Working on 16th notes at 190bpm

[jzucker]

The 'nome might be set at 200bpm but it wasn't locked in at 200bpm. But yes, i agree that you can play fast 4 note per string chromatic lines

Ok first -- ehmm. no sorry its 200 bpm 16ths, doesn't matter what it sounds to you :-D.
Like i said. It depends on the Line. I didn't say that i can play everything on 200 bpm. If the line has many string changes or pick slanting changes, its harder than playing even number of notes per String.
Same if there a many chord changes to outline then. For me i wanted only show a technical example, which shows that 16th in 200 bpm is not such a big thing in some cases, if the line works with it.

But i don't know many guitar player who play 16th on 200 bpm and still playing in a melodic way, most of the time it has a "shredy" effect. Also players like Russell Malone who played up 200 bpm 16th lines, sounds shreddy when he do this.

[jzucker]

these eric johnson style 16th notes are close to 200bpm and are all alternate picked. No legato, no sweeping.

[vintagelove]

these eric johnson style 16th notes are close to 200bpm and are all alternate picked. No legato, no sweeping.

The important thing to note about the lines is they maintain the pick direction on every string change. That is pretty much the secret to all but a few freaks of nature.

Just in general...

The specifics are too hard to pin down, because there are many great pickers, who all do things a bit differently (pick slants, grips, etc). So I look for what the greats have in common rather than try to dissect one specific technique.

[ginod]

Notice that also in this video, the line is a pentatonic 2-notes per string lick. Its easier to play even number of notes when you playing alternate picking. In my video i play also 6 Notes per String. 2-4 and 6 Notes per String are easier to alternate. If you have 1 or 3nps its hard to alternate, most people switch to economy picking.

[sgcim]

Ok first -- ehmm. no sorry its 200 bpm 16ths, doesn't matter what it sounds to you :-D.
Like i said. It depends on the Line. I didn't say that i can play everything on 200 bpm. If the line has many string changes or pick slanting changes, its harder than playing even number of notes per String.
Same if there a many chord changes to outline then. For me i wanted only show a technical example, which shows that 16th in 200 bpm is not such a big thing in some cases, if the line works with it.

But i don't know many guitar player who play 16th on 200 bpm and still playing in a melodic way, most of the time it has a "shredy" effect. Also players like Russell Malone who played up 200 bpm 16th lines, sounds shreddy when he do this.

I agree about the shreddy effect. IMHO it's great for metal, fusion etc..., but pointless for MELODIC jazz playing.

If your technique allows you to play a head like Donna Lee as 16ths at 160 or higher without any mistakes or corny, stiff phrasing, and blow on it the same way, then it's a good jazz technique.
Same thing with a more modern head like 'Freedom Jazz Dance'.

A great fusion player like Guthrie Govan can play Donna Lee at 160 or higher (as 16ths) in his sleep, but when it came to blowing on it, he sounded more like a shredding country player than a jazz player on the you tube video someone put up.

[jzucker]

I don't care about what "most guitarists" do. I don't practice or strive to achieve that. I'm aiming for what I hear in my head and I'm more interested in achieving the kind of stuff that great saxophonists achieve. For them, it's routine to play a flutter of 16th notes at high speeds as an effect. Like blowing a single breath and playing sheets of sound ala Coltrane. To me, the eric johnson blues licks sound nothing like heavy metal shredding. They sound like a saxophonist playing a flurry of slurred notes and that's what I'm trying to achieve.

I agree about the shreddy effect. IMHO it's great for metal, fusion etc..., but pointless for MELODIC jazz playing.

If your technique allows you to play a head like Donna Lee as 16ths at 160 or higher without any mistakes or corny, stiff phrasing, and blow on it the same way, then it's a good jazz technique.
Same thing with a more modern head like 'Freedom Jazz Dance'.

A great fusion player like Guthrie Govan can play Donna Lee at 160 or higher (as 16ths) in his sleep, but when it came to blowing on it, he sounded more like a shredding country player than a jazz player on the you tube video someone put up.

[jzucker]

Like when I posted this clip in 2007. Folks on this forum were literally laughing at this and making fun of it and saying I wasn't making the changes and that I was just playing mindless shredding. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I'm just glad I continued on my own path and didn't pay too much attention to what the masses said was and wasn't jazz.

[Pat Clare]

Like when I posted this clip in 2007. Folks on this forum were literally laughing at this and making fun of it and saying I wasn't making the changes and that I was just playing mindless shredding. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I'm just glad I continued on my own path and didn't pay too much attention to what the masses said was and wasn't jazz.

More important than the speed is your phrasing which for me is the difference from some other example's
that are not as musical.

[AlsoRan]

Like when I posted this clip in 2007. Folks on this forum were literally laughing at this and making fun of it and saying I wasn't making the changes and that I was just playing mindless shredding. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I'm just glad I continued on my own path and didn't pay too much attention to what the masses said was and wasn't jazz.

You mentioned this, about the shredding comments, once before. I did not understand how someone could say that then and I still don't know.

To my ears, its in the same vein as some Sonny Stitt solos I have heard. There are melodic portions, there is some repetition of motifs, maybe in different keys as the chords change, and there are lines both ascending and descending.

I don't want to hijack your thread so I am going to start another on a topic your thread has reconjured in my mind.

[vintagelove]

Like when I posted this clip in 2007. Folks on this forum were literally laughing at this and making fun of it and saying I wasn't making the changes and that I was just playing mindless shredding. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I'm just glad I continued on my own path and didn't pay too much attention to what the masses said was and wasn't jazz.

The folks who couldn't hear the changes in your playing are the ones who need the work. I could follow the whole thing just fine.


The alternate picking you're doing there is on a completely different level of difficulty than the fast patterns that you typically hear played. What you are doing, having the music dictate the technique is far harder. Most people playing at those tempos are letting the technique dictate the music (which is sometimes a necessary evil when you want to hit a line that fast).

Are you having sucess playing simple chromatic lines 4nps around 190? I would guess you are able to do that.

The real problem is 3nps (which requires pick direction changes) across multiple strings. 170 is about as fast as that gets reliably. Even 160 is very fast for that.

If you can do both of the above, and still desire more speed, investigate alternative solutions. I recommend (what I call, I've never seen this method in any pedagogical material, though I highly doubt I'm the first to come up with it) the Pick/Slur technique.

On three notes on a string situations, use

down, up, hammer on.

It's a very slick solution once you can get your hammered notes similar to your picked notes.

Best wishes!!!

[jzucker]

Thanks for the thoughtful posting. I can play 4nps at 190 but not relaxed. A better test for me is the standard blues scale. I can play them cleanly up to about 170bpm. I can do 180 but only a few times through. I'm striving for being able to do 180-190 playing a blues scale up and down, moving down a 1/2 step and continuing all the way from 15th to 1st position and back. When I can do that and stay relaxed and in the groove, I think I'll be able to do some of the bursts that I hear eric johnson doing. The thing about chops (and you know because you have them in abundance) is that you don't have chops just to play fast. You have chops to be able to execute things cleanly - regardless of tempo or speed - and as I said, I really love the way coltrane and brecker and berg played bursts of notes at tempos in excess of 1/16 notes at 200 in bursts or flutters that sounded like a hummingbird's wings.

There are a handful of guitarists that can do that kind of stuff and still maintain some harmonic texture. Gambale, Tim Miller, Holdsworth, Eric Johnson and a few others. I'm just trying to refactor my playing into something a little different from what I've been doing for 40+ years.

The folks who couldn't hear the changes in your playing are the ones who need the work. I could follow the whole thing just fine.


The alternate picking you're doing there is on a completely different level of difficulty than the fast patterns that you typically hear played. What you are doing, having the music dictate the technique is far harder. Most people playing at those tempos are letting the technique dictate the music (which is sometimes a necessary evil when you want to hit a line that fast).

Are you having sucess playing simple chromatic lines 4nps around 190? I would guess you are able to do that.

The real problem is 3nps (which requires pick direction changes) across multiple strings. 170 is about as fast as that gets reliably. Even 160 is very fast for that.

If you can do both of the above, and still desire more speed, investigate alternative solutions. I recommend (what I call, I've never seen this method in any pedagogical material, though I highly doubt I'm the first to come up with it) the Pick/Slur technique.

On three notes on a string situations, use

down, up, hammer on.

It's a very slick solution once you can get your hammered notes similar to your picked notes.

Best wishes!!!

[vintagelove]

Thanks for the thoughtful posting. I can play 4nps at 190 but not relaxed. A better test for me is the standard blues scale. I can play them cleanly up to about 170bpm. I can do 180 but only a few times through. I'm striving for being able to do 180-190 playing a blues scale up and down, moving down a 1/2 step and continuing all the way from 15th to 1st position and back. When I can do that and stay relaxed and in the groove, I think I'll be able to do some of the bursts that I hear eric johnson doing. The thing about chops (and you know because you have them in abundance) is that you don't have chops just to play fast. You have chops to be able to execute things cleanly - regardless of tempo or speed - and as I said, I really love the way coltrane and brecker and berg played bursts of notes at tempos in excess of 1/16 notes at 200 in bursts or flutters that sounded like a hummingbird's wings.

There are a handful of guitarists that can do that kind of stuff and still maintain some harmonic texture. Gambale, Tim Miller, Holdsworth, Eric Johnson and a few others. I'm just trying to refactor my playing into something a little different from what I've been doing for 40+ years.

You are 10000% spot on in everything in this post.


Your goal is a pretty hard one, but why not shoot for the stars, right?

My only "quibble", (and it could be totally personal to me, and what I excel or struggle with). FOR ME, I worry more about starting and stoping cleanly, rather than long endurance practice. Because for me, once I'm going, it's easy to keep going (within reason). You will obviously know what you are best at, and what you want to improve.

Take care!!!


P.S. Perhaps this will help your 4nps to become more relaxed. Being that you are relaxed playing the blues scale pattern. Try double picking each note. This way your totally focusing on the picking hand, letting the subconscious "take over" the fretting hand, while being as relaxed as possible.

Of course, this does not sync the hands for true 4NPS playing. For that I use 3nps scales with an added chromatic passing tone (CPT) on each string. The way the CPT falls on each string is pretty amazingly musical. 1st position for example adds #9 b13 b9 #11 b7 #9 (which resolves to the 3rd).

[jzucker]

Thanks for the kind words. It was really a surreal experience in 2007 when I posted this. I had come off major spinal surgery and had to re-learn how to play from the elbow because my wrist could no longer do the things I used to do (and still can't) and I was feeling proud of what I had accomplished and then a slew of negativity from both here and rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz spewed forth with comments such as "mindless shredding", "not making the changes", "if jazz goes in this direction I'm no longer interested", etc. It was very disheartening.

To my ears, its in the same vein as some Sonny Stitt solos I have heard. There are melodic portions, there is some repetition of motifs, maybe in different keys as the chords change, and there are lines both ascending and descending.

I don't want to hijack your thread so I am going to start another on a topic your thread has reconjured in my mind.

[jzucker]

You are 10000% spot on in everything in this post.


Your goal is a pretty hard one, but why not shoot for the stars, right?

My only "quibble", (and it could be totally personal to me, and what I excel or struggle with). FOR ME, I worry more about starting and stoping cleanly, rather than long endurance practice. Because for me, once I'm going, it's easy to keep going (within reason). You will obviously know what you are best at, and what you want to improve.

Take care!!!

Thanks. It'll be interesting as we both pursue this goal.

[dingusmingus]

Thanks for the kind words. It was really a surreal experience in 2007 when I posted this. I had come off major spinal surgery and had to re-learn how to play from the elbow because my wrist could no longer do the things I used to do (and still can't) and I was feeling proud of what I had accomplished and then a slew of negativity from both here and rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz spewed forth with comments such as "mindless shredding", "not making the changes", "if jazz goes in this direction I'm no longer interested", etc. It was very disheartening.

Yeah, that is weird. My ears aren't yet where I want to be, but i could definitely hear changes clearly.

As you know, Jack, some people listen from a place of fear--when they can't do what they're hearing someone else do, they react negatively, or even lash out. Really appreciating what someone else can do without comparing yourself is a struggle for many of us, including me. Someone who's really pushing the boundaries of technique is going to hear even more of that.

[mr. beaumont]

Armchair quarterbacks.

That reaction to that video really surprises me though, because, yeah, there's some fast stuff, but the phrases are great. It's not an endless barrage of notes...

And remember folks...sometimes an endless barrage of notes IS the right choice...all depends...

[Reg]

Ya Jack... keep doin your thing.

And the spelling changes is really just the learning process... right. At some point you begin play what you want over, around and under the changes.
I'm very glad to see you around again and have always appreciated your very organized approach to playing jazz on the guitar.
Never really knew the wrist and elbow story. Yea, you've really developed great feel, and I understand how difficult that can be playing from the arm... tempo and tighten up thing. If I've said any negative comments... well, I apologize. I don't really know if I ever did...
Reg

[kris]

[Al_F]

Hello Jack,

Very novice question, so your goal is to play the blues scale with strict alternate picking at 200bpm, this means the pick always changes direction, and no legato at all, right?

If you don't mind, what kind of practice approach will you take, and how long will work on this each session?

Thank you.

[jzucker]

Yes, pick always changes direction. So if you start with with a downstroke and play 2 notes per string and 3 notes on the top and bottom strings as you change direction, you are technically using economy picking. However, I also practice it starting on an upstroke to flip things around because when you are in the heat of improvisation, you can't predict which direction your pick might be in.

My practice session for this starts after about an hour of other practicing.

i.e. i'm already warmed up.

I think set the metronome on 150 and play 16th notes of blues scales up and down the neck chromatically without stop from 15th fret downto 1st fret and back.

I then bump the metronome up to 160 and repeat.

I then bump up to 180. At this point with my current technique I cannot play the whole exercise continuously without losing it. So I then slow it down and repeat the exercise at the highest speed that I can play continuously. Usually 170ish.

I've noticed a pretty good increase after only a couple weeks of practicing so I'm hopeful it'll get better.

Then additionally, i spend some time playing lines "around" the blues scale and integrating them into the ability to go up or down at full speed with the entire scale from low note of the particular key to high note of the particular key. Eventually, this will allow it to become fully integrated into my playing.

All total, i'm spending about 15-25 minutes a day on this out of a total 2.5-4 hours a day of (other) practice.

Hello Jack,

Very novice question, so your goal is to play the blues scale with strict alternate picking at 200bpm, this means the pick always changes direction, and no legato at all, right?

If you don't mind, what kind of practice approach will you take, and how long will work on this each session?

Thank you.

[reventlov]

Like when I posted this clip in 2007. Folks on this forum were literally laughing at this and making fun of it and saying I wasn't making the changes and that I was just playing mindless shredding. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I'm just glad I continued on my own path and didn't pay too much attention to what the masses said was and wasn't jazz.

I can't imagine that the negative responses you got from posting this were due to anything other than jealousy. I haven't seen the clip before and for what it's worth, I think it's tremendous playing - very high standard both technically and musically, and I was able to follow the changes fairly easily on the first listen. I love that you set the bar high in your goals; that attitude is how progress is made not just in jazz guitar playing but in life in general.

[Al_F]

Thanks again, appreciate the detail, very helpful.

[jads57]

I think most of us wish we had the chops John McGlaughlin, Pat Martino, even George Benson,Pat Metheny possess. But the thing about players of that caliber is they make it SWING at every tempo! That's the chops I'd like to have.

[kris]

I think most of us wish we had the chops John McGlaughlin, Pat Martino, even George Benson,Pat Metheny possess. But the thing about players of that caliber is they make it SWING at every tempo! That's the chops I'd like to have.

are you shure?:-)

[Vladan]

A great fusion player like Guthrie Govan can play Donna Lee at 160 or higher (as 16ths) in his sleep, but when it came to blowing on it, he sounded more like a shredding country player than a jazz player on the you tube video someone put up.

As far as I can remember, my impression was, he started it as (pretending to be, for his students) "spontaneous joke", followed by what was some amazing jazz playing with couple of, if I may comment on a great player like he truly is, couple of timing issues, when at one moment he switched to bridge PU and changed technique to hybrid/ finger picking country style, quite deliberately going for country sound in order to end in a manner he started, i.e. with some comical effect.