: 9780615397566: Amazon.com: Books
I'm also not aware of any "Wes' Thumb" technique books.
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I think this is key -- along with your observation that most of what Wes did was a downstroke. Anyone who wants to study his style will soon find that played most of his lines by moving up and down the neck -- not staying in one position for very long.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Mark Stefani has a series called "Thumbprints" (I believe) where he teaches Wes-style lines using either pick or thumb. I once wrote to him about it, and he said one of the ways to introduce yourself to that way of playing is to take lines you already know, and restrict yourself to playing them at tempo, using only downstrokes. That way, you force yourself to find notes in different places along the neck. The series isn't advertised on his site, but available if you contact him and ask for it. Mark's very accessible by phone or e-mail, and I'm sure he'd be able to tell you more than I have about playing like Wes. He'd also most likely tell you that Wolf Marshall is the go-to guy when it comes to learning Wes note-for-note.
Vision Music's "Contact" Page
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Both things, mostly speed. Originally Posted by morroben
When using my thumb I tend to use different fingerings. A vertical approach on the fingerboard is easier and more natural, I'd like to see some examples of the exact fingerings and techniques he used (legato, hammer on, pull off etc.) because I come from a different style of playing and tend to approach the fingerboard differently. Some times I get it by myself, some times I don't and struggle expecially with faster passages. I'm almost there but I'm missing something.
After a while I found myself anchoring my right hand on the pickguard exactly like he did and my thumb angle is just right. I don't have any problem getting a round warm tone, I need to find a way to be more fluid. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
I play with my thumb and am not double jointed and am no where any where close to sounding like Wes I have noticed that the angle at which the thumb is striking the strings dramatically changes the tone . Striking the string with the thumb basically parallel to the string and using the side of the thumb produces a comparatively bright tone. If you angle your thumb so it is striking the string more at a 45 degree angle to the string and starting the stroke angled up at 45 degrees so when you down stroke you are now using the flat fleshy underside of your thumb and the tone is very Wes like- full warm and rounded.I have to angle my wrist in at maybe 30 to 40 degrees to get my thumb in the right position/attitude to get the tone I like. Perhaps that is where his double jointed thumb comes in as he looks like he naturally does the 45/45 degree stroke. Hope that helps
Will
Maybe I just need something new to practice over, without a "guide" I tend to play the same things that I'm able to play and that's why I'm stuck, I guess.
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I didn't know about this series but I do know that Mark's a great guy and, although busy, responsive to those who write and ask him things. I keep hoping we'll see more of him around here... Originally Posted by snailspace
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Wolf Marshall's book has what you're looking for as far as slurs, hammer-on, pull-offs, etc. I have the book (in fact, I'm working on "Missile Blues" -- the first selection -- right now), but I don't recall that he says too much about fingerings. Any video will show that Wes mainly used the first three left-hand fingers for playing lines, although he did use his little finger from time to time. Originally Posted by emicad
Best of Wes Montgomery, Signature Licks - Hal Leonard Online
The 625 Alive book is reportedly even more detailed, and (because it was transcribed from a performance video) does include fingerings. I don't have this one yet, but -- because I've designated the next twelve practice months as "The Year of Wes" -- it's high on my list.
WesMontgomeryBook.com *
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I've wondered for a long time how he fingered West Coast Blues. I know he used position shifts a lot. Here and there, I've been able to figure out something that suddenly made one of his lines easy to play -- usually involving slides and position shifts rather than being in one position and stretching.
But, for West Coast Blues, I can't seem to find the key. I can play it my own way without difficulty, but when I try to use three fingers, I can't figure out how he must have done it. Unless, he used his pinkie for this tune.
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There's a few seconds of Wes seen playing it at 7 minutes in on this video: Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I found a tab online and I changed some fingering patterns to make things more fluid using the thumb. I'll post a tab as soon as I learn the theme. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Here is an article I found on Wes Montgomery's "sound" that includes some discussion of the thumb technique. Don't know if it will help or not, but I hope it does.
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I've wondered for a long time how he fingered West Coast Blues. I know he used position shifts a lot. Here and there, I've been able to figure out something that suddenly made one of his lines easy to play -- usually involving slides and position shifts rather than being in one position and stretching.
But, for West Coast Blues, I can't seem to find the key. I can play it my own way without difficulty, but when I try to use three fingers, I can't figure out how he must have done it. Unless, he used his pinkie for this tune.
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There was an article about Wes's right hand and thumb technique in the August '98 issue of Guitar Player magazine. The issue was actually a Wes tribute.
The article itself is just a few paragraphs long, really just mentioning how he extended his index and middle fingers, and rested them on the guitars sound board, (hence the mother of pearl decoration on the upper bout cutaway side, where he'd actually worn through the guitar finish).
Here's a copy for sale,
GUITAR PLAYER MAGAZINE WES MONTGOMERY SONIC YOUTH RARE
I have a copy of this issue somewhere.
To be honest, I would suggest watching some videos of Wes playing live. Some close scrutiny of his hand will probably give a better idea than a written description.
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Lots of infos, thanks guys.
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The best Wes Montgomery book -- hands down, no question -- is "625 Alive: The BBC Performance Transcribed" by Tim Fitzgerald.
WesMontgomeryBook.com *
Tim took Wes' BBC video and transcribed everything with the exact fingerings.
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Just out of curiosity, and relevance to this thread on Wes's right hand technique, I wondered if anyone might be familiar with either of these items about Wes,
Firstly, a book,titled the "Wes Montgomery, Jazz Guitar Method". This was published in 1968, and as far as I know, was the first book on Wes's style. Anyone familiar with it, or know if it describes "the thumb" technique ? (Good pic of "the thumb" on the cover BTW),
Jazz guitar method: Amazon.co.uk: Wes Montgomery: Books
Also, author/teacher/player, Adrian Ingram did a DVD some years back, anyone know if this has any relevant info?
The Guitar Style of Wes Montgomery [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: Adrian Ingram: DVD & Blu-ray
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I contacted Tim to get the book, it seems a great resource. Originally Posted by dasein
I can't understand if audio samples are included in the book or do I need to get the DVD? An audio CD would be enough for me, just for reference.
PS: I did some online research and I discovered the my thumb is probably double jointed. I'm not 100% sure and I don't care that much, I was just curious.Last edited by emicad; 01-18-2017 at 10:16 AM.
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