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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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10-31-2016 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I agree with you about the importance of being able to repeat an exercise. I think the "time under tension," to borrow a weightlifting term, is as much a variable in a passage's difficulty as the speed. So for some things I might play them as loops and others (at very fast tempos) I might do like...1 beat at a time, then 2 beats, then 3, working my way up to playing longer.
I think someone posted a vid of this recently, the concept being that instead of playing stuff and trying to gradually work up tempos, start at a fast tempo and gradually work up the length. I've spent a lot of time with both approaches and, deeper into my playing experience have had more success with the latter approach.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
One thing should be taken into account with people like PG and TG; they're playing all these things on solid body guitars with loose tension, low action and light strings. The thinness of the guitar's body also makes things easier on the right arm's position. In addition to that, they always use distortion. They can probably play it clean, but it might sound less impressive, and maybe a bit sloppier. I'd like to hear them shred with 012s on an acoustic archtop.
I find i can shred much easier on my P-44 and Mex. Strat, especially when I use distortion, but I only practice acoustically on an archtop. If you have to lower the action on an acoustic and make it sound like rubber bands, like DiMeola, Coryell and others, it's BS, IMHO.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I use the same floating right hand technique that Troy is demonstrating here.
Personally I don't see action/string gauge as a strong determinant of difficulty with picking. I think it's just what you are used to. The mechanics are the same.
Personally I find it much harder to play fast with drive and light strings, because I'm not used to muting, and I am not used to the gentleness with which you hit the strings. But the basic mechanical elements of the technique (dwps in this case) are the same.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Pick slanting relies on a side to side motion of the wrist. You need to go with two way pick slanting so that the pick clears the strings. I just tried again. I played it down up. I started with upwards pick slanting which allows the pick to clear the second string as well after which I go to downwards pick slanting which allows the up stroke to clear the first string. I could get it up to 140'ish. Pretty sure I'd be able to get it up to speed with some practice. So basically side to side movement with some rotating in order to change pick slant.
Cross picking relies on up down movement (like when you knock on a door). I don't remember which segment that features this, maybe the Carl Miner one. But downstroke is simply the up movement of the wrist. Upstrokes are the down movement with some rotational movement as well.
Finally there is the ugly option! TG calls it the Swipe (first discovered in Angelo Batios playing, but also seen in Al Di Meolas). If you stick to downwards pick slanting then you can simply use your fretting finger to mute the second string and just let your pick go true both string on the down stroke.Last edited by Lobomov; 10-31-2016 at 03:05 PM.
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It seems my idea of what cross picking is does not corelate with current trends.
I'd really to see two notes on adjacent strings being cross picked in regard to tis definition:
Crosspicking*is a technique for playing the mandolin or guitar using a*plectrum*or flatpick in a rolling,*syncopated*style across three strings. This style is probably best known as one element of the*flatpicking*style in*bluegrass music, and it closely resembles abanjo*roll, the main difference being that the banjo roll is fingerpicked rather than flatpicked.
A typical element of the technique is the use of three pitches played repeatedly within a four-pulse rhythm.*
I can come to certain speeds in certain ways, but I have no idea if the way I do it is half good in a sense of how strong and clean I pick. I'd like to compare my effort against those of true masters inhabitating this forum.
BTW, for the sake of clarity, Mr. Beaumont's hybrid picking @ 120 bpm is not of my interest.
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 10-31-2016 at 07:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
re 2WPS - just not sure if changes in slant at that tempo is possible. Every third note, sure, but every note? I will experiment.
A weakness for me is the changing slants...I can do DWPS stuff well and UWPS stuff pretty well, and have started getting the hang of switching slants in the middle of a line, but it's still awkward. For what it's worth to the critics, I've spent a lot of time practicing picking with the more traditional methods, so this is just something new I've been exploring.
Regarding the swiping, it isn't always so ugly, for sure. benson and wes swipe a lot, sometimes it's even a nicer sound depending on what you're goin for. the original figure I posted in this thread, I can do a 'swipe' version ok if it's up-down (outside) but harder going inside, and either way takes some coordination and practice with the left hand. I'll continue with that as well.
Swiping is pretty valuable, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it and some strategic use of it might be a big part of my solution to this passage.
For what it's worth, here's some swiping at this clip (WARNING: NOT JAZZ) https://www.instagram.com/p/BLcmluWA...-by=jakeestner
After I'm up around the 12th fret for a few measures I wound up doing a pretty fast little crescendo pattern. You can probably hear the muted strings but in this context I don't really mind.
For what it's worth #2, the quick but quiet run at the very end was all DWPS/even-number-of-notes-per string stuff
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I know plenty of archtop players who use alternate picking and have great techniques.
Re: shredding it's a self selecting group because most shredders will probably play solid body guitars. Archtops are expensive and quite niche. If you like archtops, the chances are that you like jazz, and 'shredding' seems pretty banal and pointless.
But you might be right, it's an interesting thought.
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I've definitely heard some serious alternate pickers on archtop. I mean, Pat Martino may not be the best example because 1. his guitar is a bit smaller and 2. his tempos, while fast, are not "Gilbertian" or "Angleo-Batiaish"
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by sgcim
Speed itself is one of these terribly boring subjects that I think are a particular obsession of guitar players. Technique should be transparent, a means to an end - the ability to execute a musical phrase fluently at whatever tempo is required, with the fullest possible range of expression.
Any more than that and the whole thing turns into the guitar olympics.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
I’m confident he has not studied parker/wes etc. in depth. However, I think plenty of people can devote a lot of time both to the study of the language as well as the mechanics of ‘fast’ and fluid technique.
I applaud his efforts at composing some jazz lines (I hope that doesn’t sound condescending!) and exploring different styles to apply his technique.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Edit: Just tried the exercise again. I rotate while picking. So at the point of hitting the string I have no pick slant but the rotational movement makes the pick clear. I also found that the up down movement of might feel ever so slightly more natural. But either way it is doable .. I can get up to speed, but is off course sounds like sh** due to lack of consistency (Still doable imo)
Movements are very small off course either way
Originally Posted by sgcimLast edited by Lobomov; 11-01-2016 at 03:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
1:54
That's the same technique as TG. Not alternate though.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
One kid in the guitar class I taught in HS used to bring in Michaelangelo tabs, and wanted to learn how to play them, even though he was a complete beginner.
He was a brilliant student in all his subjects, and I think he did the MB thing well, although i really don't remember.
Anyway, I think I'll go out and get a few tatoos on my arm like MB, buy a PRS shred machine, and forget about this jazz stuff. You can probably get a lot of sexy chicks with tatoos and nose rings if you can shred that stuff.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Someone said that Pat practiced 36 hours straight one time.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I can't take all 12 episodes of it. I bailed at 3 and skipped ahead to Michaelangelo, whose music I kind of like a little.
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I just skipped season 1 I think, I didn't quite get all the back story. But then when he gets into playing stuff, man, super valuable. I do agree that he could truncate things, however, from a business perspective, I think he is trying to get people hooked/interested and not just be a dry presentation of theories or observations.
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by the way I do pay for a masters in mechanics subscription and it is excellent. for the batio stuff specifically he has a lot of very specific 'how to,' not just fancy animation.
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Hey Jake... yea I can pick at that tempo. But at that tempo I have trouble not accenting, just as when I swap the pick direction, again I naturally create accent pattern. I can't remember actually playing something like that, maybe a accented trill.
On your 2nd example... I generally never finger like that unless notated with some type of ornament or articulation, grace or slur etc...
I think it cool your getting your technique together... will definitely help your creativity and feel etc...
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Originally Posted by Reg
Hey thanks Reg, very cool.
The origin of these questions was trying to get some Pat Martino lines up to tempo, where he picks quite a lot of it.
Question for you - if the original figure was just two open strings would it be just as easy for you, to be picking truly one string at a time?
And again I know this isn’t the most important, life changing stuff, and there even are other technique issues that are more “important,” this is just a specific curiosity related to stuff that goes on in my own technique (And teaching.)
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OK, I gave this a try today. I can play it at tempo, albeit not very well, but I have trouble with the top note being heavily accented. Not sure if this is the same issue Reg was having.
Now, an observation - to do this with DWPS means that the top note is heavily accented to the point of the lower note being a bit of a ghost.
If I straighten my pick up a bit I get more of an even sound.
In either case I am getting a lot of string noise which suggest I am in fact swiping without the muting bit.
Enharmonics
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