That Benson Thing - Inside Picking

[JazzMac251]

Do you guys think he does any inside picking at all? I've been working my @ss off to switch my technique and string crossing via inside picking really seems to be a stumbling block. My working theory is that he just constructs his lines to avoid inside picking almost entirely. I've been watching a ton of slowed down videos of Benson play and it seems like I may be on to something. It's really hard to tell, though. It may be confirmation bias on my part.

Would love to hear other opinions.

[cosmic gumbo]

Inside picking?

[Groyniad]

i think this is a huge topic

i suspect that you are spot on

2 issues:

every string change is a downstroke at all vaguely normal tempos (including pretty damn high ones)

in blinding fast passages i think he does as you say - he makes sure that his pick is always in the right place to make string changes super-fast (so heading down to the floor for ascending lines and up towards his chin on descending lines)

this TOTALLY does my head in

because the amount of pre-preparation and 'construction' going on just seems to me too heavy - too antithetical to the chilled out spirit of improvisation man

yes - its doing my head in

and welcome to the forum - great first post....

[MarkRhodes]

Inside picking?

A handy diagram showing the difference is here:
Inside and outside picking - Music Discipline

[christianm77]

i think this is a huge topic

i suspect that you are spot on

2 issues:

every string change is a downstroke at all vaguely normal tempos (including pretty damn high ones)

in blinding fast passages i think he does as you say - he makes sure that his pick is always in the right place to make string changes super-fast (so heading down to the floor for ascending lines and up towards his chin on descending lines)

this TOTALLY does my head in

because the amount of pre-preparation and 'construction' going on just seems to me too heavy - too antithetical to the chilled out spirit of improvisation man

yes - its doing my head in

and welcome to the forum - great first post....

As a gypsy picker with same basic rules, I don't worry about pre-constructing lines. Obviously I have licks and preferred fingerings, but TBH I practice my scales with with careful attention to technique and when it comes to more complex musical material it seems to sort itself out. Bop heads are a good roast for this...

There are only a limited number of combinations technically. Any number of notes a string is fine going down towards the floor. Odd numbers of notes a string going towards your chin are more difficult, but if you can play seventh arpeggios up and down in all the main shapes, all positional major scales and chromatic scales going across the strings, you will have encountered all of the right hand funny business you will ever face.

Inside picking is much harder than outside picking to a downward pick-slanter (GJ and straight up Benson picking) because you need to shift the position of you right hand inwards. It's doable, but it disturbs the position of the picking hand. Fine for maybe one up stroke, but for more than that very awkward.

GJ picking then is a natural and logical extension of the way the pick is held. It's not a set of 'picking rules' imposed artificially (took me a few years to get that.)

If your pick has enough 'angle' to escape the plain of the strings on the upstroke outside picking isn't too bad. It will never be as fast as ascending scales and arpeggios etc, but it's easier than you'd think.

The problems I have are keeping descending scales with odd numbers of notes a string etc rhythmically even. Arps are actually OK.

Pick grip aside, Benson picking is similar to Gypsy picking in this regard.

But - Benson picking, I would say from my explorations so far, is easier and more flexible than GJ picking. Upstrokes and upsweeps are in fact available when you need them with a subtle adjustment in hand position because you actively assisted by the way the pick fills the gap between the strings and slices across the strings, so you can cheat stuff if you want. I am moving over to playing electric gigs using GB picking and so far it works like a charm.

GB might avoid these combinations, but they are up for grabs if you need them.

[Frank67]

... At least to me, I may do it wrong, the Benson grip feels much weaker than the GJ grip and hence the latter has much more volume on an acoustic, right? On an electric that may actually be just a good thing to touch the strings more gently. I tend to pick quite hard (unfortunately, I guess) and frequently loose the pick or have it shifting with the Benson grip. Anybody else?

i am with you concerning the evenness of descending scales with an odd number of notes. Perhaps one rather shifts the hand then ... But I never went academic on that.

[Reg]

Yea... you need both inside and out... inside becomes natural with the use of flexible pick angle. The pick shouldn't become fixed... unless you choose for it to.

[christianm77]

... At least to me, I may do it wrong, the Benson grip feels much weaker than the GJ grip and hence the latter has much more volume on an acoustic, right? On an electric that may actually be just a good thing to touch the strings more gently. I tend to pick quite hard (unfortunately, I guess) and frequently loose the pick or have it shifting with the Benson grip. Anybody else?

i am with you concerning the evenness of descending scales with an odd number of notes. Perhaps one rather shifts the hand then ... But I never went academic on that.

Not sure - I think it depends on how hard you grip the pick. Straight up GB picking, as I understand it, has a very firm pick grip between index finger and thumb, and the hand is to some extent locked up while the wrist is still free to move.

GJ picking can be extremely loose. Stochello Rosenberg's pick technique - apparently - has the pick almost falling out his fingers. My pick grip has got a lot more relaxed as I have worked on my Gypsy right hand.

I like a loose right hand grip for GB picking with my middle finger supporting the pick as well. This is the way I used to pick before getting into acoustic, and I notice that Kurt and Pat Metheny do the same sort of thing (although they aren't trailing edge pickers like GB)

I'm sure purist GB pickers would regard that as an abomination, but I like the softer tone on electric.

[Groyniad]

As a gypsy picker with same basic rules, I don't worry about pre-constructing lines. Obviously I have licks and preferred fingerings, but TBH I practice my scales with with careful attention to technique and when it comes to more complex musical material it seems to sort itself out. Bop heads are a good roast for this...

There are only a limited number of combinations technically. Any number of notes a string is fine going down towards the floor. Odd numbers of notes a string going towards your chin are more difficult, but if you can play seventh arpeggios up and down in all the main shapes, all positional major scales and chromatic scales going across the strings, you will have encountered all of the right hand funny business you will ever face.

Inside picking is much harder than outside picking to a downward pick-slanter (GJ and straight up Benson picking) because you need to shift the position of you right hand inwards. It's doable, but it disturbs the position of the picking hand. Fine for maybe one up stroke, but for more than that very awkward.

GJ picking then is a natural and logical extension of the way the pick is held. It's not a set of 'picking rules' imposed artificially (took me a few years to get that.)

If your pick has enough 'angle' to escape the plain of the strings on the upstroke outside picking isn't too bad. It will never be as fast as ascending scales and arpeggios etc, but it's easier than you'd think.

The problems I have are keeping descending scales with odd numbers of notes a string etc rhythmically even. Arps are actually OK.

Pick grip aside, Benson picking is similar to Gypsy picking in this regard.

But - Benson picking, I would say from my explorations so far, is easier and more flexible than GJ picking. Upstrokes and upsweeps are in fact available when you need them with a subtle adjustment in hand position because you actively assisted by the way the pick fills the gap between the strings and slices across the strings, so you can cheat stuff if you want. I am moving over to playing electric gigs using GB picking and so far it works like a charm.

GB might avoid these combinations, but they are up for grabs if you need them.

this is a really helpful post - i'll need to look at it very carefully - thanks!

i noticed a long time ago that it doesn't much matter which direction the pick is moving in for ascending lines (pick moving towards the floor) - but the trouble comes when i need to change strings on a descending line (pick moving towards chin) - but my last pick stroke has been a downstroke. in those situations my pick is trapped behind a string it has to get over in order to get to the target string.

i hate this - and i'm freaking out about how much major surgery my left hand fingerings are going to have to undergo in order to make sure this doesn't happen.

i just re-did all my left hand fingerings (and posted on the topic) - with fluency as the primary objective (not ease of visualization or memorization) - but when i did all that work i was lamentably ignorant about this huge topic.

i really like the sensible seeming advice you give here.

but still

shiiiiiiiiiit

[JazzMac251]

Thanks for all the great responses, guys. I actually have noticed the similarities between gypsy picking and the GB thing. It makes sense given that he cites Django as one of his influences.

The issue for me is that my concept of how to navigate the fretboard is based off of 3-note-per-string scales and traditional vertical arpeggio shapes. When I sit down to warm up or practice, that's what naturally comes out. I'm starting to realize that stuff is basically antithetical to Benson's approach, which explains why I've had so much trouble sounding like him.

I think the GB approach can be characterized as improvised lines built upon the foundation of pentatonic scales, 4-note-per-string scales, 2-note-per-string arpeggios, sweeps, and chromatic passing tones - all of which are used in tandem to completely eliminate inside picking in moving lines (of course anything at a slower tempo doesn't matter). It's going to take a WHILE to internalize all that to the point where it's intuitive.

I have a buddy that sounds just like Benson that DOES use 3-note-per-string scales. Of course ascending is fine, but descending I've seen him go UP DOWN UP, UP DOWN UP, UP DOWN UP, etc. That's kinda weird, but if the tempo isn't burnin' you can get the accents to sound cool.

Basically, I think the key to fluid up tempo lines is completely eliminating inside picking.

[MarkRhodes]

. I tend to pick quite hard (unfortunately, I guess) and frequently loose the pick or have it shifting with the Benson grip. Anybody else?

.

I never was one to drop a pick but I had a hard time keeping them from "turning around" while playing. For me, Monster Grips (-silicone dots pressed onto the pick) fixed that. Also, refining the angle at which I hold the pick.

[Reg]

Blue notes... not pentatonic . Rock players don't have the same sound

[christianm77]

Blue notes... not pentatonic . Rock players don't have the same sound

Eh?

[Reg]

GB uses patterns that set up Blue notes

[MarkRhodes]

GB uses patterns that set up Blue notes

Reg, could you give us an example? I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here.

[Reg]

I was trying to imply... GB doesn't get sound from using pentatonic patterns... the pattern is result of using blue notes, which is huge part of GB sound.

[destinytot]

I (honestly) hear Reg @2mins:

[whiskey02]

Damn, there must be something about playing guitar with a French cuffed shirt! Thanks George and Wes, I'm headed to Brooks Bros.

[petercrane]

I think you are right. Stay with it - I know I am.