Number of notes per string, stepwise scales vs position scales

[JakeAcci]

Here’s a weird thing I just stumbled upon, probably been done before. Let me preface this post by saying that I just think this kind of thing is interesting and I definitely wouldn't call the contents here "important" or necessarily ..."useful." I'm just always interested in ways to look at the fretboard.

So, a lot of you are probably familiar with the idea of 3-note-per-string scale fingerings. For most chord scales they move up the neck diagonally, slightly.

I know there’s a giant debate over position/CAGED fingerings vs 3NPS, not interested in getting into that here, but here’s a quirky thing: 3NPS have a consistent number of notes per string, yet do not cover one “position” on the neck, as they tend to ascend up the frets a bit especially on the last two strings. And the CAGED/position scales may cover one area more accurately, but can have the disadvantage of being a little confusing (for those new to them) in terms of when to change over to the next string (in other words, when to use three strings and when to use two strings.)

Again, not interested in the debate between those two fingering systems, plenty of threads on that here.

I simply think the following idea is kind of interesting: let’s say a scale fingering can have 2, 3, 4, or 5 notes per string, and whatever we pick has to be consistent throughout a fingering. But then rather than always ascending/descending in scale steps, we adhere to the number of strings but stay in the same position (roughly, a fret range) on the guitar.

With a 3NPS fingering, we’ll typically get a doubled note on the B/G strings, which can lead to some interesting possibilities with a line:

C lydian/G major 3NPS in position:


Compare that to the conventional 3NPS fingering that would go up to the 10th fret on the B string.

We get some interesting results. I made a little quiz using google sheets and a randomizer tool, hitting ‘refresh’ gives a different result each time (though it takes a second for it to load properly.)

Here are some of the results

A harmonic major, 4 notes per string, in position



Ok, what could be some uses? Interesting legato patterns? Unusual chord voicings? Useful scale knowledge challenge? You could definitely get some holdsworthian types of sequences going from within this ‘fingering’

4 notes per string, ascending stepwise, quite different:




G# harmonic minor, 5 notes per string, in position.


5 notes per string, ascending stepwise:



2 Notes per string in position is interesting because it actually takes notes out of the collection:

A few examples of 2NPS ‘position’ fingerings for Bb major:





Compare with 2NPS all ascending:



I don’t know, if anything it’s an interesting challenge to go through pitch collections that are less familiar and try to navigate them in these kooky ways.

-
Similar train of thought - if you’re on this forum you probably get that you can play the chromatic scale in any 5 fret range covering 2.4 octaves, so any scale, key, pitch collection is possible in any 5 fret range as long as it’s within 2.4 octaves. Wayne Krantz is the first person I’ve heard of intentionally limiting fingerings to be within 4 frets, which usually will actually mean the omission of a few notes in the fingering, giving some quirky results, like this fingering for C melodic minor:

C melodic minor in frets 4-7 (4 fret range)


Well, ok, so 5 frets gives us any note/collection we want within the chromatic scale, 4 frets is convenient because we have 4 fingers on the fretboard, but what does 6 frets give us? 6 frets gives us a lot of unisons, and also presents some interesting chord voicing possibilities:

C melodic minor in frets 8-13 (6 fret range)


7 frets would expand this further...3 frets is kind of quirky at times, too:

C lydian augmented in frets 8-10 (3 fret range)



I made a quiz for this as well

What are some other parameters that can be made to address different fingerings? I was thinking another could the restriction of certain stretches, for example two whole step intervals in a row, or three. Obviously the variables I’ve addressed could be combined. Interested to exhaust possibilities.

[srlank]

Nice. I've seen examples before of 3nps, producing a doubled note. It sounds like some sax players. But this is a real cool extension of that idea.

The other concept similar to this is the 212121 arpeggios that Tim Miller demonstrates....sometimes with a doubled note from 3nps scales. He mixes it with slurs and hybrid picking for some outstanding results.

[Drumbler]

A very interesting study.
I've found 3nps speed scale fingerings to be less useful in jazz. They are very useful in fusion and speed metal however.

[JakeAcci]

Nice. I've seen examples before of 3nps, producing a doubled note. It sounds like some sax players. But this is a real cool extension of that idea.

The other concept similar to this is the 212121 arpeggios that Tim Miller demonstrates....sometimes with a doubled note from 3nps scales. He mixes it with slurs and hybrid picking for some outstanding results.

Thanks! Yes, I am familiar and my train of thought here was definitely influenced by Mr. Miller's ideas, which I believe were influenced by Holdsworth's approach to the fretboard.

It's a neat 'world' where instead of getting bogged down and restricted by the guitar's geometry and patterns, you use the fretboard layout to your advantage and look for useful musical ideas.

[JakeAcci]

A very interesting study.
I've found 3nps speed scale fingerings to be less useful in jazz. They are very useful in fusion and speed metal however.

Thanks Drumbler, regarding the use of 3nps in jazz, there have been massive threads debating this topic.

What I am more interested in is, what happens when we look at the fretboard in a different way? Not just what fingering system does Joe Pass use vs what fingering system does John Petrucci use, but what are some results that happen when we look at the fretboard in a different way?

When we're trying to put a basic sensible solo together over Stella by Starlight this probably isn't that relevant, but maybe for those who feel like they're always playing the same licks, the same voicings, the same stock approaches to each type of harmony, the same articulations, I think there's some useful stuff here.

[Drumbler]

Thanks Drumbler, regarding the use of 3nps in jazz, there have been massive threads debating this topic, like this one.

What I am more interested in is, what happens when we look at the fretboard in a different way? Not just what fingering system does Joe Pass use vs what fingering system does John Petrucci use, but what are some results that happen when we look at the fretboard in a different way?

When we're trying to put a basic sensible solo together over Stella by Starlight this probably isn't that relevant, but maybe for those who feel like they're always playing the same licks, the same voicings, the same stock approaches to each type of harmony, the same articulations, I think there's some useful stuff here.

I understand, Jake.

I commend you on the detail in your study and will follow this thread to learn more.

[bako]

Perhaps different than your intention here, no unisons but maybe of interest.

2NPS groups of 4 notes then shift (**) last note is played with 4th finger up the 3rd octave.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------12--14--15--------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------10--12--**--13--15----------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------8--10--**--12--13----------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------5--7--**--9--11---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------4--5--**--7--9-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------2--3--**--5--7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--3--5-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


3NPS groups of 6 notes then shift (**) After 17 on the G string, continue with standard 3NPS to play out the scale range.
Those with 24 frets can maintain the original strategy for longer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------15--17--19--------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------15--17--19---------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------14--16--17-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------9--10--12--**--14--16--17-------------------------------------------------------
------------3--5--7--**--9--10--12---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--3--5--7--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incorporating shifts of these mini positions allow for a variety of combinations of slurs and attacks.

[JakeAcci]

Interesting Bako. Fred Hamilton's sight reading book has a lot of shifts like that that don't seem super intuitive but make sense when you play them.

Here's a lick related to the unison/larger fret span idea:

[bako]

Fingering on the cello has forced me to dig deeper which of course spills back over to guitar.
The tuning in 5ths requires more shifting to even play normal scale movements.
The general strategy is to move from one comfortable hand shape to the next.

Once you get into rhythm and phrasing, you have to also consider how the notes are grouped
in regard to slurs and attacks, played on the same string or the adjacent string.
Tone color also factors into choices made as to what string to play a note on or whether to bow
closer to the bridge or the fingerboard . Players addressing fixed repertoire work out fingerings
that will most easily express how they hear the music. An improviser aims to be ready for anything
their imagination may conjure (no simple task).

If you think in terms of hand shapes fashioned and grouped around common movements of rhythm and phrasing
then this type of fingering can begin to become more intuitive. That which we spend time with becomes normal,
new material not so much unless it piggybacks on previous knowledge and comfort.

Tetrachords for example can be organized by the following scale hand shapes:

4NPS
3 + 1
2 + 2
1 + 3

Three notes:

3 NPS
2 + 1
1 + 2

You organize positional hand shapes (fragments) of whatever number of notes relevant and the
shift to the next hand shape.

Interval and interval combination shapes are the basic building block of this game.

Not a move I practiced but just was thinking how to apply to a drop 2 voiced arpeggio

F7 - 1NPS in groups of 2

----------------------------------------------------------20------------------------
--------------------------------------------16--**--18----------------------------------
-----------------------------10--**---14------------------------------------------------
----------------7--**--10--------------------------------------------------------------
----3--**--6--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[christianm77]

Look. The answer to these OP points and every other debate that has raged on this topic is: YES. YES, YES, WHATEVER, I DON'T CARE and IT DOESN'T FLIPPING MATTER, for heaven's sake man, just go and shed scales. Or not. Shed arpeggios or chord shape soloing if you prefer. Play only lines and melodies by ear.

I don't care. Just shed something and get good at it. Just get off the internet and do some stuff IRL.

:-)

(Physician heal thyself. Well it's my day off.)

If you already know your scales one way, practice them another way.

You can't pre think everything. You have to put in the hard graft.

All of these CAGED/7 position/3 nps discussions are all just different routes to the same thing.

It doesn't matter. Just choose what works for you and practice the living bejeezus out of it. And stick at it. Practice slow, get the scales down.

One of the first things I ever got down was the seven positions of the major scale. It's stood in good stead, but I'm sure if I'd done caged or something else it would have been fine too.

I also learned 3 nps a little later.

These days I use diagonal positions and single string stuff. 4nps bebop scales. Intervallic scales in position.

All sorts of stuff. Running a single scale through a standard and so on and so forth.

But what will happen is your body will choose certain positions (ooh err missus) and favour those. That's fine. Playing the guitar is meant to be fun, and things that work physically for you will sound better.

I'm never going to stop working on scales and positions. It's one of the things that's really hard on guitar. 15 minutes a day and a bit of arp work and a few bop heads of keeps my chops in true. But there's still dark corners and 'here be dragons'. I could tune my guitar in fourths like A MASSIVE CONEHEAD, but I actually like the fact that the guitar has dark and nasty corners. But then I am a weirdo.

Also, don't wait for mastery in any of these areas. Just keep working at it while you play music. Music is the most important thing.

[JakeAcci]

Hey Christian, the concept here is just for personal interest, for anybody curious to look at the fretboard in a slightly different way.

[christianm77]

Hey Christian, the concept here is just for personal interest, for anybody curious to look at the fretboard in a slightly different way.

It's always good to look at the fretboard in different ways. I reread the OP and realised you were proposing something rather than arguing something (and reworded slightly), but believe you me, people WILL argue about this stuff.

For days and days and days and days.

As a result this stuff has become a bit of a red rag to the bull. Also I have had too much coffee today.

Scale warm up is a good thing to do. I think it gets the ears and fingers working. It's nice to start very slow as well. See how slow you can do it. I like 15-20 BPM in quarters. It's a bit zen.

To me position, simply means - play stuff in the same part of the neck without moving around too much. I'm not too doctrinaire about fingerings but I have suggestions I can make to students.

It's interesting the extent to which some students use incredibly inefficient fingerings. I don't think I ever did that thanks to my early classical training - but that was only ever in open position (first year/beginner.)

Truth is there are so many ways to look at scales on the guitar fretboard we may as well think of them as infinite. If you get too wedded to one way of doing things, it probably means you should ditch it and try something else for a bit.

Finally, quite a few of my favourite players basically don't do this stuff AT ALL. When I had a lesson with Dave Cliff he basically said he plays out of the chord shapes. People say he doesn't play positions, but then who cares?

[JakeAcci]

I just think this kind of stuff is fun and opens up new ideas, that’s all.


Things I am not saying:

• This is important and definitely useful for the aspiring jazz guitarist
• Study of the materials here will get a player closer to sounding like their favorite guitarists
• You need to think this way to be able to know scales on the fretboard
• There is one ideal fingering system or way of looking at the neck that is best
• 3nps is better than positions
• positions are better than 3nps
• one scale fingering is better than another
• scale practice should be X% of one’s practice time
• study of the ideas presented here will definitely lead to higher levels of artistic expression and ability to communicate with an audience

Things I am saying

• I had a free Saturday and felt like making some charts
• Holdsworth’s approach gives me food for though
• Unisons are kinda neat
• Different fingerings lead to different articulations (placement of slurs, specifically)
• Larger stretches and spans of frets leads to some less conventional articulations
• Looking at a larger span of frets for a scale opens up to some interesting chord voicings, if you’re into finding interesting chord voicings
• Specific omissions in a scale (like in Krantz’s 4 fret approach) lead to some interesting sounds.
• The geometry of the fretboard is kinda cool

I think that’s about it. Not everything has to be a step-on-the-path-to-greatness, does it?

[christianm77]

BTW I think Kurt was using 4 nps as a warmup for a while. It certainly feels unfamiliar if you are used to more conventional positions.

[christianm77]

I just think this kind of stuff is fun and opens up new ideas, that’s all.


Things I am not saying:

• This is important and definitely useful for the aspiring jazz guitarist
• Study of the materials here will get a player closer to sounding like their favorite guitarists
• You need to think this way to be able to know scales on the fretboard
• There is one ideal fingering system or way of looking at the neck that is best
• 3nps is better than positions
• positions are better than 3nps
• one scale fingering is better than another
• scale practice should be X% of one’s practice time
• study of the ideas presented here will definitely lead to higher levels of artistic expression and ability to communicate with an audience

Things I am saying

• I had a free Saturday and felt like making some charts
• Holdsworth’s approach gives me food for though
• Unisons are kinda neat
• Different fingerings lead to different articulations (placement of slurs, specifically)
• Larger stretches and spans of frets leads to some less conventional articulations
• Looking at a larger span of frets for a scale opens up to some interesting chord voicings, if you’re into finding interesting chord voicings
• Specific omissions in a scale (like in Krantz’s 4 fret approach) lead to some interesting sounds.
• The geometry of the fretboard is kinda cool

I think that’s about it. Not everything has to be a step-on-the-path-to-greatness, does it?

You are still a BAD MAN. I've decided now. BAD MAN with his BAD SCALES. I will search hard for a bone of contention and DISAGREE AT GREAT LENGTH.

[JakeAcci]

You are still a BAD MAN. I've decided now. BAD MAN with his BAD SCALES.

I mean, you may be right. Who am I to say? But I guess like, we're all like, entitled to our own ways of looking at things, and stuff.

[mr. beaumont]

Man, there's a lot of cool stuff to ponder here.

[christianm77]

I mean, you may be right. Who am I to say? But I guess like, we're all like, entitled to our own ways of looking at things, and stuff.

You are OBJECTIVELY BAD.

[christianm77]

I'm trying to avoid work, you can probably tell.

BTW - I do hope you realise I am being very silly and stupid on purpose. My sense of humour isn't very sophisticated.

[JakeAcci]

You are OBJECTIVELY BAD.

I guess for some people, like, objectivity is their thing and like, I guess that's cool, for them.

[Drumbler]

This is quite amusing methinks.

And interesting.

[christianm77]

I guess for some people, like, objectivity is their thing and like, I guess that's cool, for them.

That's just, like, your opinion man.

However, I am completely objective at all times.

(Reality is frequently subjective, however.)

[bako]

If I were to start all over:

I would study structures from an intervallic perspective.

Learn all the possible fingerings for major, minor and augmented 2nds

Build 3 note scale fragments

W W // W H // H W // H A2 // A2 H // H H //

4 note fragments

W W H // W H W // H W W // W W W // H W H // W H A2 // H A2 H // A2 H W // H H H // W H H // H H W //

Then I would work on all fingerings linking the adjacent scale fragments.
If I know the small fragments well then it is a relatively simple task to combine them.
This provides enough tools to construct:

chromatic, whole tone, major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished, bebop scales and ???

Next, I would work on major and minor 3rds and address arpeggios in a similar fashion as above.

Etc., onward through all intervals and their related structures.

Of course, this assumes a level of understanding that was severely missing from my musical beginnings.
Oh well. As it is, this is a perspective that evolved gradually for me. It peacefully coexists alongside some of
the standard guitar/musical mindsets. My interest is in being flexible which in my opinion is well served by understanding
how the macro is formed by the micro.

[Jonah]

I began playing classical.. so I played Segovian fingering first.
When I got into jazz I practiced a few different approches... playing in position with stretches. Playin 3 fingers with slides and stretches... playing 'upside down' (when you play towards hogh but the hand moves from high position to low)...

The push was a actually a mater-class where my teacher criticized some fingerings but at teh same time I saw that he demonstrated each approach with fantastic fluency.. so he just could do it any way.

Recently I noticed that I when I play I still play in positions but use a lot of slides and stretches... but basic realtion is still a postion... if I make a strecth then it is ever moveing to another position or stretch from this position... basic point in it - imho - is that my left hand is just moving like being there on the reail whatever I do (stretch or slide)...

So it seems to me that now all the approches becam mixed I just like stopped thinking about it at all...

Pinky is the thing too... some other people noticed that whatever I play my pinky - even when it's free - is still up there over ther 4th or 5th string

To me technique is the last thing to think about much... just drill a week or two and move on. Everything you do on the instrument will be your benifite.

[Jonah]

That's just, like, your opinion man.

However, I am completely objective at all times.

(Reality is frequently subjective, however.)

oh... please hold me tight to stay away from making this a huge off-top)))