Want to improve my Swing Phrasing

[Hatim]

Hi Ginod,

Thanks for the video. It's really brave to post, but very helpful. Listening to your playing tells so much more than words.
I recognize much of your playing in my own playing. Struggling with 8ths and triplets and phrasing etc.

I think your 8th are actually fine.
I really like the beginning in 8ths (0.09-0.15).

What I notice is that you stop your lines of 8ths at the end of bar 2 (and bar 6, 10, 14 etc.)
Try to play the tune again and now make lines of 8ths one bar longer. Bar 1, 2 and 3. Then bar 5, 6 and 7 etc. You will get totally different lines and sentences.

Oh well, I might as well record Out of Nowhere on the same tempo:
You hear me playing lines of three bars and then pause.
I exaggerate to make it clear. You hear me also playing not so perfect 8th, but that isn't so very important.



Tip: don't start playing triplets on bar 3 (or 7, or 11 etc.). Start them somewhere in bar 4 (or 8, or 12 etc)

Succes with playing.
Hans

[mr. beaumont]

I think if you're actively thinking about accenting every upbeat, you're a dead man. It'll never swing.

You've got to learn to sing lines. Also, understand the concept of swing has changed over time. A lick that might sound great on a gypsy jazz gig might sound square on a hard bop style gig. There's no catch all.

I always suggest going back to the melody. Learn the melody of a tune and learn to play it like a singer. Then you can try playing "more." When playing eighths at first, don't try to accent anything. Relax and play even. Get to a point where you can do that before worrying about which beat gets accented. Listen to early Jimmy Raney. Those eighths were damn even and he still sounds hip as hell.

[destinytot]

I think if you're actively thinking about accenting every upbeat, you're a dead man.

Unless you're playing Ska...

[wzpgsr]

I think if you're actively thinking about accenting every upbeat, you're a dead man. It'll never swing.

You've got to learn to sing lines.

I think nothing truer (more true?) has ever been said on this topic. I'm working through Richie Zellon's bebop blues course and a big part of this course is writing etudes using prescribed "rhythm templates"--basically plugging chord tones and the embellishments du jour onto staff paper with the rhythmic values predefined for you. Although the rhythm templates are constructed using common jazz rhythms, it quickly becomes apparent how square you're gonna sound if you don't work like hell to make them swing. For me, singing the lines of the etudes while I play them helps immeasurably. It's really amazing to me how I internally hear these vibrant and dynamic accents, and how they seem to come alive in my playing just by vocalizing them.

[matt.guitarteacher]

A slow blues loaded with every kind of triplet poly rhythm and subdivision you can think of is one thing which can teach you to feel swing, even at higher tempos, better than just about anything. Swing isn't just accents and placement of notes in time. It's also about the releases of those notes, when they're cut off, and accent patterns which incorporate the 2nd triplet between your swing eighths, like basic quarter note triplets and their off-beat counterparts.

When you get a lot more slow triplet patterns under your fingers and in your ears, eventually, swing eighths feel huge and are much easier to lock. Things that are perceived as "feels" at faster tempos are actually very understandable RHYTHMS at slower tempos . They can be taken apart and really worked on.

Take something like this blues from Billie holiday . It's so stinking slow and has so many players on it that it's really easy to hear as basically a 12/8, but then there is all that greasy goodness in between even those eighth note triplets. I mean, there is something happening on nearly every eighth note triplet from one player or another. Tons of juxtaposition of quarter note triplets, especially by Billie, and other rhythmic relationships throughout. I think people often think of Billie is being really loose, and I guess she is, compared to some other straight style of music. But on this, with all the subdivisions present with this large number of musicians, you can really hear just how locked in she really is.

Honestly, this is just in a different universe from western classical European 12/8. I seriously wonder that the problem isn't often that we're using SWING EIGHTHS as the STARTING POINT in the first place... as if you can learn to hear it more easily BEFORE understanding the basis of it.

[christianm77]

A big problem is that some players have this idea that jazz rhythm is 'loose' or 'behind' - it's not. That's just the effect it creates.

No one should just 'float rhythmically' - they can create a sensation of floating by referencing the right rhythms and executing them accurately. The quarter triplet is a classic example.

[oldane]

... as if you can learn to hear it more easily BEFORE understanding the basis of it.

+1. Until the advent of bebop, jazz was more about HEARING it than understanding it. The old swing time players all honed their skill by listening to and exchanging with other musicians rather than going to Juliard. I think it was Leonard Feather who mentioned Ben Webster and Jack Teagarden as examples of those older musicians where it was hard to hear "where they ended and the horn began".

Old lady to Fats Waller: "Mr. Waller, what is this swing you all talk about?"
Fats Waller: "Well mam', if you haven't figured it out by now, forget it!"

Hip trumpet player when hearing Louis Armstrong play Dixieland: "Man, who want's to hear that old shit?"
Dizzy Gillespie replying: "If you had listened more to that old shit, you would have been playing better!"

[christianm77]

I think that's true even after bop. It's still about the feel & rhythm, street slang turned into music as Steve Coleman describes it... sure they might have talked a bit about harmony, but nothing like now....

[ginod]

Thank you so much for all this great advices. Especially the audio and video files which some people shared were really helpful.

I have recorded one more video. In this video i play the Bebop Tune Blues for Alice. The tempo is higher and some people wanted to hear some Bebop Theme and lines. In this video i have made a focus on playing nice accents, 3 against 4 etc. ..

All your comments, critics and thoughts are welcome :-) . I think the Theme could be much better :-/.

Dropbox - bluesforalice.mp4

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thank you so much for all this great advices. Especially the audio and video files which some people shared were really helpful.

I have recorded one more video. In this video i play the Bebop Tune Blues for Alice. The tempo is higher and some people wanted to hear some Bebop Theme and lines. In this video i have made a focus on playing nice accents, 3 against 4 etc. ..

All your comments, critics and thoughts are welcome :-) . I think the Theme could be much better :-/.

Dropbox - bluesforalice.mp4

Ginod, I think you're playing sounds great! Much better than me in most respects for sure. I'd say you're about 95% there. As far as the timing/swing feel, I think your concerns, as far as what you're hearing, are valid. I think that if you spent some serious time shedding something like blues for Alice at a tempo where you can articulate 16th triplets easily, half speed or slower to start, and then, actually shed the crap out of it on sixteenths etc., you might see more of the improvement you're looking for. You have to tune your ears and hands to articulating these smaller subdivisions to make the target smaller. It's what athletes do, in aiming for the smallest part of the target, rather than aiming for the whole thing.

I've never been a fast player, but the thing that has probably helped my time/feel the most, at all tempos, is shedding SMALLER sub divisions at SLOWER tempos. It makes a lot of sense, if you think about it. In non-swing time, you're always hearing at a level of subdivision LOWER than what you're actually playing, right? If you're playing quarter notes or eighth notes straight, and you aren't hearing the 16th at the next level down, you're not going to lock. This one is super easy to hear in beginning music students, something which a lot of us hear too much of. :-) In swing it's a little more complicated because it's basically triple meter though. Right?

Anyway, find a tempo at which you can articulate blues for Alice changes on all eighth note triplets the whole way through using ONLY down strokes. Once you're good with downstroke triplets and feel them solidly, start adding up-strokes in between, then the sixteenths. Once you learn to hear solidly at a subdivision of the beat which is on the next level DOWN from your target, the "real" target level begins to feel HUGE and at a certain point of internalization, seems to translate automatically to higher tempos without even working on them specifically there. This always strikes me as the rhythmic equivalent of a tessellation, or like the musical equivalent of what's going on in the movie Inception. Ha. :-)

Wes is the king of this. He always seems to hear at the next level down, hears the notes in between, apparently regardless of how fast it is. When listening to Wes, don't just listen to the main notes of what he is playing. Listen to the cutoffs/ releases/muting, the grace notes, ghost notes etc. These are almost perfectly articulated at a really high-level of subdivision. It's one of the things which makes him lock so well and swing harder than just about anyone. It's why he always seems to have another level of doubletime which sounds free and easy, again, regardless of tempo?

Consider this: if you're practicing smaller subdivisions at slower tempos you're STILL actually practicing articulating the pick and fingers FASTER, assuming that you're practicing at any tempo above HALF.

Slower tempo but faster articulations. Just my gut level feeling.

[christianm77]

Yeah I really like what Matt said.

Now my feedback is basically that I do not feel as an improvisor you yet have enough vocabulary to swing. I don't see this fundamentally as a problem with your time, in fact.

You also have plenty of technique and an understanding of harmony but these aren't yet working to produce mature jazz lines.

Rhythm, melody and harmony are all intertwined in bebop. (This is why bebop is used as a training ground for jazz musicians to this day, incidentally.)

So what to do? Well there's lots of things you can do, but I would recommend for now taking Blues for Alice and practicing that until you get it really good. Take it to bits and see what is happening with the notes on the chords and the rhythm. Adapt what you find and see its you come up with your own ideas based on that.

Do this with enough bebop heads and you will have all the language you need. Many people also learn solos, of course.

Play it with the record.

Try playing it with a metronome on 1+ and 3+.

[mr. beaumont]

Took a listen.

I don't think it has much to do with language or swing feel. It's time in general, it's all over the place.

I'm guessing you've done a lot of practice with backing tracks?

No worries! I got good news. You've got plenty of skill, and have some interesting lines. I even liked the chopsy stuff you threw in. We just gotta get you settled down and in a groove.

Throw the tracks away. Tracks are a false sense of security, because if you yake off and land in place, you assume what was in the middle was okay. Try working with a metronome. Play with real people every chance you get, avoid the ones who feel the need to correct your playing while jamming.

Record yourself often. Take small phrases and really focus on locking into the groove.

I won't say anymore, you've already got plenty of good advice above. Hang in there, you're gonna be just fine.

[christianm77]

I agree about the backing track thing.

But a word of caution. While you should (probably) practice with a metronome, use it intelligently, and only around 50%-75% of the time. The rest of the time record your playing unaccompanied and listen critically to it - perhaps play along. Can you feel the tempo? Can you feel the pulse? Playing along with records is a great idea too.

Good drummers understand the difference between click time and human time. In fact some of the best drummers of all time are ANYTHING but metronomic. So how come they swing?

Years ago I was told to 'work on my time' and I dutifully practiced with a metronome. My time probably got a bit better. But it didn't make me a rhythmically interesting player or a truly swinging one because all I was doing was locking 8th note lines into a metronomic click. I wasn't playing rhythmic phrases, I was trying to correct music that wasn't rhythmic to start with.

That in itself really isn't jazz.

What helped me and continues to help me is the realisation that rhythm is an art form and an intrinsic part of the language. For example - you could take the rhythms of a Charlie Parker tune without any notes at all and you would be able to recognise what head it was. That suggest to me that Bird was hearing rhythm first and foremost.

So - swing phrasing isn't about correcting something. It's about getting to the core of the music. There's only one way to do this - absorb the music. Get inside the rhythms.

Furthermore different traditions of music have different ways of feeling rhythm and different rhythmic vocabularies. The jazz way of feeling rhythm is very specific. To talk about about working on 'rhythm' is as empty as talking about working on 'scales.' You need a context.

Playing with the best musicians you can find is obviously a terribly important part of this, as is listening and getting really interested in the rhythms musicians are playing. This could be any kind of music TBH, to learn swing feel you obviously need to listen to and play with great jazz musicians. But, as with pitch choice in lines, a concept can help sometimes.

TBH, I feel a video coming on.

[emanresu]

I would spend a few minutes playing some random melodies before recording. Sailor's hornpipe. And hm. that ode to joy of course. And a few others. Try that, see if your solo starts to make more sense. Its a trick, just try. Anyways, you play pretty great already.

[christianm77]

Btw I don't want to be discouraging at all. I may come across as being super critical here, but I am taking ginod seriously as a player, and I applaud his desire to improve and his openness with his process. He will get there if he keeps this attitude.

Secondly I also want to make clear that this is the exact same stuff that I am working on all the time. I am harsh with everyone including myself, because when I hear any of the players that I like I hear no rhythmic weakness and great rhythms all the time.

For me, Either I for aim this (probably never get there, but get better), or I hang my guitar up.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Btw I don't want to be discouraging at all. I may come across as being super critical here, but I am taking ginod seriously as a player, and I applaud his desire to improve and his openness with his process. He will get there if he keeps this attitude.

Secondly I also want to make clear that this is the exact same stuff that I am working on all the time. I am harsh with everyone including myself, because when I hear any of the players that I like I hear no rhythmic weakness and great rhythms all the time.

For me, Either I for aim this (probably never get there, but get better), or I hang my guitar up.

Yep. Props to Ginod as well for playing at that level and seeking to further tweak it. Many would be content with it there or oblivious to what he's even talking about, but that's really some of the best stuff to be pursued in music.

[christianm77]

I've just thought of another thing about time/feel.

While there is obviously a very mathematical aspect to rhythm, time/feel is also very much about people.

One thing I dislike about the advice 'play with the best people you can' is that interpreted the wrong way it can lead to a rather mercenary form of music making that isn't about building a relationship.

This doesn't square to me with Elvin's answer to the question 'how can you guys (the Coltrane quartet) play together like that?' - 'you have to be ready to die for the motherfucker.'

There are lots players who book high profile hired guns for their bands, but sometimes you listen to them and it sounds like they are all playing different music. It never felt intuitively right to me to follow the type of career building that involves putting bands together with high profile musicians for tours, even though I can see it's benefits... For me, I feel what Hal Galper refers as 'the Tribal attitude' is important to me.

There's been a lot of all star bands that have failed to become more than the sum of their parts, and many unknowns who conquer the scene just by playing brilliantly together.

One reason for this is time/feel. An example from my own life - I spent 5 years playing around 150 gigs a year with the same rhythm section. Great players, and we developed a way of playing together, but we were all, it's fair to say, pushers. Zero tolerance for dragging!

But now I am playing with players with a more metronomic time concept. At first they feel like they drag - it's not a tempo thing, it's a beat placement thing. They are just placing their notes in the middle of the beat. Now, I started off being quite haughty, but over time realised that I had to find a different way to feel the swing. Recordings helped me evaluate this.

So being too individualist about developing a time sense, or assuming it is the same for every band you play in, is a mistake. You should always aim to play with the musicians you are with. Some you might hit it off with right away, while others take more time. Some players, sure, have bad time, but you have to find a way of dealing with those gigs.

So my advice? Find some like minded musicians whose playing you like and play and play with them. Develop together and learn to be open with each other.

[pkirk]

I've just thought of another thing about time/feel.

While there is obviously a very mathematical aspect to rhythm, time/feel is also very much about people.

One thing I dislike about the advice 'play with the best people you can' is that interpreted the wrong way it can lead to a rather mercenary form of music making that isn't about building a relationship.

This doesn't square to me with Elvin's answer to the question 'how can you guys (the Coltrane quartet) play together like that?' - 'you have to be ready to die for the motherfucker.'

There are lots players who book high profile hired guns for their bands, but sometimes you listen to them and it sounds like they are all playing different music. It never felt intuitively right to me to follow the type of career building that involves putting bands together with high profile musicians for tours, even though I can see it's benefits... For me, I feel what Hal Galper refers as 'the Tribal attitude' is important to me.

There's been a lot of all star bands that have failed to become more than the sum of their parts, and many unknowns who conquer the scene just by playing brilliantly together.

One reason for this is time/feel. An example from my own life - I spent 5 years playing around 150 gigs a year with the same rhythm section. Great players, and we developed a way of playing together, but we were all, it's fair to say, pushers. Zero tolerance for dragging!

But now I am playing with players with a more metronomic time concept. At first they feel like they drag - it's not a tempo thing, it's a beat placement thing. They are just placing their notes in the middle of the beat. Now, I started off being quite haughty, but over time realised that I had to find a different way to feel the swing. Recordings helped me evaluate this.

So being too individualist about developing a time sense, or assuming it is the same for every band you play in, is a mistake. You should always aim to play with the musicians you are with. Some you might hit it off with right away, while others take more time. Some players, sure, have bad time, but you have to find a way of dealing with those gigs.

So my advice? Find some like minded musicians whose playing you like and play and play with them. Develop together and learn to be open with each other.

Good post Christian. I find that locking in with one rhythm section can be a completely different experience from locking in with another even when both are equally accomplished. How the bass player approaches time has a profound effect on how I play.

[ragman1]

Thank you so much for all this great advices. Especially the audio and video files which some people shared were really helpful.

I have recorded one more video. In this video i play the Bebop Tune Blues for Alice. The tempo is higher and some people wanted to hear some Bebop Theme and lines. In this video i have made a focus on playing nice accents, 3 against 4 etc. ..

All your comments, critics and thoughts are welcome :-) . I think the Theme could be much better :-/.

Dropbox - bluesforalice.mp4

My other theory is this...

I think your swung 8ths are much better on BFA than the first one. I think that's because you knew what you were going to play. Also louder because the confidence is there. It might have been just a little too fast for you but the same applies.

I think, on the first vid, that you were thinking about what notes/fingerings you were going to use and you were distracted from the rhythm.

You could test this out if you want. Get a very simple medium-pace swing track and play something easy over it, something you don't have to worry about. My guess is you'll swing along perfectly well over it.

Just an idea. If you find that you can actually swing perfectly well then you'll know it's not your rhythm, it's the complexity of the music.

And if not, then I'm wrong :-)

[mr. beaumont]

Btw I don't want to be discouraging at all. I may come across as being super critical here, but I am taking ginod seriously as a player, and I applaud his desire to improve and his openness with his process. He will get there if he keeps this attitude.

Secondly I also want to make clear that this is the exact same stuff that I am working on all the time. I am harsh with everyone including myself, because when I hear any of the players that I like I hear no rhythmic weakness and great rhythms all the time.

For me, Either I for aim this (probably never get there, but get better), or I hang my guitar up.

Nah, I think everybody's been pretty constructive. Really constructive, actually.

Ginod can obviously play, there's just a few hitches he needs to settle in to. I kinda wish I could assign people to play in a R&B group for a month. Like Call up Ginod and say "Report to 2523 S. Wabash St, 6pm for rehearsal. Sam Destiny and the Starlight Band. You're playing all of Marvin Gaye's "I want You."

It's really all about relaxing and grooving. I think the worst thing you can do sometimes to someone who's not swinging is make them count more. No. Play one note with the beat and make it groove. Flex your buttcheeks on the one. Then try two.

I'm being silly, but I'm not.

[christianm77]

My theory is you weren't entirely sober :-)

Look, you are clearly not advanced enough to understand my pocking the rhird concept man.

Big stupid fingers on an iPhone do not mix. And I have the big one as well!

[christianm77]

Nah, I think everybody's been pretty constructive. Really constructive, actually.

Ginod can obviously play, there's just a few hitches he needs to settle in to. I kinda wish I could assign people to play in a R&B group for a month. Like Call up Ginod and say "Report to 2523 S. Wabash St, 6pm for rehearsal. Sam Destiny and the Starlight Band. You're playing all of Marvin Gaye's "I want You."

It's really all about relaxing and grooving. I think the worst thing you can do sometimes to someone who's not swinging is make them count more.

Yes... It's amazing how much one can relax and still not be relaxed enough.

Counting is for learning. There are rhythms relevant to swing that can be counted just as there are for any music you can think of. But you have to get beyond the counting side of it an internalise everything so it becomes effortless.

If you are still counting on the bandstand the best that can happen is you don't fuck it up. But it won't swing ever.

It's exactly the same process as for scales, harmony, changes etc. Yet rhythm has this mystique.

No. Play one note with the beat and make it groove. Flex your buttcheeks on the one. Then try two.

Dangerous advice given the state of my digestion.

Also how do you personally make something groove, and how do you evaluate whether or not you have been successful?

[christianm77]

My other theory is this...

I think your swung 8ths are much better on BFA than the first one. I think that's because you knew what you were going to play. Also louder because the confidence is there. It might have been just a little too fast for you but the same applies.

I think, on the first vid, that you were thinking about what notes/fingerings you were going to use and you were distracted from the rhythm.

You could test this out if you want. Get a very simple medium-pace swing track and play something easy over it, something you don't have to worry about. My guess is you'll swing along perfectly well over it.

Just an idea. If you find that you can actually swing perfectly well then you'll know it's not your rhythm, it's the complexity of the music.

And if not, then I'm wrong :-)

Good shout.

Blues for Alice is quite hard - here's my suggestion - Thing's Ain't What They Used to Be.

[mr. beaumont]

Dangerous advice given the state of my digestion.

Also how do you personally make something groove, and how do you evaluate whether or not you have been successful?

That's why you gotta practice the flex--good for when the lunch burrito comes knocking during a traffic jam.

As for "how do you know you groove?," you record. One of three things will happen:

1. You'll groove, and you'll hear it. Then you go back and groove more.

2. You won't groove, and you'll hear it. Then you try to figure out what's holding you up. Maybe spend sometime tapping things out on your knees.

3. You'll think you groove but you don't. In that case, there's always fly fishing.

Generally, I'd hope you can feel it or not while you're playing. Not grooving feels "uncomfortable" to me. Grooving feels "right."

I know right away when I'm not grooving. I get the "wait, there was an essay due?" high school feeling all over again.

[matt.guitarteacher]

3. You'll think you groove but you don't. In that case, there's always fly fishing.

:-)