(Economy) Picking advice

[jzucker]

Economy picking guide


I was asked offline about some tips for economy picking and picking in general. I thought I'd share my thoughts publicly...

Economy picking is when you are utilizing upstrokes and downstrokes according to the direction of the next string.


The most efficient way to utilize this technique is to construct your lines such that when going in a single direction - i.e. ascending - you use an odd number of notes per string. Then when changing directions, you use an even number of notes per string. This facilitates directional picking in its most efficient form.


There are all kinds of variations here so this is a rule of thumb, not a hard and fast rule. For example, you can combine slurs with directional picking, or you can combine pick and fingers or you can ignore the rigidity of the 3 notes per string and simply always use the pick direction according to the position of the next string. (This is what Joe Pass did).


Another issue here is getting your upstrokes and downstrokes to sound even in terms of attack and volume. This principal is agnostic to economy vs. alternate picking but it's an important one. Much has been written on the fact that gravity and the size of your thumb backing the pick makes the downstroke sound so much stronger. It's naturally harder to get the upstroke to sound as full because you are fighting gravity as well as a smaller surface gripping the pick. Again, there is no hard and fast rule but what I recommend is practicing alternate picking but varying whether you start with an upstroke or a downstroke. This was something that Pat Martino advocated in my studies with him. You will find that at first, starting a line with the upstroke results in a thin and wimpy attack as well as lower volume. By concentrating on practicing this, you will gradually build up the ability to not only even out your upstrokes and downstrokes , but also gain the ability to accent notes at will, regardless of where they fall on the beat or within an upstroke/downstroke paradigm.

[Groyniad]

very helpful stuff here - thanks!

i was most interested in what you said about JP.

this is a huge issue for guitar. its right up there with knowing what flippin' notes to play.

i'm using a picking method that emphasizes downstrokes more than the method you say JP used. Every string change is a downstroke - except for very quick passages. This method is - in part - a kind of application of a wes-type thumb technique to the pick (courtesy of GB).

but i find myself tempted to abandon it for a more 'directional' approach. having said that, i think it may just be a tempo issue - because the GB method i'm using does use directional picking at high speeds.

i think GB and others can use the downstroke-heavy thumb-style picking method even at very high tempos - and that people like me might find that the more directional approach really helps even at merely cheerful tempos (200 and up).

i think that having to accommodate pick direction very carefully indeed to play fluidly at bright tempos is a massive part of the challenge of jazz guitar. i mean how do you nail all that stuff down and still play freshly - or with a strong emphasis on improvisation? i've been at this for a long time - and i'm only now really reconciling myself to the fact that i have to nail down all the string changes and the blinkin' pick directions!!!!

you have to musically digest so many ideas all of which are fingered so as to optimize string change speed/fluidity - before you can spontaneously compose using - among other things no doubt - these ideas.

i played classical flute as a youngster and the 'phrasing' (patterning of 'tongued' and slurred transitions between notes) was always so utterly intuitive. i would work on it and fix it - deciding what worked best etc. - but i could try different phrasing patterns at will with zero extra work required (for the most part).

but failure to secure these string changes - to get the pick directions right - is the basic reason i'm still fighting with fluid phrasing above 220.

[jzucker]

excellent posting groyniad! A couple thoughts...Regarding the economy approach as it relates to creativity and spontaneity, I have found that after years of practice, it becomes second nature to express myself in ways - using economy picking - that would just be impossible when done with alternate picking. And, the directional picking yields a rhythmically agnostic pulse which gives the feel of a sax player blowing a single breath and fingering multiple notes. For this same reason, I'm not particularly fond of the feel of economy picking at medium tempo when playing 8th notes locked into a swing feel. I don't feel that it's the best way to express a groove. That's just my personal preference though.

Therefore, to me, alternate picking is still the bread and butter of my playing but I can turn on or off the economy picking based on what I want the line to sound like.

[Groyniad]

again - really interesting that you feel that there's a mismatch between swung medium tempo 8ths and the economy or directional method.

that fits perfectly with the GB based stuff i'm doing.

[MarkRhodes]

Another issue here is getting your upstrokes and downstrokes to sound even in terms of attack and volume. This principal is agnostic to economy vs. alternate picking but it's an important one. Much has been written on the fact that gravity and the size of your thumb backing the pick makes the downstroke sound so much stronger. It's naturally harder to get the upstroke to sound as full because you are fighting gravity as well as a smaller surface gripping the pick. .

Thanks for posting on this, Jack. This is what I'm working on lately.

Are you thinking here of picking from the wrist or elbow? (Does that make any difference?)


I realized that my upstrokes were more erratic than my downstrokes----several days of work on that have evened them out and improved things a great deal. I had never focused on upstrokes before and their comparative volume with downstrokes. (In retrospect, this was mentioned in a book on picking I read but I raced past it---mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.)

[jzucker]

again - really interesting that you feel that there's a mismatch between swung medium tempo 8ths and the economy or directional method.

that fits perfectly with the GB based stuff i'm doing.

I definitely think it's tempo oriented. Tim Miller confirmed this in a conversation I had with him recently on doing the 2-1-2-1 arpeggios. Tim plays these with hybrid ascending but economy descending. I asked him why he didn't use the same technique in both directions and among other things, he mentioned that he changes things up with the tempo. At slower tempos, he alternate picks them!

Thanks for posting on this, Jack. This is what I'm working on lately.

Are you thinking here of picking from the wrist or elbow? (Does that make any difference?)


I realized that my upstrokes were more erratic than my downstrokes----several days of work on that have evened them out and improved things a great deal. I had never focused on upstrokes before and their comparative volume with downstrokes. (In retrospect, this was mentioned in a book on picking I read but I raced past it---mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.)

When I studied with Dennis Sandole, he advocated picking from the elbow but IMO, that's a mistake. Elbow picking has a more stiff feel and it's harder to deal with the intricacies of grooving and plain doesn't work for playing certain types of samba or funk rhythm feels. I pick from the elbow due to permanent muscle weakness in my right bicep due to a spinal injury but I would not recommend it to anyone else. However, I think it's possible to get a great and even feel no matter how you play (pick, fingers, hybrid, economy, elbow, wrist, circle-picking, etc)

[jzucker]

also don't forget to practice stuff in all up-strokes. Have you seen the picking etude I wrote? It's really helpful ...


http://www.sheetsofsound.net/pdf/611.pdf

[MarkRhodes]

Therefore, to me, alternate picking is still the bread and butter of my playing but I can turn on or off the economy picking based on what I want the line to sound like.

That's interesting, Jack. I didn't think one could switch that easily from one to the other and back. I guess when one has mastered both...

[christianm77]

I think things have to be nailed down or 'chunked' to some extent at fast tempos. How fast that is I think depends on any things, including perhaps experience and training, but there will always be a cut off, I suspect.

For many guitarists there is a gear change between alternate picking and economy picking - alternate for moderate tempos, alternate for when the sh!t hits the fan. Adam Rogers states this of his playing in his latest video.

Incidentally he uses Benson picking but practices alternating which is interesting given GB picking is generally considered to encourage a down stroke heavy style similar to rest stroke picking.... You can clearly see him doing a lot of two way pick slanting as Troy Grady calls it... He also points out that sweeping is hard to control at certain speeds....

[jzucker]

not sure what you mean by "nailed down or chunked".

But I can play 8th notes at 330bpm and improvise pretty freely but yes, when a percussive instrument and with picking most of the notes, I suspect 8ths at 330-350bpm is about the limit. Faster if you play legato style.

Frank Gambale is an example of a player that doesn't have a gear shift. He plays freely with alternate and/or economy picking but his left hand approach is *RADICALLY* different than almost anyone else I've ever seen.

It's too bad he rarely covers this type of thing in any type of online methodology. A couple of his books hint at it but don't cover it in detail and much of his instructional material seems to be predicated towards metal/speed playing and very little about left hand approach.

[christianm77]

not sure what you mean by "nailed down or chunked".

But I can play 8th notes at 330bpm and improvise pretty freely but yes, when a percussive instrument and with picking most of the notes, I suspect 8ths at 330-350bpm is about the limit. Faster if you play legato style.

Frank Gambale is an example of a player that doesn't have a gear shift. He plays freely with alternate and/or economy picking but his left hand approach is *RADICALLY* different than almost anyone else I've ever seen.

It's too bad he rarely covers this type of thing in any type of online methodology. A couple of his books hint at it but don't cover it in detail and much of his instructional material seems to be predicated towards metal/speed playing and very little about left hand approach.

Well, I mean improvising in terms of pre-defined chunks rather than note by note.... Adam Rogers (again haha) put it 'anything you play fast you will have played before.'

By chunking, I mean - I daresay when you improvise in 8ths at 330 you are probably not improvising from note to note but rather 'bolting together' chunks that you have worked on before. At least that's what I do as the tempo gets hotter - perhaps it works differently for you.

[MarkRhodes]

also don't forget to practice stuff in all up-strokes. Have you seen the picking etude I wrote? It's really helpful ...


http://www.sheetsofsound.net/pdf/611.pdf

Thanks, Jack. I hadn't seen that. I've been doing the all-upstroke thing this week. (Not all the time.) It started with doing some exercises that were all downstrokes. Then I switched, to see what it was like, and that's when I discovered how erratic my upstrokes could be. (It's not as apparent when one is alternate picking.)

By the way, when you (Jack) make a downstroke, do you carry through to the next string (-what is called a rest stroke)? There is no upstroke equivalent of that, is there?

[christianm77]

Thanks, Jack. I hadn't seen that. I've been doing the all-upstroke thing this week. (Not all the time.) It started with doing some exercises that were all downstrokes. Then I switched, to see what it was like, and that's when I discovered how erratic my upstrokes could be. (It's not as apparent when one is alternate picking.)

By the way, when you (Jack) make a downstroke, do you carry through to the next string (-what is called a rest stroke)? There is no upstroke equivalent of that, is there?

There is if you change the angle of your pick.

[sgcim]

I definitely think it's tempo oriented. Tim Miller confirmed this in a conversation I had with him recently on doing the 2-1-2-1 arpeggios. Tim plays these with hybrid ascending but economy descending. I asked him why he didn't use the same technique in both directions and among other things, he mentioned that he changes things up with the tempo. At slower tempos, he alternate picks them!



When I studied with Dennis Sandole, he advocated picking from the elbow but IMO, that's a mistake. Elbow picking has a more stiff feel and it's harder to deal with the intricacies of grooving and plain doesn't work for playing certain types of samba or funk rhythm feels. I pick from the elbow due to permanent muscle weakness in my right bicep due to a spinal injury but I would not recommend it to anyone else. However, I think it's possible to get a great and even feel no matter how you play (pick, fingers, hybrid, economy, elbow, wrist, circle-picking, etc)

One way I've recently found of reducing any muscle issues when picking from the elbow at faster speeds (above 288bpm) is to pick where there's less resistance on the strings, over the pickup or even in front of the pickup.
I observed Tony DeCaprio (also an elbow picker who studied with Dennis Sandole) doing this on a recent video of him playing a jazz trio gig in Europe. Tony also played in the funk/jazz band Chase, so he seems to have found a way of dealing with the intricacies of grooving and funk rhythm feels, while still being an elbow player

That's fascinating that Martino told you to practice starting with up strokes, Thanks for mentioning that. I started doing that a couple of years ago based on Jimmy Bruno and Jack Grassell's advice in stuff that they've written.

I haven't come to terms yet with non-arp economy picking.

[jzucker]

regarding funk, just spend a few minutes trying to play a loose funky, james brown rhythm. Try it from the elbow and then try it again from the wrist. The difference is night and day. It's one reason I don't advise playing from the elbow unless you know you'll never have to play that kind of rhythm. When I play funk, I use my wrist as much as possible. It's just that I don't have the control that I want.

Try playing this kind of relaxed funk groove with your elbow for example...Ain't gonna happen!

[MarkRhodes]

There is if you change the angle of your pick.

You mean some people play upstrokes that carry through and come to rest (however briefly) on the string above in the same way that many people play downstrokes that carry through and come to rest on the string below? Huh. Never heard of that but then, I don't get around much anymore! ;o)

[Jehu]

Hey Mark, check out Rene Thomas:

It looks to me like he does a bit of that, particularly when he's sweeping through two or more strings.

Edit: Probably clearer examples in this one:

[christianm77]

You mean some people play upstrokes that carry through and come to rest (however briefly) on the string above in the same way that many people play downstrokes that carry through and come to rest on the string below? Huh. Never heard of that but then, I don't get around much anymore! ;o)

It does happen... It's rarer than the other way around. But there are players who (apparently) do this.

The two way pick slanting thing is about changing the angle of your pick to allow it to 'escape' the plane of the strings. If you play, for example, gypsy style, then this naturally happens on the upstroke. Here you have the angle of the pick so that is 'dragging' with the movement of the pick, as in sweeping.

This is why gypsy guys don't do upstrokes to start strings and upsweeps on arpeggios. It's not just that it is 'forbidden' - it's actually because that these combinations are actively awkward given the way we set up our right hands.

Now you flip it over as if you were doing an upsweep and it is then the downstroke that will escape the plane of the strings. Upward pickslanters play this way - Troy Grady gives a few examples, mostly rock players, but I can't remember who they are off the top of my head.

Another interesting thing is that when you film and slow down people's fast picking, they are very often playing rest strokes even if they don't realise it.

To do two way economy picking you need to master this movement, but that's fairly straightforward. Really good alternate pickers will be flipping between the two angles to manage tricky combinations like outside picking and string skips. In all likelyhood alternate guys will do this without realising it.

[christianm77]

Hey Mark, check out Rene Thomas:

It looks to me like he does a bit of that, particularly when he's sweeping through two or more strings.

Edit: Probably clearer examples in this one:

Yeah you can see him changing the angle of his hand slightly when he sweeps through strings. If you play up and down sweeps you will be doing this already. There is no way not to do it :-)

[jzucker]

Thanks, Jack. I hadn't seen that. I've been doing the all-upstroke thing this week. (Not all the time.) It started with doing some exercises that were all downstrokes. Then I switched, to see what it was like, and that's when I discovered how erratic my upstrokes could be. (It's not as apparent when one is alternate picking.)

By the way, when you (Jack) make a downstroke, do you carry through to the next string (-what is called a rest stroke)? There is no upstroke equivalent of that, is there?

Yes, you can rest-stroke on the upstrokes as well.

[jzucker]

Not sure this is universal and in fact, gambale makes a point to say you should use the same pick angle for both directions. Otherwise, you couldn't possibly play economy picking in situations where you are rapidly changing directions.

I do notice Tim Miller changes his angle during the demos of the 2-1-2-1 technique but then he's using hybrid picking ascending so I suspect his directional changes are somewhat different.

Really good alternate pickers will be flipping between the two angles to manage tricky combinations like outside picking and string skips. In all likelyhood alternate guys will do this without realising it.

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark, check out Rene Thomas:


It looks to me like he does a bit of that, particularly when he's sweeping through two or more strings.

Yes, sweeping carries through. I'm talking about single upstrokes. Do people practice the upstroke---coming to rest on the string above---they way they practice downstrokes, carrying through and coming to rest on the string below? After thinking about this another moment, I have lost interest. The world is wide and full of people doing things in various ways. Perhaps lots of people do this. So be it. It's not something I wish to work on.

[jzucker]

Do people practice the upstroke---coming to rest on the string above---they way they practice downstrokes, carrying through and coming to rest on the string below?

Yes they do.

[MarkRhodes]

Yes they do.

Thanks, Jack. Good to know.

[christianm77]

Not sure this is universal and in fact, gambale makes a point to say you should use the same pick angle for both directions. Otherwise, you couldn't possibly play economy picking in situations where you are rapidly changing directions.

I do notice Tim Miller changes his angle during the demos of the 2-1-2-1 technique but then he's using hybrid picking ascending so I suspect his directional changes are somewhat different.

He may say this, but I bet this is not what he actually does at speed when he can't analyse it.

Although, that said, Frank probably can defeat the laws of physics.

The basic idea of Troy Grady's videos and why they are so different I think from the other material I have come across is that often the players themselves are the least qualified people to ask about their chops, because they just do it intuitively. Technically gifted players are often doing highly optimised and efficient movements without ever working on them consciously. The funniest one was Marty Friedman - 'I have no idea what you are saying. It sounds like Swahili.' In fact it turns out, Marty's actual technique, aside from his unusual pick grip, is identical to Gypsy picking.

I emailed him to ask if he could possibly do a video about Adam Roger's right hand... Not sure if that's on the slate, but it would be great. Adam's sound is my favourite of the modern guys, along with Julian Lage....

I think Troy filmed Gambale's right hand in detail... I will see if I can find a link to it.