the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist

[targuit]

Catchy title, eh? Remember those ads in the magazine for weight lifting programs where the little guy on the beach gets sand kicked in his face by the muscle head dude eyeing his girlfriend? Played on your insecurities - no one wants to get sand kicked in his face by a guy trying to steal his girlfriend - but there was a drop of truth in the ad. Work outs over time build a strong physique. Just not overnight.

Well, I want to deliver on the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist. First, build a solid technical foundation. Second, get a software music slow downer like Transpose or Song Surgeon. Or just use YouTube. And play along at half speed on the uptempo tunes that seemed impossible at normal speed. Just slow it down to half speed. And voila! The world becomes your oyster. The veils fall away.

Now I realize there is more to it. Years of practice, learning some theory, and mostly cultivating your ears. But the biggest obstacle that guys like me faced for most of my life are ....gone! I used to have a Tascam CD Trainer that slowed down the normal speed of the CD playing to varied percentages of normal speed. And I enjoyed using that thing until it died one day many years ago now. And I don't have Transcribe or other software. But I finally started to use that half speed adjustment on YouTube with up tempo tunes played by a variety of great jazz guitarists and....as I said, the veils fall away. Their technique is revealed just by playing at half speed. Things are so much better for aspiring guitarists today. These tools are the ultimate way to assimilate the style of the greats. I don't think you really need today to transcribe solos so much as to just "play along" at half speed. Amazingly effective.

Now I don't even know how long YT has offered this technical slow downer thing. I know I did not see that option years ago, so it is relatively recent. But tonight was the first time I used it on some Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass cuts. Great tool if you already are comfortable on the neck.

Wish I had had this option back in my early twenties. Water under the bridge for me, but for anyone still young, this is the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist. YouTube at half speed.

[nick1994]

i don't know about slowing down music. miles, charlie parker, joe pass, jim hall, bill evans, they didn't need slow down programs and we don't either. not to say it won't help to slow things down but isn't the idea to get to the point in which you don't have to slow things down?
same with charts. avoid crutches.

[55bar]

Catchy title, eh? Remember those ads in the magazine for weight lifting programs where the little guy on the beach gets sand kicked in his face by the muscle head dude eyeing his girlfriend? Played on your insecurities - no one wants to get sand kicked in his face by a guy trying to steal his girlfriend - but there was a drop of truth in the ad. Work outs over time build a strong physique. Just not overnight.

Well, I want to deliver on the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist. First, build a solid technical foundation. Second, get a software music slow downer like Transpose or Song Surgeon. Or just use YouTube. And play along at half speed on the uptempo tunes that seemed impossible at normal speed. Just slow it down to half speed. And voila! The world becomes your oyster. The veils fall away.

Now I realize there is more to it. Years of practice, learning some theory, and mostly cultivating your ears. But the biggest obstacle that guys like me faced for most of my life are ....gone! I used to have a Tascam CD Trainer that slowed down the normal speed of the CD playing to varied percentages of normal speed. And I enjoyed using that thing until it died one day many years ago now. And I don't have Transcribe or other software. But I finally started to use that half speed adjustment on YouTube with up tempo tunes played by a variety of great jazz guitarists and....as I said, the veils fall away. Their technique is revealed just by playing at half speed. Things are so much better for aspiring guitarists today. These tools are the ultimate way to assimilate the style of the greats. I don't think you really need today to transcribe solos so much as to just "play along" at half speed. Amazingly effective.

Now I don't even know how long YT has offered this technical slow downer thing. I know I did not see that option years ago, so it is relatively recent. But tonight was the first time I used it on some Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass cuts. Great tool if you already are comfortable on the neck.

Wish I had had this option back in my early twenties. Water under the bridge for me, but for anyone still young, this is the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist. YouTube at half speed.

Great can't wait to hear your first album, all tunes at half tempo right?

[Shadow of the Sun]

The first two replies on this thread honestly push one of my single issue wonks.

"The greats didn't do this, so why should I?"

Well I know for a goddamn fact that there were some great jazz players who learned songs by putting 'em on a record player and setting it at a lower RPM.

What you're saying is "I have access to this resource that none of my heroes had which can really improve my play... but I'm not going to use it." Seriously? Coz I'm sure as hell that they'd have jumped at this opportunity.

[55bar]

The first two replies on this thread honestly push one of my single issue wonks.

"The greats didn't do this, so why should I?"

Well I know for a goddamn fact that there were some great jazz players who learned songs by putting 'em on a record player and setting it at a lower RPM.

What you're saying is "I have access to this resource that none of my heroes had which can really improve my play... but I'm not going to use it." Seriously? Coz I'm sure as hell that they'd have jumped at this opportunity.

Wow, I for one was poking a bit of light fun, I have books upon books of transcriptions I've done since I've been a kid all slowed down.

It's music shouldn't we all have a sense of humour?

[TH]

This discussion has been and will continue to be the driving point of many threads and points of agreement and disagreement on this forum. Somehow, sweeping statements like "Do this and you'll be a great [____]" are more indicative of the revelations of the amateur journeyman than the seasoned master. But be that as it may, having that kind of absolute enthusiasm is a part of getting there. I just think it's important not to confuse the revelations of the individual steps with the course of the whole journey.

Learning the jazz idiom is a true integrative process. It's linguistic, you need to have lexicon, syntax and semantic content. It's also a synthesis of experience and the filtering process by which your own art is created. Now you can get this from others, and transcription is a valid source, but there are many other ways to create a voice and achieve mastery. Whether you transcribe or not, mastery is achieved by doing... a lot. Out of that comes the sense of priority, the hierarchy of values that informs the choice of options, the relationship of the ear to the hand, the balance of sound and silence that allows for insightful thought. These are internal parameters that come intrinsically from experience and your personality. Those people you transcribe? Well they got it on their own. It's their parameters you're trying to assimilate. You can take it from them but they were human beings and they earned the right to play that way, through doing. You have that right too; how you exercise it is up to you.

I have to admit it. I love ABBA. I think they are masters of the pop song. They learned how to sing really great pop songs (IMHO) and they didn't even speak english. They sounded it out and learned to sing phonetically. They were quite convincing. My point? They learned the right steps to be convincing but they didn't possess the inherent linguistic skills and options to have an intelligent and profound conversation. What you get from transcription is much more important than what you take.

Monk, he got a lot from Ellington but his voice came from hearing himself. Tristano, he followed the beboppers but his voice came from his love of Bach as much as bop. Mick Goodrick and John Abercrombie studied with Jack Peterson but they created an entire movement in modern guitar and Mick has been a staunch believer in finding your way outside of transcribing. I just saw Ben Monder, and I'd go as far as to say he's re-defining the genre. The ceaseless study of possibility is not something you achieve by keeping your eyes focused on the past. It's an overall vision. For some it's in the footsteps of others, for others it's seeing things differently.

In my experience, one thing I've noticed is the sheer originality that comes from the prime movers of a genre or movement. That's because they're given free reign. It's their individual actions that cast the shadows. They take a canon, yes, but they create a new one; by themselves.
We have that choice. Yes I know great players who don't follow others' footsteps. They didn't get where they did by transcribing. That was their choice. And when they teach, the greatest thing they impart is the knowledge that transcription is just one option.
Learn to value the choice.

Just one opinion from someone still finding my own way.

David

[destinytot]

Speaking of slowing down, I'm surprised at how effectively tapping on one and three seems to work.

[TH]

Wow, I for one was poking a bit of light fun, I have books upon books of transcriptions I've done since I've been a kid all slowed down.

It's music shouldn't we all have a sense of humour?

NO GODDAMMIT! AND GO F**K YOURSELF WHILE YOU'RE AT IT.
(ha ha)

[destinytot]

i don't know about slowing down music. miles, charlie parker, joe pass, jim hall, bill evans, they didn't need slow down programs and we don't either. not to say it won't help to slow things down but isn't the idea to get to the point in which you don't have to slow things down?
same with charts. avoid crutches.

I agree when it comes to playing/performing - but I'm not so sure with regard to learning. "A drowning man can't learn to swim." Chris Lonsdale (specialist in learning acceleration.)

[55bar]

NO GODDAMMIT! AND GO F**K YOURSELF WHILE YOU'RE AT IT.
(ha ha)

NO F*%#K YOU I'M RIGHT!!!

DAMN MUSIC MAKES ME SO MAD!

[nick1994]

I agree when it comes to playing/performing - but I'm not so sure with regard to learning. "A drowning man can't learn to swim." Chris Lonsdale (specialist in learning acceleration.)

don't run before you can walk but don't ride around in a wheelchair thinking that you're learning how to walk. the danger is that people might get into the habit of transcribing at half speed in which they need it at half speed in order to hear it. sort of defeats the purpose for me.

[mr. beaumont]

Speaking of slowing down, I'm surprised at how effectively tapping on one and three seems to work.

It's remarkable, isn't it?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I guess the title is somewhat of a joke anyway, but I think that this click bait kind of thread title is so detrimental . I always imagine coming here the first time and seeing something like that. God helpfirst-time passersby.

[TH]

I agree when it comes to playing/performing - but I'm not so sure with regard to learning. "A drowning man can't learn to swim." Chris Lonsdale (specialist in learning acceleration.)

"The baby zebra doesn't ask the herd to slow down". David Attenborough zebra naturalist

[destinytot]

don't run before you can walk but don't .

I'd probably assume any person 'riding around in a wheelchair thinking that they're learning how to walk' to be either smart, imaginative and resourceful ('modelling', a teaching/learning strategy) or (not 'lame' but) 'blind' - and so lacking in perception as to be stupid.

I think I see your point, and - on one level - I see some truth to it.

But, on another level, I do think it's OK to assume greater levels of self-awareness, judgement and taste than can reasonably be expected from such a stupid person as depicted above (or from a very young child, in whom these attributes have yet to develop).

It really doesn't take much vision to use 'scaffolding strategies' to support learning.

[JakeAcci]

This discussion has been and will continue to be the driving point of many threads and points of agreement and disagreement on this forum. Somehow, sweeping statements like "Do this and you'll be a great [____]" are more indicative of the revelations of the amateur journeyman than the seasoned master. But be that as it may, having that kind of absolute enthusiasm is a part of getting there. I just think it's important not to confuse the revelations of the individual steps with the course of the whole journey.

Learning the jazz idiom is a true integrative process. It's linguistic, you need to have lexicon, syntax and semantic content. It's also a synthesis of experience and the filtering process by which your own art is created. Now you can get this from others, and transcription is a valid source, but there are many other ways to create a voice and achieve mastery. Whether you transcribe or not, mastery is achieved by doing... a lot. Out of that comes the sense of priority, the hierarchy of values that informs the choice of options, the relationship of the ear to the hand, the balance of sound and silence that allows for insightful thought. These are internal parameters that come intrinsically from experience and your personality. Those people you transcribe? Well they got it on their own. It's their parameters you're trying to assimilate. You can take it from them but they were human beings and they earned the right to play that way, through doing. You have that right too; how you exercise it is up to you.

I have to admit it. I love ABBA. I think they are masters of the pop song. They learned how to sing really great pop songs (IMHO) and they didn't even speak english. They sounded it out and learned to sing phonetically. They were quite convincing. My point? They learned the right steps to be convincing but they didn't possess the inherent linguistic skills and options to have an intelligent and profound conversation. What you get from transcription is much more important than what you take.

Monk, he got a lot from Ellington but his voice came from hearing himself. Tristano, he followed the beboppers but his voice came from his love of Bach as much as bop. Mick Goodrick and John Abercrombie studied with Jack Peterson but they created an entire movement in modern guitar and Mick has been a staunch believer in finding your way outside of transcribing. I just saw Ben Monder, and I'd go as far as to say he's re-defining the genre. The ceaseless study of possibility is not something you achieve by keeping your eyes focused on the past. It's an overall vision. For some it's in the footsteps of others, for others it's seeing things differently.

In my experience, one thing I've noticed is the sheer originality that comes from the prime movers of a genre or movement. That's because they're given free reign. It's their individual actions that cast the shadows. They take a canon, yes, but they create a new one; by themselves.
We have that choice. Yes I know great players who don't follow others' footsteps. They didn't get where they did by transcribing. That was their choice. And when they teach, the greatest thing they impart is the knowledge that transcription is just one option.
Learn to value the choice.

Just one opinion from someone still finding my own way.

David

Beautiful!

Also, this:

sweeping statements like "Do this and you'll be a great [____]" are more indicative of the revelations of the amateur journeyman than the seasoned master.

I think is very on point and I think we all have been guilty of it.

Because an individual might come across one thing that gets that individual over a long-standing personal hump, then believe that one thing is the key to success for all players.

Music and musical growth is a very complicated, nuanced, and often immeasurable process. It's much easier to sell simplicity. I believe one of the reasons that speed is so fetishized in the guitar world is that it's so incredibly tangible and easy to measure - there's a lot of intellectual safety there.

[MarkRhodes]

For the record, turntables used to come with a button to change the speed: 16, 33, 45, and 78 (revolutions per minute) were the norm when I was a kid. Lots of musicians slowed down recordings that way to get a better idea of what was being played. The pitch changed---it wasn't a perfect solution---but a lot of players used it. It helped.

A better solution---and some players, though not as many, did this too----was to use a reel-to-reel tape player to record a song, or section of song, from an album and slow down the playback to tease out the individual notes in a fast passage.

Contemporary technology---such as the slow-down feature at YouTube---allows one to slow down the music without altering the pitch. What's wrong with that?

Targuit's title and OP are tongue-in-cheek.

The idea that if one transcribes something at half speed one can then only play it at half speed make no more sense than to say if one plays a scale slow while learning it, one will only ever to be able to perform it at that tempo. Wrong! Some great players and teachers---Howard Roberts was one---urged students to practice slow. Take it a note at a time, so slow you can play it flawlessly, over and over, then gradually build speed. That's the "standard model" for building speed on the guitar.

If you can hear all the notes Sonny Stitt is playing in a blistering solo over rhythm changes, great! Good on you. But there's no disgrace in saying, "I didn't get all that." If you have to slow it down to hear it, that seems to be what you should do. (What is the other option? keep playing it faster than you can discern what is happening?)

[destinytot]

"The baby zebra doesn't ask the herd to slow down". David Attenborough zebra naturalist

(Always intending a respectful and friendly tone, despite strong feelings on the subject.)

I'd consider it not just inappropriate but downright cruel to knowingly apply too great a challenge to an 'elementary'/inexperienced student of 'jazz' guitar, which is what I assume the 'baby zebra' to represent for present purposes.

But for 'the advancing guitarist', sure - 'if you can't stand the heat...' (and all that - er - 'jazz')

[destinytot]

"The baby zebra doesn't ask the herd to slow down". David Attenborough zebra naturalist

I was reminded of a line in this short film ("You don't die of old age in the Serengeti!"):

[destinytot]

The secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist:

[lawson-stone]

i don't know about slowing down music. miles, charlie parker, joe pass, jim hall, bill evans, they didn't need slow down programs and we don't either. not to say it won't help to slow things down but isn't the idea to get to the point in which you don't have to slow things down?
same with charts. avoid crutches.

Actually back in the pre-computer days, we DID do slow-down. You took a 45rpm or 78rpm single and played it at 33 rpm. You could also, as you approached the point you were learning in the song. turn the stereo off. The turn-table would keep turning, but slower, and while the tubes slowly powered down, you could still hear!

Reel-to-reel tape was also common in the 50's and 60's, and you could record fast and play back slow. It dropped in pitch, but you could get it that way.

People did slow down music. They also dropped the needle on one phrase at a time until they got it.

[Drumbler]

The term "great" is thrown around until it becomes meaningless.

Parent to lousy 7 year old kid soccer player: "Oh, little Tommy, you were great! You played a great game!"

"Greatness" is reserved for the very, very, very few.

Onward...

Slowdowners are an excellent tool.

You must be willing to stink until you become half-assed. After being half-assed for awhile you become fair. From fair to ok. From ok to not bad.

For most of us, not bad will be as far as it goes.

[Boston Joe]

For the record, turntables used to come with a button to change the speed: 16, 33, 45, and 78 (revolutions per minute) were the norm when I was a kid.

I did that learning rock tunes. If you play a 33rpm LP at 16 it's slightly out of tune, but basically in the same key. Just tune down a hair, and you can learn the licks at half speed.

[targuit]

Just adding that there were a couple of posts on this thread that were made while I was composing that last post of mine. In Db. I very much agree with several observations made about the need to find your voice. I find my voice quite easily. I just open my lips and let 'er rip! Even on guitar. Jokes aside, I do try to meld my inner voice and my actual voice with my guitar playing. The ability to slow down great players to literally play along with them is like stripping the veils off a stripper one at a time....errr...ok, getting carried away with the metaphor there. But seriously it does grant great insight into a player's style, fingering, melody construction....and I learn a ton from that. Not to copy but to Assimilate.

[emanresu]

There are "youtube to mp3" converterting pages. And probably most DAWs have decent slowmo functions by now. Better than Youtube for sure.