Guitar Pick attack at fast speed

[christianm77]

One benefit of at least practicing with a rather strong pick attack, in my book, is that it will make you use the optimum hand position and movement for picking in general. It will be fruitful when you're picking with less attack as well.

I'm not sure about that.

[MatsP]

Sheryl Bailey says she picks very softly, and suggests her students always practice with an amp for that reason.

To each his/her own.

[MatsP]

I'm not sure about that.

This is in my book, once again. And it's much easier to go from practicing hard picking to soft than the other way round. Unless you want everything to sound mushy, of course. Since you gypsy pick, you probably have a pretty strong attack already, or at least are able to use it at your command.

EDIT: There seems to be a common consensus among many jazz guitarists that everything should sound like it's embedded in cotton. No treble, light attack, you know what I mean. That's not really my bag (nor is it John McLaughlin's).

[MatsP]

Sheryl Bailey says she picks very softly, and suggests her students always practice with an amp for that reason.

To be honest, I think she's got a pretty forceful pick attack, judging by listening to some YouTube clips. She's got that weird Benson angle of the hand as well

[MatsP]

To be honest, I think she's got a pretty forceful pick attack, judging by listening to some YouTube clips. She's got that weird Benson angle of the hand as well

From an interview:

Though her attack is as authoritative as any in the business, Bailey does not assault the guitar. “The faster I play the lighter I touch the instrument,” she explains. “Jaco would crank his amp up loud and play with a feather touch, and that’s how he could play so fast.” Bailey eschews Pastorious’ often room-shaking volume, however. “I keep my amp just loud enough so that I can have a range of dynamics,” she says. “You want to develop dynamics so that everything isn’t the same level all the time.”

There we go again. The faster she plays, the lighter she touches the instrument. That's not necessary if you know how to do it properly.

[christianm77]

To be honest, I think she's got a pretty forceful pick attack, judging by listening to some YouTube clips. She's got that weird Benson angle of the hand as well

That's what she says in interviews:

SB: I play a Yamaha SA 1500 – a pygmy 335 -Yamaha gave it to me when I was on tour in Japan with Richard Bona – it’s a proto-type, it’s quirky and I love it. I just started using the Clarus 2R by Acoustic Image, w/ a 12″ Raezor’s Edge Extended Range cabinet, which I’m also digging because it’s soooo clean, loud and it doesn’t color your guitar’s natural tone….on my discs I used my old workhorse Tech 21 Trademark 60….my tone comes from my right hand technique, not so much the gear – I’ve developed a feather-light touch that let’s the strings ring out and get the most sound and dynamic.

When I heard her live, it did sound pretty forceful, I have to say.

But here's the thing - it's not necessarily about how hard you hit the strings as the intention. If you can pick delicately and with a lot of intention through an amp, then that will read as forceful. Just look at rock guitar players!

Another example is gypsy rhythm guitar. You don't want that to be too loud (you will drown out the lead guitarist or violinist), but you do want it to be forceful and percussive. That's quite a skill - cultivating a range of dynamics with intensity and rhythm.

EDIT: just saw your post above... Jinx :-)

[christianm77]

This is in my book, once again. And it's much easier to go from practicing hard picking to soft than the other way round. Unless you want everything to sound mushy, of course. Since you gypsy pick, you probably have a pretty strong attack already, or at least are able to use it at your command.

EDIT: There seems to be a common consensus among many jazz guitarists that everything should sound like it's embedded in cotton. No treble, light attack, you know what I mean. That's not really my bag (nor is it John McLaughlin's).

Indeed... I wonder if these guys have actually listened to Grant Green? Wes? Charlie Christian? George Benson? Check out this jazz guitar tone lol:

Sorry to keep bringing it back to her, but, Sheryl Bailey advises her students against rolling off treble on the amp. I tend to agree with this within reason - every room is different.

There are a lot of bedroom guitar players out there - they will get a great sound in the practice room and wonder why they aren't loud enough live with a band. The answer is inappropriate EQ. My bug bear for live sound is actually too much bass on the guitar, actually and I'm always rolling off the bottom end so that the double bass can be heard. What you want is a bit of treble and a lot of midrange.

However - there are issues with sound physics and the way our ears work. Basically - the louder you are, the more prominent the bass becomes to the ears. What I think is a good sound in the room will often sound a bit trebly when recorded.... Secondly if you are off-beam - that is the speaker isn't pointing at you, you hear less treble. So it's good to use an amp stand or a chair for playing live so you can actually hear your sound.

Hate having the speaker too close to my ear though..... Urrrrrghh. I've been playing live jazz continuously for around 20 years, and live sound is still a black art to me.

I do roll off the treble on acoustic amps when playing electric, just because the top end tends to be so hifi (such as the AER) but on electric amps, depends on the room.

Metheny changed the way jazz guitar sounded, but you would never say his tone lacks top end.

Having played a majority of acoustic guitar gigs for around 6 years, I've cultivated a certain right hand technique, but on electric I find I need to find a different way of doing things. Doing what I do on acoustic, picking so hard, sounds a bit much unless I put like gauge 15 strings on or something. I want a more legato post Metheny sound I guess.

But then if you like John McLaughlin's machine gun thing, maybe you like that sound.

It's always about the musical result.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Most "modern" jazz players, actually. Even Barney Kessel is pretty sloppy when playing fast.

Not to mention metal guitarists, who often use a feather-light attack on speedy runs. That works because of the distortion that compresses the sound, and hence compensates for the attack. Unfortunately every note will sound more or less the same, the dynamics will suffer, and it will sound like crap unplugged.

This is the reason I spend as much time as I do on a flat-top acoustic. As a rock guitarist, it's far too easy to lose a sense of touch once the power tubes are sweating -- playing my flat-top grounds me on the realities of the instrument, and my playing it. And when I get back to amplified playing, I'm much more able to control nuances.

I also practice rock unplugged on a solid-body, so that I can hear how clean -- or in my case, how sloppy -- my playing really is.

When there ain't any make-up on the gal, you can see how pretty, or ugly, she is.

[generalduke]

I´m new to this forum and impressed by the collected knowledge and information. (Came hear searching for help with studying intervals in "advancing guitarist") A good breakdown of different styles of picking is by Tuck Andress:

Tuck & Patti: Tuck's Corner

pick & finger style technique

I´ve ended up holding the pick hard between tips and flesh of thumb and index as if you want to pince someones ear (in a mean way) while relaxing forearm, upper arm an shoulder.

[generalduke]

Most "modern" jazz players, actually. Even Barney Kessel is pretty sloppy when playing fast.

Not to mention metal guitarists, who often use a feather-light attack on speedy runs. That works because of the distortion that compresses the sound, and hence compensates for the attack. Unfortunately every note will sound more or less the same, the dynamics will suffer, and it will sound like crap unplugged.

A "little" outside the jazz context but he´s a true master of picking technique

[stratoskier]

When I think of players with a very light touch, Allen Hinds is the first that comes to mind. I'm intrigued by how "calm" his hands appear to be, even when handling some pretty complex passages. Here's one example, taken from a series of Guitar Techniques instructional videos:

[generalduke]

I´ve been focussing on my picking technique for some years now and since shredding is popular in metal there are many players with excellent right hand technique to learn from. Playing fast means to minimize movement without getting to the point where arm muscles tighten up. Synchronisation between hands and crossing strings with different combinations of up and downstrokes is essential. How much pressure you have to apply to the pick also depends on what strings you play on (higher strings less pressure) pick angle and like you say how much of the pick is touching the string.

[Johnny_L]

It drives me crazy when I hear my volume decrease as my speed increases. When I play unplugged I notice it and when I am playing at a high tempo plugged in, I really notice it.

I immediately back off and practice the particular phrase at a slower tempo. But I do have to say that an amp and a compressor can hide a lot of that "lack of volume" or "lost volume."

The volume differences between playing rhythm/slow leads/runs is an issue in every musical style I have experience with.
I know that a lot of players use compressors (I think this is relevant for players using single coils or lower output humbuckers). Others use various drives or boost pedals.

I became completely old school lately - and started messing with my volume knob and picking dynamic. I actually start looking for the appropriate tone with my guitar volume knob on 7-8 and work from there. I'm generally a heavy picker yet I don't mind going for a lighter touch when I do a fast run. I don't do a lot of them anyway.

BTW, choosing the right pick and playing with the guitar's action has a a lot of impact on how much attack your guitar has. Of course higher string action might slow you down... so there's that trade off again...