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  1. #1

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    The more I work on pick technique the more I figure out ways to make certain passages ‘happen’ at faster tempos. While for years I used to just alternate pick everything and try to move things up a few bpm at a time (VERY limited results that way!) recently I’ve been finding ways to utilize strengths that make certain passages and movements a lot faster. All of Troy Grady’s stuff has really helped in making a lot of what used to be impossible possible.


    THIS passage, below, still stumps me though. Can anybody do this at this tempo? Without re-fingering it or hybrid picking or slurring, etc. Even do it half as long?









    For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’). I know Troy Grady has done stuff on cross picking, the Steve Morse segment, the bluegrass stuff...not sure I ‘get’ how that technique varies from my basic approach to alternate picking.


    I can ‘swipe’ (Grady’s term for essentially playing adjacent strings, muted) to get a really sloppy version of it, maybe over time that will get cleaner.


    It seems like...if you have ‘one note per string’ but it’s all in one direction then it is easy to ‘sweep’. If you have more notes on each string it’s easier to do economy/alternate and ‘pick slanting’ switches (or not.) But this figure...any insights? For those of you that are at a high level with benson picking, is this passage doable?


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  3. #2

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    Afaik that is "inside picking" which is by definition the most inefficient kind of passage.


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  4. #3
    Thanks blille. For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’).

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Thanks blille. For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’).
    I hear you. I've learned sweep picking and the example you put is literally the only kind of pattern that you can't optimize so "sweeping down" two notes and going back up is not really a saving. I would still do inside picking.

    It's a great exercise but in real life I would avoid playing that by transposing or adding notes

  6. #5

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    I got up to 138 bpm after a short warm-up.

    I set the metronome on 138 and played quarter notes in sync with the metronome using upstrokes on the third string. Then I quickly used inside picking for that one measure. Outside picking was a failure, and either way it was not clean but some amplification could hide me.

    As for 155bpm, you could offer me a billion dollars and there is no way I could do it right now - maybe ever.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 10-29-2016 at 10:31 PM.

  7. #6
    hah, thanks guys. also ran, if you can get 138 I can't imagine the 12% increase is really that impossible, no?

  8. #7

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    Play the D and the F both on the 3rd string and this becomes easy. Use legato playing and it becomes even easier again. I don't think one should waste time with something purely because it is difficult, when there is an easier way to do it. Why bang your head against the wall when there was an easier solution staring you in the face? I understand the idea of practicing every possible combination so that you can be prepared for anything. But I also understand it's not worth spending a 1000 hours of practice just to gain .001 % more efficiency for one very specific picking situation. The time is better spent on other things...

  9. #8
    thanks guitarzen - I'm interested in the passage as is.

  10. #9

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    How about experimenting with pick position? It's key for me to develop speed.

    Experiment with it pointing slightly forward towards the neck and slanted like this:

  11. #10

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    Key should be getting the pick clear of the stings, so a change in pickslant after each note? (I tried, but am no way near speeed on this one)

    Whether you go inside or outside picking should make no difference.


  12. #11

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    Ditch Troy Grady, it's worthless piece of nonsense, IMO.

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  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Ditch Troy Grady, it's worthless piece of nonsense, IMO.

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    I've found his material to make objective improvements in my pick technique.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    Key should be getting the pick clear of the stings, so a change in pickslant after each note? (I tried, but am no way near speeed on this one)

    Whether you go inside or outside picking should make no difference.

    I think that for these passages TG would advocate 'cross picking' but I don't really get how to do it!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    I've found his material to make objective improvements in my pick technique.
    I wonder, what exactly have you learned from him, what you do now that you were not diung before and was not already explained elewhere?

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  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    I think that for these passages TG would advocate 'cross picking' but I don't really get how to do it!
    If you think cross picking is ok for the exercise, why slurring and hybrid are not? Maybe I've missinterpreted OP?




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  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    I wonder, what exactly have you learned from him, what you do now that you were not diung before and was not already explained elewhere?

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    There are many, many, many passages that I am now able to play much faster. Essentially, when I run into a sequence that is difficult for me to pick, I now have a lot of tools to 'solve' the problem of getting it at the tempo that I want.

    The way I think of it now is to isolate to find the one note that is giving me trouble. Because the odds are usually that there is one specific note in the passage where I either can't get it or I tense up. It might be the second note of the passage or it might be something in the middle, or end, but it's there.

    So when trying to problem-solve that note, I may do one or more of the following:

    -change the string the note is on
    -change which pick stroke I am using to play either the 'problem' note, or the note that precedes it
    -change the pick 'slant' for either the problem note or the preceding note
    -utilize 'swiping'

    seems simple but the slanting stuff has been huge for me, especially because my 'downward pick slanting' is very strong, so I have figured out ways to utilize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    If you think cross picking is ok for the exercise, why slurring and hybrid are not? Maybe I've missinterpreted OP?
    because I am curious about ways to still hit each note with the pick, and cross picking is still attacking each note with the pick. Hybrid and slurring mean some notes are not attacked with the pick.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    There are many, many, many passages that I am now able to play much faster. Essentially, when I run into a sequence that is difficult for me to pick, I now have a lot of tools to 'solve' the problem of getting it at the tempo that I want.

    The way I think of it now is to isolate to find the one note that is giving me trouble. Because the odds are usually that there is one specific note in the passage where I either can't get it or I tense up. It might be the second note of the passage or it might be something in the middle, or end, but it's there.

    So when trying to problem-solve that note, I may do one or more of the following:

    -change the string the note is on
    -change which pick stroke I am using to play either the 'problem' note, or the note that precedes it
    -change the pick 'slant' for either the problem note or the preceding note
    -utilize 'swiping'

    seems simple but the slanting stuff has been huge for me, especially because my 'downward pick slanting' is very strong, so I have figured out ways to utilize it.



    because I am curious about ways to still hit each note with the pick, and cross picking is still attacking each note with the pick. Hybrid and slurring mean some notes are not attacked with the pick.
    "Find the exact prroblem and deal with it, don't waste time on fixing what you do good", must be the most common place piece of advice in the history of the world, we hardly needed TG to learn that one.

    Refingering and adapting licks to fit your technique is another obvious one, nothing TG about it.

    Basicaly it leaves us with angling the pick, which we already were doing, because by the nature of the thing it can not be done differently, you for example already were "... very strong ..." in it, only now we have to reffer to it as to that uggly buzzword? You really needed TG to tell you that on up strokes the pick is moving from the strings if you hold it like that and on down strokes if yu hold it the other way?

    Anyway, I'm glad it worked for you, but then again, why do you ask here about picking, why don't you take a look into TG's teachings ?
    Of course, all above is rethorical for the sake of discussion, I'm not against you
    personally, or against such questions from people who bought into TG.

    It's only I think he's selling thin air that is surrounding snake oil.

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  19. #18

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    People do like to break things down the nth degree here don't they?

  20. #19

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    BTW, if refingering and moving position of notes played is THE way, then ...

    I think the point of that exercise is to practice strict inside alternate picking.

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  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    People do like to break things down the nth degree here don't they?
    Christian, similar to my other post, I enjoy the process of analysis and am curious about the mechanics of various things relating to the guitar. I'm not claiming the answer to my curiosity will land me a gig with Mark Turner.

    Vladan, the post isn't about whether Troy Grady is great or not, rather about a particular picking motion/string orientation and if anybody has figured out a way to do it. It seems you have some objection to him that isn't really on topic here.

  22. #21

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    In my previous post I addressed the topic. There's nothing you can do with this pattern, unless you move the notes over different strings , in which case the whole point of exercisr is lost. IMO.

    If the only rule is to pick all the notes, then you could play it on one string with a stetch of either index, or pinky.

    Sort of half way cross picking without crossing would be to move
    the pattern into index on 11th position
    and stringset 4 and 5, for the reason of closer spaced frets, and play it as

    4/11, 5/12, 5/16, 5/12, 4/11 ...

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  23. #22

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    About 120 going in cold before it fell apart.

    Then I remembered I'm a hybrid picker. Got my middle finger involved, was over 155 with no warm up.

    So my answer: I'd cheat.
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  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    hah, thanks guys. also ran, if you can get 138 I can't imagine the 12% increase is really that impossible, no?
    You would think so, but after years of chasing speed with the limited time that I have, I seem to have plateaued out. Still, I like challenges that I can later use to play songs that were once beyond my technical ability.

    This might make for a nice exercise.

    That fastest that I can go up and down on a single string, while still accenting the first note, is around 190 bpm although I can go to 208 without accenting and playing all four sixteenth notes with even volume.

    I will get you know if I ever get there...

  25. #24

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    I can play it for a long time at about 150 as written, but I'd have to pick it up-down instead of down-up.
    I could keep it up for 20 measures or so, before starting to drop beats
    I've always found it important to be able to repeat exercises like that over and over, rather than just play it for one measure, because you can incorporate it easier into your technique, and be able to do it with little effort.

    But as far as playing it down-up, I can't come anywhere near that, although I have been working on that type of thing lately. I don't do any pick slanting that I'm aware of, but maybe I should start consciously working on it.

    Back when high school students were still interested in playing musical instruments, I used to get kids in my band class that could shred way faster than I could. One Guyanese kid used to sneak into the band room, and stay there the whole day, shedding Paul Gilbert exercises. Then he'd go home and practice another ten hours!
    He came back to visit me after he finished school, and he was already playing professional gigs after playing guitar for only three or four years.
    I xeroxed a bunch of Paul Gilbert things that he bought, and still practice them today. We used to sit there and watch Paul Gilbert and Steve Vai videos in my office every day.

    When he brought in an instructional video that had Vai playing while he had a fan trained on his hair, I almost puked.
    Another Sri Lankan kid could also play me under the table, but when he came back to visit me after he graduated and
    was going to college for engineering, he couldn't play as well, because he had to study now!

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    About 120 going in cold before it fell apart.

    Then I remembered I'm a hybrid picker. Got my middle finger involved, was over 155 with no warm up.

    So my answer: I'd cheat.
    Thanks Jeff.

    Question: if you were trying to play the passage below at a very fast tempo, without slurring the second note, would you intuitively pick the G string note with a right hand finger?




    Last edited by JakeAcci; 10-31-2016 at 09:19 AM.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    You would think so, but after years of chasing speed with the limited time that I have, I seem to have plateaued out. Still, I like challenges that I can later use to play songs that were once beyond my technical ability.

    This might make for a nice exercise.

    That fastest that I can go up and down on a single string, while still accenting the first note, is around 190 bpm although I can go to 208 without accenting and playing all four sixteenth notes with even volume.

    I will get you know if I ever get there...
    Interesting, thanks. You know, I bet it would be possible for you - I think in decades to come there will be more advancements in our understanding of picking mechanics, and there's some answer to this type of figure. I mean, there are probably a lot of bluegrass guys that can do it.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I can play it for a long time at about 150 as written, but I'd have to pick it up-down instead of down-up.
    I could keep it up for 20 measures or so, before starting to drop beats
    I've always found it important to be able to repeat exercises like that over and over, rather than just play it for one measure, because you can incorporate it easier into your technique, and be able to do it with little effort.

    But as far as playing it down-up, I can't come anywhere near that, although I have been working on that type of thing lately. I don't do any pick slanting that I'm aware of, but maybe I should start consciously working on it.
    Thanks sgcim. Why do you think the outside version is so much easier for you than inside? Because of all the Gilbert patterns you used to practice?

    I agree with you about the importance of being able to repeat an exercise. I think the "time under tension," to borrow a weightlifting term, is as much a variable in a passage's difficulty as the speed. So for some things I might play them as loops and others (at very fast tempos) I might do like...1 beat at a time, then 2 beats, then 3, working my way up to playing longer.

    I think someone posted a vid of this recently, the concept being that instead of playing stuff and trying to gradually work up tempos, start at a fast tempo and gradually work up the length. I've spent a lot of time with both approaches and, deeper into my playing experience have had more success with the latter approach.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Thanks Jeff.

    Question: if you were trying to play the passage below without slurring the second note, would you intuitively pick the G string note with a right hand finger?




    Probably. I'LL grab a guitar later and let you know what happens...but my guess is probably.
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  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Thanks sgcim. Why do you think the outside version is so much easier for you than inside? Because of all the Gilbert patterns you used to practice?

    I agree with you about the importance of being able to repeat an exercise. I think the "time under tension," to borrow a weightlifting term, is as much a variable in a passage's difficulty as the speed. So for some things I might play them as loops and others (at very fast tempos) I might do like...1 beat at a time, then 2 beats, then 3, working my way up to playing longer.

    I think someone posted a vid of this recently, the concept being that instead of playing stuff and trying to gradually work up tempos, start at a fast tempo and gradually work up the length. I've spent a lot of time with both approaches and, deeper into my playing experience have had more success with the latter approach.
    It might have to do with the PG exercises, but I just find it very hard to pick that exercise using down-up. It feels like it's going against gravity. I'm going to investigate that pick slanting thing TG spoke about.
    One thing should be taken into account with people like PG and TG; they're playing all these things on solid body guitars with loose tension, low action and light strings. The thinness of the guitar's body also makes things easier on the right arm's position. In addition to that, they always use distortion. They can probably play it clean, but it might sound less impressive, and maybe a bit sloppier. I'd like to hear them shred with 012s on an acoustic archtop.
    I find i can shred much easier on my P-44 and Mex. Strat, especially when I use distortion, but I only practice acoustically on an archtop. If you have to lower the action on an acoustic and make it sound like rubber bands, like DiMeola, Coryell and others, it's BS, IMHO.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    It might have to do with the PG exercises, but I just find it very hard to pick that exercise using down-up. It feels like it's going against gravity. I'm going to investigate that pick slanting thing TG spoke about.
    One thing should be taken into account with people like PG and TG; they're playing all these things on solid body guitars with loose tension, low action and light strings. The thinness of the guitar's body also makes things easier on the right arm's position. In addition to that, they always use distortion. They can probably play it clean, but it might sound less impressive, and maybe a bit sloppier. I'd like to hear them shred with 012s on an acoustic archtop.
    I find i can shred much easier on my P-44 and Mex. Strat, especially when I use distortion, but I only practice acoustically on an archtop. If you have to lower the action on an acoustic and make it sound like rubber bands, like DiMeola, Coryell and others, it's BS, IMHO.


    I use the same floating right hand technique that Troy is demonstrating here.

    Personally I don't see action/string gauge as a strong determinant of difficulty with picking. I think it's just what you are used to. The mechanics are the same.

    Personally I find it much harder to play fast with drive and light strings, because I'm not used to muting, and I am not used to the gentleness with which you hit the strings. But the basic mechanical elements of the technique (dwps in this case) are the same.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    I think that for these passages TG would advocate 'cross picking' but I don't really get how to do it!
    Not sure that statement is true. Cross picking is one way to go off course, but two way pick slanting is also a valid option.

    Pick slanting relies on a side to side motion of the wrist. You need to go with two way pick slanting so that the pick clears the strings. I just tried again. I played it down up. I started with upwards pick slanting which allows the pick to clear the second string as well after which I go to downwards pick slanting which allows the up stroke to clear the first string. I could get it up to 140'ish. Pretty sure I'd be able to get it up to speed with some practice. So basically side to side movement with some rotating in order to change pick slant.

    Cross picking relies on up down movement (like when you knock on a door). I don't remember which segment that features this, maybe the Carl Miner one. But downstroke is simply the up movement of the wrist. Upstrokes are the down movement with some rotational movement as well.


    Finally there is the ugly option! TG calls it the Swipe (first discovered in Angelo Batios playing, but also seen in Al Di Meolas). If you stick to downwards pick slanting then you can simply use your fretting finger to mute the second string and just let your pick go true both string on the down stroke.
    Last edited by Lobomov; 10-31-2016 at 03:05 PM.

  33. #32

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    It seems my idea of what cross picking is does not corelate with current trends.
    I'd really to see two notes on adjacent strings being cross picked in regard to tis definition:

    Crosspicking*is a technique for playing the mandolin or guitar using a*plectrum*or flatpick in a rolling,*syncopated*style across three strings. This style is probably best known as one element of the*flatpicking*style in*bluegrass music, and it closely resembles abanjo*roll, the main difference being that the banjo roll is fingerpicked rather than flatpicked.

    A typical element of the technique is the use of three pitches played repeatedly within a four-pulse rhythm.*
    Regardless of cross picking and regarding the OP, would the posters who have found their way around it be so kind to post some video examples?
    I can come to certain speeds in certain ways, but I have no idea if the way I do it is half good in a sense of how strong and clean I pick. I'd like to compare my effort against those of true masters inhabitating this forum.

    BTW, for the sake of clarity, Mr. Beaumont's hybrid picking @ 120 bpm is not of my interest.

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  34. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    Not sure that statement is true. Cross picking is one way to go off course, but two way pick slanting is also a valid option.

    Pick slanting relies on a side to side motion of the wrist. You need to go with two way pick slanting so that the pick clears the strings. I just tried again. I played it down up. I started with upwards pick slanting which allows the pick to clear the second string as well after which I go to downwards pick slanting which allows the up stroke to clear the first string. I could get it up to 140'ish. Pretty sure I'd be able to get it up to speed with some practice. So basically side to side movement with some rotating in order to change pick slant.

    Cross picking relies on up down movement (like when you knock on a door). I don't remember which segment that features this, maybe the Carl Miner one. But downstroke is simply the up movement of the wrist. Upstrokes are the down movement with some rotational movement as well.


    Finally there is the ugly option! TG calls it the Swipe (first discovered in Angelo Batios playing, but also seen in Al Di Meolas). If you stick to downwards pick slanting then you can simply use your fretting finger to mute the second string and just let your pick go true both string on the down stroke.
    Thanks Lobomov
    re 2WPS - just not sure if changes in slant at that tempo is possible. Every third note, sure, but every note? I will experiment.

    A weakness for me is the changing slants...I can do DWPS stuff well and UWPS stuff pretty well, and have started getting the hang of switching slants in the middle of a line, but it's still awkward. For what it's worth to the critics, I've spent a lot of time practicing picking with the more traditional methods, so this is just something new I've been exploring.

    Regarding the swiping, it isn't always so ugly, for sure. benson and wes swipe a lot, sometimes it's even a nicer sound depending on what you're goin for. the original figure I posted in this thread, I can do a 'swipe' version ok if it's up-down (outside) but harder going inside, and either way takes some coordination and practice with the left hand. I'll continue with that as well.

    Swiping is pretty valuable, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it and some strategic use of it might be a big part of my solution to this passage.

    For what it's worth, here's some swiping at this clip (WARNING: NOT JAZZ) https://www.instagram.com/p/BLcmluWA...-by=jakeestner

    After I'm up around the 12th fret for a few measures I wound up doing a pretty fast little crescendo pattern. You can probably hear the muted strings but in this context I don't really mind.

    For what it's worth #2, the quick but quiet run at the very end was all DWPS/even-number-of-notes-per string stuff

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I should have mentioned that it makes it easier for the left hand, but I think that the thinness of the solid body does make the mechanics of picking easier in regard to the ease of arm position.
    Put another way: When was the last time you heard an archtop player shredding without the use of economic picking?
    You may be right, but what is your definition of shredding exactly?

    I know plenty of archtop players who use alternate picking and have great techniques.

    Re: shredding it's a self selecting group because most shredders will probably play solid body guitars. Archtops are expensive and quite niche. If you like archtops, the chances are that you like jazz, and 'shredding' seems pretty banal and pointless.

    But you might be right, it's an interesting thought.

  36. #35
    I've definitely heard some serious alternate pickers on archtop. I mean, Pat Martino may not be the best example because 1. his guitar is a bit smaller and 2. his tempos, while fast, are not "Gilbertian" or "Angleo-Batiaish"

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post


    I use the same floating right hand technique that Troy is demonstrating here.

    Personally I don't see action/string gauge as a strong determinant of difficulty with picking. I think it's just what you are used to. The mechanics are the same.

    Personally I find it much harder to play fast with drive and light strings, because I'm not used to muting, and I am not used to the gentleness with which you hit the strings. But the basic mechanical elements of the technique (dwps in this case) are the same.
    He's fast, but his lines make no sense, IMHO. Reminds me of Linc Chamberland, another speed demon whose lines made no sense to me. It brings up the question of how technique can affect musicality.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    He's fast, but his lines make no sense, IMHO. Reminds me of Linc Chamberland, another speed demon whose lines made no sense to me. It brings up the question of how technique can affect musicality.
    I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at TBH. TG can play fast on acoustic guitar, which is the thing that was questioned. I never said he was a fluent jazz improvisor and neither I'm sure does he.

    Speed itself is one of these terribly boring subjects that I think are a particular obsession of guitar players. Technique should be transparent, a means to an end - the ability to execute a musical phrase fluently at whatever tempo is required, with the fullest possible range of expression.

    Any more than that and the whole thing turns into the guitar olympics.

  39. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    He's fast, but his lines make no sense, IMHO. Reminds me of Linc Chamberland, another speed demon whose lines made no sense to me. It brings up the question of how technique can affect musicality.
    it should be understood: TG will probably be the first one to tell you he is a rock/metal player and not a jazz improviser. I know he is interested in guitar technique and I’d bet composed (not improvised) this piece to experiment with his DWPS technique in a different style.


    I’m confident he has not studied parker/wes etc. in depth. However, I think plenty of people can devote a lot of time both to the study of the language as well as the mechanics of ‘fast’ and fluid technique.


    I applaud his efforts at composing some jazz lines (I hope that doesn’t sound condescending!) and exploring different styles to apply his technique.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Thanks Lobomov
    re 2WPS - just not sure if changes in slant at that tempo is possible. Every third note, sure, but every note? I will experiment.
    As long as you don't go from upward pickslant to full Yngwie downward slant, then it should be doable. You only need enough slant to clear the strings. If you look at Angelo Batio (I think thats the vid, not 100% sure), then he goes from a slight but visible upwards slant to a downwards slant that is almost vertical.

    Edit: Just tried the exercise again. I rotate while picking. So at the point of hitting the string I have no pick slant but the rotational movement makes the pick clear. I also found that the up down movement of might feel ever so slightly more natural. But either way it is doable .. I can get up to speed, but is off course sounds like sh** due to lack of consistency (Still doable imo)

    Movements are very small off course either way



    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    He's fast, but his lines make no sense, IMHO. Reminds me of Linc Chamberland, another speed demon whose lines made no sense to me. It brings up the question of how technique can affect musicality.
    I pretty sure that the point of that vid isn't to impress with TG's musicallity, but to show that Yngwie picking works on an acoustic as well.
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-01-2016 at 03:31 PM.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    I pretty sure that the point of that vid isn't to impress with TG's musicallity, but to show that Yngwie picking works on an acoustic as well.
    I mean to be honest what about this fella?



    1:54

    That's the same technique as TG. Not alternate though.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    As long as you don't go from upward pickslant to full Yngwie downward slant, then it should be doable. You only need enough slant to clear the strings. If you look at Angelo Batio (I think thats the vid, not 100% sure), then he goes from a slight but visible upwards slant to a downwards slant that is almost vertical.

    Edit: Just tried the exercise again. I rotate while picking. So at the point of hitting the string I have no pick slant but the rotational movement makes the pick clear. I also found that the up down movement of might feel ever so slightly more natural. But either way it is doable .. I can get up to speed, but is off course sounds like sh** due to lack of consistency (Still doable imo)

    Movements are very small off course either way





    I pretty sure that the point of that vid isn't to impress with TG's musicallity, but to show that Yngwie picking works on an acoustic as well.
    I just watched the Michaelangelo one with TG, and it explained the pick slanting concept so well, that even a dunce such as I could understand it, although I nodded off several times for some reason.
    One kid in the guitar class I taught in HS used to bring in Michaelangelo tabs, and wanted to learn how to play them, even though he was a complete beginner.
    He was a brilliant student in all his subjects, and I think he did the MB thing well, although i really don't remember.

    Anyway, I think I'll go out and get a few tatoos on my arm like MB, buy a PRS shred machine, and forget about this jazz stuff. You can probably get a lot of sexy chicks with tatoos and nose rings if you can shred that stuff.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    I've definitely heard some serious alternate pickers on archtop. I mean, Pat Martino may not be the best example because 1. his guitar is a bit smaller and 2. his tempos, while fast, are not "Gilbertian" or "Angleo-Batiaish"
    Yeah, Pat's a good example of someone who's worked out alt. picking to the same level as PG and MB, yet still plays GREAT jazz. My one complaint about PM is his lack of using space in his solos.
    Someone said that Pat practiced 36 hours straight one time.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Yeah, Pat's a good example of someone who's worked out alt. picking to the same level as PG and MB, yet still plays GREAT jazz. My one complaint about PM is his lack of using space in his solos.
    Someone said that Pat practiced 36 hours straight one time.
    PM has a weird kind of space - his playing kind of ebbs and flows. Even though it's continuous 8ths, there is shape within it.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    although I nodded off several times for some reason.
    I find TG's stuff very useful and it's opened my playing a lot, but goddammit ... Why does he have to drag every thing on for so long?

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    I find TG's stuff very useful and it's opened my playing a lot, but goddammit ... Why does he have to drag every thing on for so long?
    Yeah, he's gotta tell us about every second of his life in Farmingdale as a kid growing up listening to Metal. Damn Lawn Guylanders...
    I can't take all 12 episodes of it. I bailed at 3 and skipped ahead to Michaelangelo, whose music I kind of like a little.

  47. #46
    I just skipped season 1 I think, I didn't quite get all the back story. But then when he gets into playing stuff, man, super valuable. I do agree that he could truncate things, however, from a business perspective, I think he is trying to get people hooked/interested and not just be a dry presentation of theories or observations.

  48. #47
    by the way I do pay for a masters in mechanics subscription and it is excellent. for the batio stuff specifically he has a lot of very specific 'how to,' not just fancy animation.

  49. #48

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    Hey Jake... yea I can pick at that tempo. But at that tempo I have trouble not accenting, just as when I swap the pick direction, again I naturally create accent pattern. I can't remember actually playing something like that, maybe a accented trill.

    On your 2nd example... I generally never finger like that unless notated with some type of ornament or articulation, grace or slur etc...

    I think it cool your getting your technique together... will definitely help your creativity and feel etc...

  50. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey Jake... yea I can pick at that tempo. But at that tempo I have trouble not accenting, just as when I swap the pick direction, again I naturally create accent pattern. I can't remember actually playing something like that, maybe a accented trill.


    On your 2nd example... I generally never finger like that unless notated with some type of ornament or articulation, grace or slur etc...


    I think it cool your getting your technique together... will definitely help your creativity and feel etc...

    Hey thanks Reg, very cool.


    The origin of these questions was trying to get some Pat Martino lines up to tempo, where he picks quite a lot of it.


    Question for you - if the original figure was just two open strings would it be just as easy for you, to be picking truly one string at a time?


    And again I know this isn’t the most important, life changing stuff, and there even are other technique issues that are more “important,” this is just a specific curiosity related to stuff that goes on in my own technique (And teaching.)

  51. #50

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    OK, I gave this a try today. I can play it at tempo, albeit not very well, but I have trouble with the top note being heavily accented. Not sure if this is the same issue Reg was having.

    Now, an observation - to do this with DWPS means that the top note is heavily accented to the point of the lower note being a bit of a ghost.

    If I straighten my pick up a bit I get more of an even sound.

    In either case I am getting a lot of string noise which suggest I am in fact swiping without the muting bit.