Wrist pain while playing octaves

[maya145]

I generally don't get any pain when playing guitar, but I've been playing some Wes octave lines that give me a lot of wrist pain. Any suggestions for technique adjustments?
Thanks!

[JakeAcci]

Hi Maya, not specifically on octaves, but I made along video on left hand health. Near the end I talk about chords and the same principles can be applied to octaves. I would imagine that limiting how often you are using the pinky would likely help.

[maya145]

thank you!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hi Maya, not specifically on octaves,

Nice. You're great on video, Jake. Good one and great chops. What kind of support is that you're using?

[JakeAcci]

Nice. You're great on video, Jake. Good one and great chops. What kind of support is that you're using?

Hey thanks Matt!


I am using the ‘neck up mini’ with my traveler ag105. So much to say about positioning and the whole body as well, but like I said in the video, wanted to isolate in talking about the hand.

[Vladan]

Where are your nails?

[Tomcat]

Hi Maya, not specifically on octaves, but I made along video on left hand health. Near the end I talk about chords and the same principles can be applied to octaves. I would imagine that limiting how often you are using the pinky would likely help.

really nice job, right to the bone

[Jonah]

Hi Maya, not specifically on octaves, but I made along video on left hand health. Near the end I talk about chords and the same principles can be applied to octaves. I would imagine that limiting how often you are using the pinky would likely help.

Great video.

But most healthy is not always the best for music)))

I hate healthy stuff... just kidding)))
But I like grabbing chords, using thumb over the neck and all that...

Pain is not always a problem. You cannot make a good athlet without pain, same thing here. One just should be careful to determine ithe character of this pain, where it comes from...

I think personal physiology is really important. Even now after so many years I adopt new things easily... I mean I did not play lots of stretches, but then I came across some ideas with stretches and in a week I had not problem with it, same thing was with thumb over the neck... I was classical never thought to do it, but I liked some voicings and ideas and quite quickly learnt to do it... then I could not play basic sus chord with thumb over... and I wanted to.. soon I learnet.
I do not see anything specific here, just probably personal physiology.
in all cases first I had some pains but quickly I got through.

In average of course the posture in video should be more healthy (I secnonded this posture too since I was trained classical as a kid) but with years I came to the point that people are so different - physiology is extremely different too...
It's ok to try to establish posture and all with kids... but with adults - even beginners - I came to the point that it should be very individual... I just show some basic things and ask them to find what's comfortable for them - then we elaborate something...

For example you have long fingers - that's why I believe your left hand is turned into too much an angle to neck for a healthy position in my opinion... in my understanding the 1st finger should be more paralel to frets or even at an angle to make all the wrist more cello-hand. The most healthy after all would be when the left arm holding the neck and relaxed just hangs vertically and an elbowalmost tounches the body...
But I understand that this way it works better for guys with maybe smaller and grabby hands... so I see no problem with it. Everyone shoudl adjust it for himself.

For me the point is to avoid pains and to be efficient technically and musically.


On the topic
Stuck pinky often causes pain in the wrist... but it's impossible to say what can be adjusted without seeing what's going on now.

[grahambop]

Octaves hurt like hell when you first start doing them. Even Wes said they gave him a headache.

Eventually the hand adapts and they get easier, but it's a slow process (well it was in my case). Just don't overdo it at first.

[pkirk]

Octaves hurt like hell when you first start doing them. Even Wes said they gave him a headache.

Eventually the hand adapts and they get easier, but it's a slow process (well it was in my case). Just don't overdo it at first.

what grahambop says.


I've been on a Wes kick recently, and at first octaves were tiring, I think they must use some hand muscles that don't get used much otherwise. But man does practicing playing in octaves do wonders for my improv. You can't stay in position, so your ear has to reign supreme...

[grahambop]

I still sometimes do the annoying thing where my brain can't decide for a moment whether to orientate on the fretboard by the lower note (1st finger) or the upper note (3rd or 4th finger). Sort of like having double vision for a split second, weird.

[coolvinny]

Hmmm. I usually use my pinky for octaves. I think healthy octave playing is more about avoiding a bent wrist. Obviously this is easier if your normal (non-octave) style of playing is with a straight wrist too.

[Vladan]

I still sometimes do the annoying thing where my brain can't decide for a moment whether to orientate on the fretboard by the lower note (1st finger) or the upper note (3rd or 4th finger). Sort of like having double vision for a split second, weird.

I think deciding and sticking with
either 3rd or 4th helps in that matter.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[grahambop]

I think deciding and sticking with
either 3rd or 4th helps in that matter.

Possibly, although I have trained myself to use 3rd finger on top when the fret spacing is 3 frets and 4th finger when it's 4 frets, so it is automatic now and I prefer this approach.

To be honest it doesn't happen often, just when I get a brain fart or something while playing. I probably need to focus always on the lower note.

Don't forget you can also play 2 octaves, i.e. 1st finger on 6th string and 3rd or 4th finger on 1st string. Wes did do this very occasionally but obviously the range is a bit limited. It's an interesting sound though.

From memory, I think Wes does it on the live version of Here's That Rainy Day (from that Radio France concert which has Johnny Griffin on a couple of tracks).

[Jonah]

I think pain with octaves playing comes because the hand is in the same shape all the time...
And when you try to move quickly from one note to another it's like you just move the shape along the neck + changing strings from time to time...
At the beginning it can cause to much efforts: you try to keep the shape and to hit the correct notes...

The same thing happens with pianists playing octaves - at the beginning they try to forcus on precision... and the hand gets stuck...

In a way the beginners try to make the process too concious

Though on the contrary the wrist must relaxed as much as possible... that will increase precision too. You just make kind of 'blind jump'.

One of the excersises that could help:


Right hand does not play anything
1) put your left hand in position like xxx2x5 (A in cotave)
2) then you try to relax the arm, the hand and the wrist as much as possible, the only effort is fingers on the strings and a thumb on the neck for support. The should be like a pendulum if you push it. Just give it time. Let it relax.
3) then in one swift motion move your hand to xxx5x8 (C)... the idea is to do it immidiately without aiming without much concentration - just in one light move along the neck... if you missed the correct note do not try to correct it...
You can try again but do not correct position after you made a 'jump'.
4) let it hang and feel the relax again...

Frist you do it without right hand, then you add the right hand too

At the beginning it may be better to have a wider step in intervals... like jusmping from a-a to d-d (on 1st and 3rd strings)...

The narrower the interval is the more stuck your hand will be because you have less space for relaxed hand move, and you try to be more accurate etc.




Young pianists - when practicing octaves - often miss the notes... but they should not correct it... it should be only important to understand that they missed it. The techique is to 'drop' the wrist on the keyboard...

Of course 'dropping' is not the best word for guitar... but the feeling is approxamately the same...

[JakeAcci]

Great video.

Thanks!

But most healthy is not always the best for music)))

If your technique results in your not being able to play music, then.....!

But I like grabbing chords, using thumb over the neck and all that...

I do too - I discuss this at the end of the video, kind of a separate technique with some other considerations.

Pain is not always a problem. You cannot make a good athlet without pain, same thing here. One just should be careful to determine ithe character of this pain, where it comes from...

Yes..sort of...fatigue happens, certain types of pain are part of the process, but mainly I would see pain as a negative to be avoided.

In average of course the posture in video should be more healthy (I secnonded this posture too since I was trained classical as a kid) but with years I came to the point that people are so different - physiology is extremely different too...
It's ok to try to establish posture and all with kids... but with adults - even beginners - I came to the point that it should be very individual... I just show some basic things and ask them to find what's comfortable for them - then we elaborate something...

Posture is a pretty big topic, I say in the video that if we were to get into that it would be more like a 40-60 minute video rather than 15, hah.

For example you have long fingers - that's why I believe your left hand is turned into too much an angle to neck for a healthy position in my opinion... in my understanding the 1st finger should be more paralel to frets or even at an angle to make all the wrist more cello-hand. The most healthy after all would be when the left arm holding the neck and relaxed just hangs vertically and an elbowalmost tounches the body...

I am not sure what is being described here.

[Jonah]

I am not sure what is being described here.

here the followung has been described

This video is about baroque lute left hand, but it can be applied to guitar either... I used this vid because it's just the one I could remember immediately
from approx. 04:00