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But, you imply you've mastered Gambale's technique and your OP asks "what techniques would you recommend for Bebop and what makes for good ear training?"
Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Are you here to play games and mock the advice from those who take jazz as a serious endeavor? We're not really here to rehash the glory of old southern fried rock guitarists.
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03-20-2016 10:59 PM
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Well go and listen to Charlie Christian then, and get back to me. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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I don't think I'm a master per se of Gambale's technique, but my pick and fingers are well accustomed to it, so much so in fact that I can't really alternate pick scales--I suppose if I applied myself I could but I know from years of playing and listening that phrasing is the key...I know it may sound ironic for me to say that given what I've asked about technique, but I have come to a point where I want to focus, play, and let the chips fall...so I'm not being contradictory since I thought I wanted to play jazz when I was studying and asking about technique. I thought I made clear that the reason for the video was to get another musician's idea about soul, but maybe I wasn't implying anything like that at all--no, perhaps what I'm trying to say is I am a southern fried rocker and my glory has yet to come! though I don't imagine I will shine brighter than my predecessors. Good night to all and to all a good night...!
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cosmic gumbo: I forgot to say I do not play games and you can be damn sure I take what I do as seriously as any of you take jazz. And I'm not putting down jazz--hell, one of my uncles is a great guitarist but nowadays he plays country gospel and works the sound board at a jazz club: got nothing but love and respect for him, and not just because he's family.
christianm77: I just listened to Charlie Christian for the first time: real raw but precise, I like it. But if you want to hear my kind of soul listen to Pantera's 10's, Floods, and their cover of Planet Caravan, or if you don't have time any one of them. Dime had great technique as evidenced by his riffing and soloing, but they reined him in a lot for sake of the band's overall sound. More than fierce picking and legato I'm going to start listening for the notes to leave out. I've watched a lot of Brian Setzer and he can throw the notes on, but because of his taste he knows what not to play as well. All just my opinion so nobody get high strung and fret (ha ha)...Goodbye.
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Funny thing is, Dimebag was a great guitarist indeed! I thought Pantera was the last metal band that stayed within tradition and even improved it. You could hear the whole evolution of heavy music in them. They would be one of my fav. bands, if not for this guy Anselmo. Can't stand him. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Brian Setzer is the guy who brought me back to jazz. He maybe is not considered a 'serious' jazz player, but sure can be a gateway to jazz.
Btw. that technique vs soul sentiment is total BS, usually a resort for people who are too lazy to work on theirs and jealous that someone else did.
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I agree about Pantera, but I've never thought of them as being the first or the last, just my favorite.
Phil Anselmo is easy to love or easy to hate. I think he's a good vocalist and from everything I hear
about him he is a workaholic who never stops, though I imagine he's mellowed somewhat with age.
I am a workaholic on guitar, as I'm sure many others are (but not that many) and I have what I
would call formidable technique in the styles I play, but of course, there is always someone better.
What really matters I think is what you bring to the table: what you play, how you play it, and of
course does it sound good? As far as soul goes it's hard to define but you know it when you hear
it, just like good playing. That's all I've got to say on this forum so I won't be posting or checking
back in again. Thanks for the discussion and if you don't live it it won't come out your amp...!
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Good stuff, glad you liked him, thought he might appeal. Charlie Christian is the common ancestor for not only jazz guitar but all the rockabilly/early rock/jump jive players that came afterwards. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Dime was a great player.
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You say that every ten minutes. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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We keep pulling him back in! Originally Posted by StanG
That's what happens when you are passionate about something, like playing the guitar. Its hard to bow out of a good conversation.
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I'm not really a jazz player, but I love this forum, because even though I'm not a jazz player, you guys are some of the politest and best informed guys around, and very knowledgeable when it comes to technique.
Also because I run on the basic assumption that the fundamentals of jazz improvisation can be applied to any harmonic music style - playing around chords, stacking triads, using approach tones etc.
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Shadow of the Sun you would like Wayne Shorter's definition of the word jazz - "I dare you".
Defining soul is an interesting topic.
We all have soul yeah?
Is soul really just a musical word for charismatic?
eg a drunken hobo could read some high brow poem and people might say wow that was soulful yet he may not understand what he read? How can that then be soulful? Was Bon Scott soulful or just a drunk'n larrikin that could not give a stuff and could spin a good yarn when he had to?
Being able to express yourself musically with passion = soul? But like the above may not come from the heart your just good at being charismatic on your instrument.
Maybe all human made music is soulful just some artists are more charismatic in their expression? It is always their soul. I find Pat Martino pretty bland, but I could not say not soulful, he is expressing himself and the problem lies with me not digging it. It may touch the next person eg the comments re SRV above. Is Tom Waits soulful or a contrived product flogger?
Can any of us with our 1st world problems ever be as charismatic and expressive as the repressed African Americans (is that a respectful term, sitting in Australia never sure how to make that cultural reference) of the 50's? Can Keb Mo ever be as charismatic, I say he can it is a story telling technique so maybe it is a verb not an adjective nor a noun. Is Keith Richards playing the blues in 2016 sitting on his millions less charismatic/soulful than Muddy Waters?
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yea, I can give you a couple simple little things that will help make you sound more like bop. Some things to try out are..
* - start and end some phrases off the beat. if you listen to bop, you'll hear this all over the place. Use those "short utterances" destinytot is talking about and start them off in anticipation of the beat
* - begin some phrases with a leap of a sixth. think of the opening lick in Scrapple from the Apple. Starting a line with a leap of a 6th and then filling the interval in on the way down is very bop. Monk uses a minor 7th interval this way a lot, too
* - add triplet ornaments to your line, or just listen to enough Charlie Parker that the triplets come out naturally
so naturally there's a lot more to it than that, but fool around with these ideas and try and spot this sort of stuff in what you are listening to. That will get you started
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Have seen Keb, Keith, and Miles in person, all had soul and very expressive. Bon Scott should have been knighted, Sir Bon lives on!
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Was Bon Scott soulful? Somehow I feel he wouldnt want to be dissected and anylized that way, but one thing for sure if you dont dig Bon Scott, if he doesnt make you at least smile, you aint got no soul! Never met anyone yet Originally Posted by gggomez
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ha ha just a joke---the rock band Jackyl is from my neck of the woods and in concert (I saw them in '97 I think) their lead singer Jesse James Dupree breaks out a chainsaw and goes to work on some 'stage props' we'll say. If you haven't heard of them but like AC/DC, chances are you'll dig Jackyl. Now down to business---
I started a rumpus of a thread in Improvisation with posts about scales and sky rockets (ha) and about all I could determine after everybody had put in their two notes is I'm going to have to find my way because nobody is gonna find it for me (I had no idea I had become so dependent). So the verdict on the scale thread for me is I'm not actually doing anything wrong, I just need to open up to some new possibilities. Scales give me a way to practice my technique: I alternate pick the chromatic scale up and down the fret board, do some exercises with the chromatic scale, play all the modes of the major in thirds, then alternate pick them, then sweep pick them, after that I do some angular exercises and stretches, but I just remembered I do trills and legato exercises first for a good while before working on the scales I'm less familiar with, which today was the Persian, Locrian natural seven, Locrian double flat seven...for chords and progressions I use The Guitar Grimoire Progressions and Improvisations. I mix up the jazz progressions in the back where I sometimes play just exercises and other times I play II-V-I's. Lastly I crank up the backing tracks on YouTube and today it will be Autumn Leaves that I play the changes to and improvise over. Whew! Why am I telling you all this? I think I have a good program here: I drew from Steve Vai's Workout and the Guitar Grimoire books. I know people will have different opinions about this but I don't want to fight, I want to learn something...then I want to fight for that right chord that right phrase until it's just so...
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He's a marvelously mild mannered instructor, nothing worse than the "shred guitar monkey boys" as I call them. I know we're a jazz forum but I watched him teach the Yngwie 'rotate your forearm" picking technique. I thought that was how I picked until I watched myself pick mostly from the wrist, more of an Al DiMeola kind of thing. I've tried to play like Wes Montgomery with just thumb and fingers and I have thought about using his techniques on acoustic as well as my Gretsch but I am a novice's novice when it comes to Wes' style so I need to watch him play more...any ideas about anything I've said?
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There's good videos of Wes out there. His style is pretty idiosyncratic...unless you're going to play with your thumb, most of his picking hand stuff doesn't translate...
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mr.beaumont: if I'm going to ditch the plectrum I usually pick melody and lead legato lines with my thumb and don't use my fingers except when playing chords and it's all 'idiosyncratic' as you say as opposed to my picking with a plectrum which is pretty conventional. I can sound good without a pick but I've worked so damn hard to play with one--maybe that's just it though, I've gone so far in one direction I need a change...sound too drastic? Take it slowly, piece at a time I guess? There's more than one way I know...How did Wes learn to play, was he self taught?
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I'm not sure how Wes initially learned, but the story is the thumb was developed because of necessity--wanting to practice quietly at night while his family slept.
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Probably of some interest to jazz players is I have an Uncle who is a fine guitarist, a natural, and he plays with a Fender Medium down picking with the pick and hitting the upstroke with the middle finger of his right hand...he started playing when he was only 3 years old so I imagine that's why he developed such an unconventional style. Sorry to go on and on, I'll wrap it up...mr.beaumont: I have the Jazz Guitar Chord and Jazz Guitar Arpeggio guides--if I want to work on one at a time, which do you think I should start on?
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Together, they go hand in hand.
Every chord shape you learn, learn an arpeggio based on it.
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Just to add: Pick a song and learn the chords and corresponding arpeggios of that song. Make all of your practising practical.
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I'm studying in a Jazz-Blues ebook and am having an awesome time with it...
It is the perfect fit for me right now as I pretty much know how to build chords,
construct arpeggios and my scale knowledge is satisfactory so learning the shell
chords, the 7b9 chord and scale, how to jazz up a blues progression and that's
just the first chapter, is doing me a world of good. My next goal is to learn 5 shapes
of a minor blues: the only shapes I know are the 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7 minor pent. with
the blue note and the standard major pent., which I usually bend the hell out of to
make it sound minor as major tones don't suit me unless they're wholly diatonic like
a Mixolydian or Lydian...(the Lydian family is my favorite). Arpeggios are coming up
so if I follow the ebook's instructions I should comping and soloing the Jazz-Blues very
soon...P.S. I'm also listening to Coltrane and Bird, trying to catch their licks.
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Sounds good, keep stoking that fire. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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From multiple, i.e. many sources I have learned that when learning a new scale, lick, phrase, motif, what have you you play it very slowly and mistake free at first then slowly get faster with it until you can burn: newbie advice, right? Not necessarily...I am a beginner jazz guitarist but have years of experience playing styles like rock, metal and blues, but probably mostly my own creations: it is very easy for me to write tunes but sometimes hard to learn them. That brings me to what I was saying about playing slowly and increasing speed, has everyone found that to be the best way as opposed to what I've always done which is attack the scale then badger it till it's 'right:' builds speed but not accuracy...has anybody found a chill way to learn scales, licks, etc.? (I'm learning pent. scales and the 7b9 in the Jazz Blues ebook. If you don't have it but love the blues and jazz You Must Get It...it is an awesome book that is instructive though not dry at all. I think any motivated guitarist can learn from it. REAL QUICK: Saw Pearl Jam last night they tore it up he's not a jazz cat but lead guitarist McCready has heart, taste, style, and did a helluva job with a cover of Comfortably Numb. That's it for me--
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