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OK - it looks from first glance that Gambale is primarily a downward pickslanter ala Django, GB, Yngwie etc who changes the pick position with his thumb to angle it better for upsweeps when required.
You can clearly see the direction change in the way he holds the pick at 0:40. He may think he is holding the pick straight but he is not.
I'm looking forward to the Pat Martino and Joscho Stephans videos...
BTW - I would love to know how Pat Metheny's right hand actually works.....
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02-24-2016 11:35 AM
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Hey Jack, when you say Gambale's left hand approach is different, how exactly do you mean? Is is a question of fingering choices or something?
By the way, I just ordered Sheets of Sound yesterday and am really excited to dig into it!
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I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I do see a single change of direction but the slow mo clearly shows him sweeping up and down with the pick at the same angle. The angle change you are seeing is him changing the rotation angle of the pick, not the upward/downward slant
Originally Posted by christianm77
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and anyway, there's no way you can continually change the angle when doing symmetrical pattern picking where you are continually changing string direction. You just can't do it. So advising people to change the angle when they sweep is bad advice IMO.
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I would like to see a debate between you and Troy Grady as you have both thought about technique an awful lot. I'm sure once the basic terminology was set a lot of interesting stuff would come out. Originally Posted by jzucker
It's hard to talk about these thing in plain English (part of the reason why Tuck Andress's article is so wordy.) If I follow you correctly, you are saying that Frank is altering the angle with which the pick meets the strings, rather than the slant of the plane of the pick compared to the normal (perpendicular) of the plane of the strings?
Crikey, that was a remarkably ugly sentence. I hope it makes some sort of sense.
If so, I kind of see what you mean. But on the downstroke it does very much appear that the pick is trailing the movement of the sweep.
I quite consciously use a downward pick slant in my own playing and I find it extremely useful for the type of picking I do. (But I use very few upsweeps although with Benson picking, I find them extremely natural - and crucially, I was using pick slanting before I'd ever heard of Troy Grady, just because that's what happens naturally.)
For two way economy picking or alternate picking I'm not so sure...
In practice I never have had to think about this stuff because I have always found economy picking to be pretty easy. But not everyone does and I am vaguely interested in establishing a pedagogy when students ask me about this stuff.
I'm also aware that there is a difference between how something feels to practice and how it actually works. You want to teach the student to drive the car rather than know how the engine works....Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2016 at 05:02 PM.
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It's a bit tangential, but if you watch the first few minutes of my video - compare the heavy downward slant of the pick in the Gypsy picking example to the angle in the Benson picking example. Only just noticed.... Angle of the pick increased in Benson picking... less overall picking slant. Relevant?
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i'd defer to troy since his technique is ridiculously good but yes, I think we're talking two different planes of angles.
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I generally change pick angle and rotation so I don't loose feel when playing up tempo.
It's different when playing steady 16th notes as compared to playing broken rhythmic lines.
That funk video earlier... really
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Doesn't really have the sound and feel of benson's picking.
Here's a guy who really has the benson picking nailed...
Christian, one thing I think you're a bit awry on is that benson uses alternate picking for the most part unless he's doing arpeggiated material and you can hear that in dan's playing as well. For linear lines, he's alternate picking but on arpeggios and pure cross string material he's using economy picking.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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I have heard that Benson uses gypsy picking patterns essentially, elsewhere on these forums. *shrugs* - I don't want to get into an advanced discussion of GB's style because I have little knowledge of this area. I'm also absolutely not interested in emulating GB's style great though it is. Originally Posted by jzucker
What I have found is this pick position allows me to pick any way I want - soft electric style picking using alternate, economy whatever you want (ala Adam Rogers) or heavy acoustic rest stroke picking ala (ala Sebastien Giniaux.) GB is somewhere in the middle AFAIK.
I suppose you could say the same about traditional picking, but I find it much easier to switch with GB grip. I think it has something to do with the way it utilises the edge of the pick.Last edited by christianm77; 02-28-2016 at 10:51 PM.
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That's different than implying he uses economy picking. As I stated before, he uses economy picking on arpeggiated material where a single note occurs per string but he alternate picks most of his lines. Originally Posted by christianm77
I suggest taking a lesson with Dan Wilson who really has this stuff down and Dan's attack tone and feel are extremely similar to benson's so IMO, he's the best source for this type of stuff short of studying with Benson himself.
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Dan is a great player, no doubt. Benson's own recommendation, though, seems to be for Peter Farrell. Peter will be part of the George Benson Music Institute. Originally Posted by jzucker
George has said of Peter: “Peter is the genius of the fingering, and one of the most amazing guitar players nowadays and if someone wants to know anything about me, they will have to look for this guy.” George Benson
Peter Farrell ? George Benson Music Institute
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Thanks for the suggestions :-)
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Peter's great but doesn't have the benson style nailed as much as Dan Wilson IMO. And additionally, while he uses the benson grip, he plays from his elbow. Dan's tone and feel are much more like benson's IMO. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Note - I personally feel that you can arrive at the destination through multiple paths - i.e. it's not necessary to pick exactly like benson to achieve your goals unless your goal is to be a clone of benson.
Peter's playing is fantastic but his approach and feel are more modern than benson's and if we're talking about "benson picking" I think Dan Wilson has it down more than most folks I've heard. Another guy to take a listen to closely is Rodney Jones.Last edited by jzucker; 03-01-2016 at 10:00 AM.
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I just sent an email to Rodney Jones and Henry Johnson - both good friends with George - to clarify the picking specs...
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I'll be interested to hear what they say. My understanding is that they keep what George taught them pretty close to the vest. (Mark Stefani, who posts here as JazzOnSix, is a good friend of Henry Johnson's and Henry hasn't told him much beyond saying it has a lot more to do with the LEFT hand than most people realize.) Originally Posted by jzucker
But now that George Benson has opened the George Benson Music Institute, the cat may be coming out of the bag.
Jack, I very much agree with you that there is more than one path, especially if one is not seeking to sound like a Benson clone. As much as I admire George, I don't care to sound like him---I just want a right hand that works for me rather than against me! ;o)
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Just to point out - I am not interested in 'nailing Bensons style' at all (even if it were possible lol). No disrespect to him of course. He's not actually someone I listen to that much, although I think he is absolutely incredible like most guitarists with ears. :-)
I already have my approach to playing jazz, and while transcription etc. is always great, what I want a technique to do is to support what I already do, only better. GB's picking stance seems highly evolved, and I like several other players who use it.
I also like the very non-Benson, Adam Rogersy round tone I can get with it. That's the sound I hear for electric at least ATM.
Don't get me wrong, studying players is always an education.
But it's been like this before:
For example - I didn't learn Gypsy picking to play like Django. I learned Gypsy picking to project better on acoustic guitar. Some Django influence creeps in, perhaps, because of the way the right hand works, but I don't believe I am a particularly stylistic gypsy jazz player. I am a jazz guitarist who plays acoustic guitar, and does a lot of swing and GJ gigs. (And I have transcribed a few Django solos, sure.)
Might seem pedantic, but that is a big distinction for me.Last edited by christianm77; 03-01-2016 at 10:23 AM.
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Man, Dan Wilson can play!
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Yes, you've made that clear several times. My point is that it's not really benson-picking if you are using economy picking and your demonstration doesn't sound like benson picking. What you are demonstrating is the benson grip, not benson picking. IMO of course... Originally Posted by christianm77
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I don't think they hold it close to the vest at all. They've both been very open about discussing it from the discussions I've seen, students of theirs, etc. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Underhand grip or thumb in grip might be a better term in this case. Originally Posted by jzucker
In this would you say that Adam Rogers is not a benson picker? He just uses the thumb in approach without any direct influence from the benson school...
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Good question. And I guess it's easy to get caught up in micro-details. So in general, I think benson picking is probably more of the physical angle and attack and in that light I think your technique and Rogers is a benson picking example. However, neither you or rogers gets a benson attack and tone and I think in roger's case it's because he floats. You do too if I remember correctly. I think Rogers actually takes technique to a new and different level. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Great! Glad to know I was wrong about that. I wonder why they haven't (or have they?) put out a book on it? There's a lot of interest in the subject and they learned from the master, so who better to pass it along? I guess they have, student by student, eh? I think Sheryl Bailey studied with Rodney Jones. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Sheryl studied with bollenback who also uses the benson grip Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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and a book is a great idea but most of those guys are too busy I guess. I do know that until recently, benson was very hesitant to do any formal teaching, or real instructional videos because he believes jazz is a folk music and should be learned on the bandstand and not taught in lessons.
I wonder what's changed?
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