-
I've always played something at tempo as soon as possible. Most things I can play at speed right away, lines I have to practice a few times are always as fast as I can do correctly, until it's up to speed.
its just the way that's always worked for me.
One stage we've all probably been through that you need to get out of asap, is playing tunes really slow. Let's be honest, when you first start playing changes, burning at 230 isn't going to happen. So you play the tune at half speed. The problem, is all the licks and lines you learn don't work in the real world, because when you play it at tempo, the mechanics are twice as fast, and the chords are changing at twice the speed.
So... Start practicing tunes at tempo, as soon as you can.
Hope that helps.
-
04-17-2016 02:44 PM
-
vintagelove, I was saying that I thought playing tunes and scales slowly was recommended, but I don't actually play that way. I just tend to play phrases faster than I can play them clean and I think that's a mistake because you play--mess up, play--mess up again, and you train yourself to make a mistake. Steve Vai is no cat but he is a technical wizard and when he says start slow think he means play much faster as soon as you can. After all, he didn't get those lighting chops carefully letting each note of the tune ring out. Perhaps he's one to never make a mistake, or never make the same mistake twice...? If you told me I could choose to never mess up I probably wouldn't because I've created some pretty good music on wrong notes: well, in my opinion anyway.
-
Roscoe, just fyi the "rawk" guitarists you continue to cite as "awesome" are considered rank beginners in the jazz world of real musicians.
Just fyi.......
-
boatheelmusic: I think I get the picture, but can you define "rawk" so I'll know exactly what I'm looking at here: I guess I mention these guitarists because they're considered 'great' or 'virtuoso,' and I just assume that's what everybody says and is looking for...Yes, Steve Vai is a rock guitarist and in my personal opinion he's either a mutant from outer space or a pathetic chops worshiper, though I realize he doesn't have the jazz chops of a Joe Pass or John McClaughlin.. I'm looking for ways to work smarter and not just harder in my practice routine. I exercise intensely and follow a good diet but with the disorders I have and all the medicine I often find myself sluggish and drowsy: don't say pull yourself up by your bootstraps--that's never worked. I am really sleepy but I'm gonna play the hell out of some jazz blues soon--
P.S. boat... I'm not only thrilled to be in the jazz world of real musicians...I'm planning on contributing to it best I can...
I'm working on jazz blues now as it makes the most sense right now, but if I'm lucky bop and fusion aren't far away,
not that any of those sub-genres are superior to my first and favorite jazz blues: Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, I'm in good company!
-
It's not my thing, but Steve Vai is a virtuoso in any sense of the word. Can he play through changes like the guys mentioned above? Probably not, but what he does is a different thing.
-
Not necessarily true, but if we're talking the Pearl Jam lead gtr, he could be ranked as a beginner even by the rock world.
Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
-
That's pretty strong. Personally, I would never listen to Pearl Jam by choice, but I think some props are due to a guy whose had a +20 year career in music, and been part of the making of many songs that have a lot of meaning for, and connect to many people (I am not one of those people), irregardless of not having much knowledge beyond bar chords and minor pentatonics, and having chops that are scoffed at by the internet. He must be doing something right. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
-
I actually did listen to Pearl Jam pretty closely in the 90's. While not my fav. band out of the Grunge movement, they did have some good songs, and as band they're pretty tight, great rhythm section, and great rhythm gtr. However, that second, lead gtr, he's pretty weak when I heard him playing solos. He sounded like an intermediate blues-bound player. Ok, here, I was wrong, not beginner- intermediate Originally Posted by StanG
You gotta remember that Grunge movement came right after 80's hard rock and metal, where soloing was very technically proficient. Grunge bands mostly got rid of solo guitar as such, they were looking down on it, and fair enough, since the emphasis was on the groove now. But when some of them did solo, it just sounded amateurish compare to the generation of players before them. Case in point- Pearl Jam
-
Ya'll are gonna laugh at this, but I went to see Pearl Jam with my mom, who is a huge Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam fan. She thinks if she ever met Eddie she would "just die...!" Hey, who needs guitar chops when you've got that kind of appeal?? But I listen to Grunge bands like Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, for the songs, not the playing. And though I mention Steve Vai he's actually not someone I prefer to listen to: I'd rather listen to Davis, Coltrane or Parker as I've learned to love jazz, and for singer songwriter music give me older bands any day...As I've said before I'm learning to play Jazz-Blues from an ebook I found in the Jazz Guitar estore and I absolutely love it! You get the chord, scale, arpeggio variety of jazz played over a strong blues base as well as great players like Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery to learn from. Before listening to Wes I would not have figured a thumb and four fingers would sound so good playing jazz, and Joe Pass is my kind of player: a guitar hero without a whammy bar! I can now play the 5th and 6th string root 7b9 scale as well as a few variations of the minor pent. I may have said before but one of my fave scale tricks is to take a minor pent. and add any combination of a b5, b6, b9, 6, 3, etc. I've noticed the major 3 does not take over and sound 'happy' when played against the darker minor notes, but rather adds a cool color. BTW Pearl Jam didn't have an opening band and they played for around three hours--so if you're a 90's rock fan and want your money's worth I recommend P.J.
-
Once again, I'd advise you to work on tunes. You're obviously already very good at learning scales and licks (which is why that's what you want to do - people always like to practice what they're already good at). Your efforts would be better spent learning to apply them in actual playing situations. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
(NB: This is why some of the guys on the forum get frustrated with you. This is about the dozenth time you've come in asking about scales and licks. Many guys have already told you what they think you ought to be doing, but you act like no one's told you anything.)
-
Just to clarify that, Wes hardly ever used his right-hand fingers, to my knowledge. Virtually everything you hear him play was picked with his right-hand thumb only. Which makes it even more incredible. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
(Which is one of the reasons they called one of his LPs 'The Incredible Jazz Guitar'!)
-
Boston Joe: Thanks for responding and being honest: I'm in the middle of working on some scales right now but as soon as I finish them I'm going to make myself try to learn the tunes I love to listen to. John Coltrane and Miles Davis are probably my favorites, so I'm going to work on learning them by ear. I'm not making excuses but I usually learn from sheet music and, wouldn't you know it, I'm waiting on my glasses to come in because my vision has gone from 20/20 in both eyes to 20/50 in my right and 20/60 in my left so reading tab is frustrating...No reason I can't work on my weakness which is learning by ear, which I think may be a more valuable asset than simply knowing scales and theory.
-
No tabs for jazz.
Ear training--good.
Work on tunes and scales and such simultaneously. It all fits together.
-
grahambop: I remember watching Wes play on a video of him at some kind of crunched in concert hall and I saw him use just his thumb but I ASSumed he used his fingers a good bit too. When I first started going to lessons w-a-y back in the day I used only my thumb and the teacher told me the Southern rockers I was trying to play like were pickers: so I started using a pick and for better or for worse I have not yet put it down.
-
The scales I'm finishing up are the 7b9 scale and some variations of the Minor Pent. I project that they will be very useful as they are taught in my jazz-blues ebook: I noted that the 7b9 chord and scale are kind of shells of the Phrygian Dominant, an "exotic" sounding scale I used back when I was pounding out metal. I wouldn't use it the way I used to in jazz though; don't think it would sound right. When you say no tabs do you mean no sheet music or read only standard notation (I'm guessing the latter).
-
What I'm saying is, for the most part they don't exist, or they're crap.
You really need to put the scales away and learn some tunes and start applying what you know. Right now you're just collecting knowledge with no application.
And I don't hear you talk nearly enough about chords. Chords are everything in jazz. Jazz guitar playing is not just a "lead guitar" showcase...and the chords of a tune determine where the lead can go. You know all these scales...but when will you use them?
-
I think a clip would really help forum members assist Roscoe on his journey.......
Lots of talk about modes of melodic minor yet struggling with Autumn Leaves?
IMO, something doesn't add up.....
-
mr.beaumont: I agree with you so much that the very next thing I'm going to do is ear training with a Coltrane tune. Having trouble with Autumn Leaves? I must have made a mistake in a post--it didn't take me long to get the progression of A.L. under my fingers, it's just I'm not pleased with my improvisation over it. The real challenge right now is Giant Steps and I really feel like a clueless newbie (but not nerdy) when I'm told that it's an easy, or not very hard tune to play. I tried to solo over it before I worked out the changes and that was a disaster--well, maybe there were no casualties, but I had to reassess and readdress...boatheelmusic: if you knew my background it would make more sense--I spent years wailing away at scales and modes and such and didn't know a II-V-I from a hole in the ground--not that atypical for a budding metal guitarist who eats power chords for breakfast...I mean I knew basic bar chords but was oblivious to jazz harmony...would get a clip up if I could, but not possible right now.
-
Giant steps is way beyond your level right now. Put it away and don't come back to it for at least a year.
-
A year, more like 5-10.
-
Thanks guys: I don't feel quite so inadequate now. Miles Davis has some tunes I do well with-So What!, I believe, has a lot of room for improvisation, and some of his other songs have more changes for rhythm practice..what do you think?
-
Easy to improvise over, but with only two chords 1 fret apart So What will not teach you how to handle changes.
Keep working on Autumn Leaves for 3-6 months and you'll make some small steps to where you need to go.
Improvising means little without a song under it, it's just aimless noodling unless, like Miles you have something powerful to say.
-
Well, don't take that "Giant Steps is easy" thing too seriously...it's next to impossible to play over, if you haven't played jazz. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
What I mean when I said it was "easy" is that it's not an intellectual puzzle like so many folks make it out to be...it's actually pretty logical, has a simple, Humm able melody, and the second half is jazz bread and butter--ii V I's.
Giant Steps isn't anything you should be touching now. Coltrane in general is not. So What is a shitty beginner tune, it looks easy, but it has so many possibilities...you need some restrictions...you need harmony.
Learn a few standards before you try anything modern or modal...you have to learn to navigate changes, which is something you've never had to do before.
-
Hey Roscoe, your enthusiasm is great, but here are a couple of blunt points about your posting style, which might Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
help you get something out of this forum, assuming you really want advice about playing jazz, rather than just using this forum to talk about yourself.
You keep referring in your multiple threads, and nearly all your replies, about your background as a rock player. I assume you are proud of your accomplishments in that domain and want everybody here to know you are not a beginner. If it is important to you for forum members to know you can already play, just post a clip of yourself playing on the showcase thread, or include a link in your signature to your playing, rather than always returning to it whenever somebody engages with you on the topic of playing jazz. Whatever your intention, it makes it seem like you are more interested in talking about yourself than about the topics of the threads you start. In any case, most jazz guitarists have some background in Rock, and so there is nothing special about your situation that isn't familiar to most people here.
Lots of players here also listen to rock, and if you like a particular guitarist (Vai, or the PJ guy) and want to discuss them with jazz guitar players, discuss them in the "players" thread and you'll probably get some interesting discussion.
you might also read and participate in the millions of other threads on this forum on getting started in jazz, rather than starting several threads that seem to always center on you, and how well you play or what scales you like to use. By starting threads without participating in substantial existing ones you are missing out on information that might be useful to you, again assuming you really want to learn something about jazz guitar.
And if you really are into scales, you are not alone, there are tons of threads on scales in this forum too! read and participate in those.
You've gotten valuable comments from accomplished members of this forum. You probably don't realize that in your replies you mostly are missing their point. At some point they will lose interest in engaging with you. But this forum can be great for people of all backgrounds and levels, once they get used to the idea that it works best when it isn't used like a Facebook alternative.
-
boatheelmusic: I was aiming for Coltrane but my first stop will be Autumn Leaves, as you recommended, and I'm not "blindly" following your advice, it makes sense to me and I feel I need to properly finish one tune before moving on--I have a bad habit of getting too many irons in the fire...back to what mr.beaumont said about 'jazz is chords'...that fact wasn't lost on me as it fit my observation, it's just in rock and metal I pretty much learned lead before I did rhythm, which would have been prevented had I been wiser musically, but I've learned wisdom is time plus experience times effort, or something like that---
Reply With Quote
dearmond 1100 reissue vs original which one is...
Today, 03:30 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos