I really think I'm done with the pick...well...maybe.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2016, 09:55 PM

So I haven't picked up a pick I weeks, aside from teaching...

I dunno. I feel like I'm getting somewhere...

Needs practice. But I'm as comfortable as I've ever been.

So anyway, my point here--other fingers only players...got favorite exercises? Pieces for different techniques...I'm wading slowing into some flamenco stuff, I have no desire to play flamenco, but I love the dynamic possibilities available with that technique.

Anyway, time to apply what I've been doing to a steel string guitar. Gotta see if I can hack it. Because I'm not ready to give up steel strings...

**AlsoRan** · 07-21-2016, 10:06 PM

That right hand is looking pretty good. Nice tone, and you can "pop" the strings with your hands when you want get that extra expression.

I always respected the many sonic possibilities of playing with fingers as opposed to the pick. I wish I had time to explore them.

**citizenk74** · 07-21-2016, 10:28 PM

Wow, Mr. B! That was nice! I quit using picks a couple of years ago (after amassing a collection of two-hundred plus, LOL). I find it useful for me in that it breaks up the reflexive lickishness to which I am subject and forces me to be a little more spontaneously melodic (I hope). Also slows me down, which is good, with greater attention to phrasing and so forth.
Keep up the good work!

**Cunamara** · 07-22-2016, 12:49 AM

Gene Bertoncini's book "Approaching the Guitar" has some helpful right hand information.

TH · 07-22-2016, 01:19 AM

You ever seen Ralph Towner's book on improvisation and classical guitar? It's out of print but it's an amazing work of instructional publication. Pieces, technique for left and right hand. And lots of subtleties of techniques most jazzers don't even think of. His notes on muting strings is worth the whole book alone. Some serious fingerstyle instruction. Mick told me about this book; worth seeking out.

Oh, and happy birthday.

David

**Frank67** · 07-22-2016, 01:26 AM

That sounded really good!

**emanresu** · 07-22-2016, 04:01 AM

Nice

I used pick but I can do lines & "wrumwrum" sounding chords. Fingers are much better almost every way

**Jonah** · 07-22-2016, 06:53 AM

Cassical basic studies... I believe Sor's school (edited by Costa) is one of the best...

Also Carcassi's school...

They would really help you to deveolpe accomplished finger techique... independence of fingers in appergiato and in lines and all...
Even if you play 3-4 of them for a couple of weeks daily you will feel the improvement...

Nothing developes right hand technique better than playing classical etudes.

You can ignore hand position though if you do not play with nails...

My situation was absolutely different... I played plassical since I was a kid and so I never played with a pick before I got jazz steel string guitar a few year ago... and I had to learn...

But even now I fell more comfortable fingerstyle

But I had adjust my playing to steel string... I do not like nails...

**rcpj** · 07-22-2016, 07:54 AM

Nice to see another possible pick-less convert..

Yeah 19th century etudes by Carcassi, etc all good to develop RH strength, but for me nothing like a good diet selected Bach solo violin partitas movements and various one finger - per -fret - type drill patterns are best if you want develop a good fingerstyle technique for jazz purposes - especially for single line playing

I play flamenco and it is great for chops, however the weight and attack of the right hand (when played properly) is a bit heavy perhaps in a jazz context.The one thing that proper study of flamenco will give you is a good thumb (people don't realize how much of this music is being played with thumb), which if you develop the right 'bounce' for, is essentially what Wes was doing attack wise etc..

Don't forget to develop your slurring well if going fingerstyle..and above all the transition needs lots of patience for those used to picks..but persevere and you'll get results

**Jonah** · 07-22-2016, 08:07 AM

Yeah 19th century etudes by Carcassi, etc all good to develop RH strength, but for me nothing like a good diet selected Bach solo violin partitas movements and various one finger - per -fret - type drill patterns are best if you want develop a good fingerstyle technique for jazz purposes - especially for single line playing

I agree... (by the way any clarinet and violine etudes also work - but Bach is just much more intersting to play - you may actually end up with switching to classical music))))

The advantage of Sor and even more Carcassi/Giuliani etudes maybe because the Italian schoole was more about playing in chordal arpeggiato style involving open strings and all...
so they develope independence of fingers playing harp-like mixed with tremolo and lines...

My idea that when you achieve stable techique and control in various combinations of arpeggiato style of playing - you get very strong basis for right hand finger style and you can easily add lines techique to it......
and lines technique alone on the contrary may leave with only lines-playing skills....

Even playing simple Gomez Romance with all voice-leading conrol and melody will make you feel much more deeply grounded than just learning lines patterns and technique

**emanresu** · 07-22-2016, 08:10 AM

Oh, as rcpj mentioned the thumb - it reminded me that OPs thumb was not at it's best possible shape.. Both - the shape and the "shape" . Bring it a bit more out so it doesn't bother the fingers and gets more freedom. Doesn't have to be too much in the end but you can teach him good manners with some exaggeration. The best thing with the thumb is that although in classical style it is the bass player mostly but when doing jazz soloing, it gets to be almost equal with fingers, making it possible to play uber fast... some licks. It takes some time but not too much at all. And you are almost there already

**mr. beaumont** · 07-22-2016, 09:24 AM

Thanks guys. Great ideas.

I've been going back through Noad's book of studies, just starting from the beginning. I have the Sor studies somewhere. That will help with the finger independence.

I like the idea of violin or clarinet studies to help with single note lines.

My thumb will be an issue...it's bent even when relaxed. But, worth a shot...I like that line about "a little exaggeration" that's very true.

**NSJ** · 07-22-2016, 10:35 AM

Giuliani (not Rudy) "120 exercises for the right hand ".

If you can do that, you can do a lot. Also Jimmy Weigles basic principle for two line movement: alternate the P and the I while simultaneously alternating the M and the A. Now that shit is really hard to keep straight .

**Chuck** · 07-22-2016, 10:38 AM

+1 on all of the above recommendations

My 2 cents: get yourself correctly orientated _ take a look at Scott Tenant's stuff, Jeff ....

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...umping%20nylon

**lammie200** · 07-22-2016, 10:45 AM

+1 on fingers only. I have never really devoted myself to using a pick in 35 years of playing guitar. I know that I am not as fast as a lot of other guitars, but I have always wanted the freedom of utilizing all of my pick hand fingers on anything that I want to do. Good luck to the converts.

**christianm77** · 07-22-2016, 10:52 AM

Nice work. Sylvain Luc anyone?

**Nate Miller** · 07-22-2016, 11:36 AM

Mr B, those La Bella jazz tapes make playing with nails on an archtop pretty reasonable. The problem with steel is always the nail wear. It wears your nails out faster than they grow if you play a lot.

the jazz tapes have a real good feel to them. I put the white tapes on my 175

I've been playing mostly fingers all summer

**blackcat** · 07-22-2016, 11:48 AM

[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;674126]So I haven't picked up a pick I weeks, aside from teaching...

I dunno. I feel like I'm getting somewhere...

Needs practice. But I'm as comfortable as I've ever been.

So anyway, my point here--other fingers only players...got favorite exercises? Pieces for different techniques...I'm wading slowing into some flamenco stuff, I have no desire to play flamenco, but I love the dynamic possibilities available with that technique.

Anyway, time to apply what I've been doing to a steel string guitar. Gotta see if I can hack it. Because I'm not ready to give up steel strings...[/QUOTE

Excellent. You do seem to have a rather long if not double jointed thumb there Jeff something on the lines of Wes? Not suggesting that makes it easy.

**lammie200** · 07-22-2016, 12:33 PM

I am probably the exact wrong person to give you advice, but here are a few things that I do. I think that they may be fairly obvious though. This is especially true given what you can already do.

1. Put my thumb and index finger together as if I am holding a pick and strum both up and down on multiple strings with the edge of my thumb near the corner of my nail. Having the thumb and index finger together gives me more stability for harder strumming;

2. Strum with just my thumb with no additional support or with the support of my index finger back further back nearer my thumb knuckle. Sometimes I even turn my thumb so the the contact with the strings is at the top middle edge of my nail as opposed to the corner of the nail;

3. Alternate up and down picking with my thumb only. Up picking is a craft unto itself but can be useful on single note runs;

4. Down pick with my thumb and up pick with my index finger on alternate strings or the same string. For me this is where I notice that I may not be quite as fast as someone that uses a pick.

5. I also do #4 with my thumb and middle finger or ring finger. Sometimes I work using my thumb and just one other finger. I seem to get more precision out of that technique. Sometimes I end up doing this when I playing strings that aren't adjacent to each other.

6. Use any fingers that you like in any fashion but start your phrase with them and end your phrase using your thumb on either a down stroke or an up stroke. You don't necessarily need to use your thumb on a bass note either.

7. Anchor your pinky against the body of the guitar. Oh wait, you aren't supposed to do that. I do it anyway.

TBH steel strings don't make a difference for me. Also, I don't grow my nails out.

**ronjazz** · 07-22-2016, 12:58 PM

straightening that thumb, while a big effort, will help to balance and open your hand. I would suggest a few minutes a day of placing your i-m-a fingers on the first string and then playing scale and arpeggio fragments with your thumb. You may benefit from a little more "air" in your right hand. Sounds good, though, my concerns are the long-term problems that may develop from your position.

**NSJ** · 07-22-2016, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

a few minutes a day of placing your i-m-a fingers on the first string and then playing scale and arpeggio fragments with your thumb.

tremolo tremolo tremolo and more tremolo !

The thumb should be as agile and useful as a pick for single note lines

**emanresu** · 07-22-2016, 01:56 PM

1.Put i.m.a on the 3rd string and with the thumb you play the 6th and 1th string while keeping the fingers on their places. Thats what i'm asking the students to do at the 1st lesson and that way they get the right hand right in 20 seconds - each single one of them. But it tends to float away shortly after of course

2.Put i.m.a on the 1st string and with the thumb you make up&down rasqueado strokes on the rest of the strings. The backward stroke should be stronger and the thumb should go as far as it can. Stretch as much as you can.

I play both the classical and electric guitar with fingers and its not really the same for me. Classical hand is in the air, electric hand keeps the thumb or the fingers at the strings as a support whenever they are free. So different.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-22-2016, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

1.Put i.m.a on the 3rd string and with the thumb you play the 6th and 1th string while keeping the fingers on their places. Thats what i'm asking the students to do at the 1st lesson and that way they get the right hand right in 20 seconds - each single one of them. But it tends to float away shortly after of course

2.Put i.m.a on the 1st string and with the thumb you make up&down rasqueado strokes on the rest of the strings. The backward stroke should be stronger and the thumb should go as far as it can. Stretch as much as you can.

I play both the classical and electric guitar with fingers and its not really the same for me. Classical hand is in the air, electric hand keeps the thumb or the fingers at the strings as a support whenever they are free. So different.

Just tried this. Wow, great exercise, thank you.

Thanks everybody, so much good stuff for me to go through. Lots of fun ahead of me.

**srs** · 07-22-2016, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

.

Also Jimmy Weigles basic principle for two line movement: alternate the P and the I while simultaneously alternating the M and the A. Now that shit is really hard to keep straight .

The material will be easier to find if you correctly credit Jimmy Wyble

**NSJ** · 07-22-2016, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by srs

The material will be easier to find if you correctly credit Jimmy Wyble

Right. Sorry. I was dictating using Siri. I know all about Jimmy. My teacher was the one who convinced him, after a series of conversations, many decades ago, that, for what he wanted to do, not only did he need to learn how to play finger style, but he needed to take classical lessons for the classical right hand technique. Finally, Jimmy agreed, and my teacher flew to LA to have him meet someone from Ramirez guitars,and set them up with a top of the notch classical.

Jimmy wound up studying classical with the Brazilian guy in LA who would play with the modern Jazz Quartet, along other acts. I was forget his name . Romero somebody or another.