3 and 4 nps patterns

[DaveF]

Is it necessary to organise scales and arpeggios in 3 or 4 note-per-string patterns in order to play them evenly at very high tempos?

[yaclaus]

I'd say no. The ear should dictate what you're playing not the fretboard. Some things are easier one or another way so you can try and go for that. Look at videos with your favorite players and watch how they organize stuff. I was astounded to see how many of them primarily use 3 fingers.

When practicing I often play a line and explore all the technical ways of execution to find the easiest way. I used to think that it was cool if it was hard, now I try to simplify fingerings as much as possible.

(Of course you still need to know all your patterns )

[DaveF]

But the distance to cross strings is a lot more than playing the next note on the same string? I guess you just gotta be fast then

[yaclaus]

If you want to play Steve Vai, Guthrie Govan, Joe Satriani stuff I agree. They often play fast passages with many notes per string. Non, shredders don't need to take this method. And I think scale runs aren't the most pretty sequences anyway.


Take a look at this from 0.30. Tal is known for stretches and using all four fingers. However he crosses strings a lot!

[vintagelove]

Is it necessary to organise scales and arpeggios in 3 or 4 note-per-string patterns in order to play them evenly at very high tempos?

Its important to understand why those fingerings are better for playing fast than using "caged" or another approach.

Once you understand the mechanics of picking, you'll be better able to negotiate any combination of notes per string.

Long story short, Joe Pass and Yngwie actually pick in a very similar way, as do most of the greats. Check out avoiding outside picking, and the principals behind economy picking.


Good luck!!!

[christianm77]

Not really. The super fast optimised playing you need for shred is not really required for most your meat and potatoes jazz playing.

It's better to develop flexibility rather than patterns. See how many ways you can play a given line...

[vintagelove]

Not really. The super fast optimised playing you need for shred is not really required for most your meat and potatoes jazz playing.

It's better to develop flexibility rather than patterns. See how many ways you can play a given line...

Just pushing the conversation here...

Why can't someone be a flexible, meat and potatoes, non pattern based jazz player with 3/4nps fingerings?


I totally get what you're saying, but if you really objectively look at it, there are tons of advantages to the 7 position system. I'm convinced 9 out of 10 folks who dismiss it truly don't understand it. Same as economy picking (Joe Pass among other greats was predominantly an economy picker btw)...

[christianm77]

Just pushing the conversation here...

Why can't someone be a flexible, meat and potatoes, non pattern based jazz player with 3/4nps fingerings?

I totally get what you're saying, but if you really objectively look at it, there are tons of advantages to the 7 position system. I'm convinced 9 out of 10 folks who dismiss it truly don't understand it. Same as economy picking (Joe Pass among other greats was predominantly an economy picker btw)...

Learning seven positions up and down the neck is a good thing to do. I mean, to be fair I learned that stuff about 20 years ago (both conventional and 3 nps, with good classical left hand and lots of pinky action) when I was a sort of rock to jazz newbie, so maybe I am underestimating how important it is to sit down and shed that stuff for a few months.

If you haven't learned your major scale all 7 positions, do it now.

But 20 years on I tend to be much less 'correct' in my approach - I do this because I figure most of my favourite players don't even seem to use positions, they move up and down along the neck, diagonally across, all sorts of things, eschewing stretches and focusing on the flow.

So my philosophy is very much 'develop flexibility' and go by the sound.

Personally I wouldn't be prescriptive about fingering provided:

1) it was consistent
2) not obviously inefficient

I work on an if it broke don't fix approach with my students.

I'm not sure if this is a question that you are asking, but: Should you learn 4 fingered positional playing classical style? Well I can't say no, but I can't help feeling that it's not necessary to play jazz to do this.

As I say none of my favourite players look like they are using this school. Did some learn it? Maybe. Probably not Charlie Christian, Jim Mullen, Wes Montgomery, Django, Grant Green and Metheny. I know Dave Cliff didn't learn it. Maybe Peter Bernstien, Lage and Kurt did but they don't use it now.

Anyway - practice playing a phrase in multiple different positions and fingerings, by ear. You can use your fingering patterns if your brain works that way, but you can also do it in a purely ear based way. You will naturally come across some fingering combinations that feel real good and you can execute at high speed - that are enjoyable to play. Others will be awkward but may be worth persisting with to build technique.

This is why I like to learn bop heads by ear - I find playing bop in position (the way I learned to read) awkward and unpleasant, and I feel that filters into the music. I avoid stretches wherever possible, for example.

Playing the guitar should be fun!

Ultimately, if you want to practice scales (and you don't actually have to, here's another thing), I think you should practice scales in any combination you can think of. 2 notes, 3 notes, 4 notes, 5 notes, mixes of note numbers, along the length one string, using campanelas open string combinations ala Bill Frisell. Be creative...

My point is that to be an improviser other than a regurgitator of licks, you need to get used to playing things all over the neck and start linking positions together. If all you can do is shred scale patterns, you are going to have trouble playing jazz. Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with being able to do both.

[Nate Miller]

"Is it necessary to organise scales and arpeggios in 3 or 4 note-per-string patterns in order to play them evenly at very high tempos?"

absolutely not. It is not necessary at all. In fact, when I was in my early 20s, I tried to play that way and I honestly think it held me back.

What helped me was spending a couple years working on "cross picking" (is that the right term?) or playing arpeggios across the strings. Going from low to high is easy, but coming back from high to low needs some practice to keep the alternating picking under control

but when you can play both 3 or 4 notes a string or play across 3 or 4 strings one note per string, then a lot of real ideas start to open up for you.

Just watch Tal in that video up the thread. That's exactly what he's doing

[vintagelove]

Learning seven positions up and down the neck is a good thing to do. I mean, to be fair I learned that stuff about 20 years ago (both conventional and 3 nps, with good classical left hand and lots of pinky action) when I was a sort of rock to jazz newbie, so maybe I am underestimating how important it is to sit down and shed that stuff for a few months.

If you haven't learned your major scale all 7 positions, do it now.

But 20 years on I tend to be much less 'correct' in my approach - I do this because I figure most of my favourite players don't even seem to use positions, they move up and down along the neck, diagonally across, all sorts of things, eschewing stretches and focusing on the flow.

So my philosophy is very much 'develop flexibility' and go by the sound.

Personally I wouldn't be prescriptive about fingering provided:

1) it was consistent
2) not obviously inefficient

I work on an if it broke don't fix approach with my students.

I'm not sure if this is a question that you are asking, but: Should you learn 4 fingered positional playing classical style? Well I can't say no, but I can't help feeling that it's not necessary to play jazz to do this.

As I say none of my favourite players look like they are using this school. Did some learn it? Maybe. Probably not Charlie Christian, Jim Mullen, Wes Montgomery, Django, Grant Green and Metheny. I know Dave Cliff didn't learn it. Maybe Peter Bernstien, Lage and Kurt did but they don't use it now.

Anyway - practice playing a phrase in multiple different positions and fingerings, by ear. You can use your fingering patterns if your brain works that way, but you can also do it in a purely ear based way. You will naturally come across some fingering combinations that feel real good and you can execute at high speed - that are enjoyable to play. Others will be awkward but may be worth persisting with to build technique.

This is why I like to learn bop heads by ear - I find playing bop in position (the way I learned to read) awkward and unpleasant, and I feel that filters into the music. I avoid stretches wherever possible, for example.

Playing the guitar should be fun!

Ultimately, if you want to practice scales (and you don't actually have to, here's another thing), I think you should practice scales in any combination you can think of. 2 notes, 3 notes, 4 notes, 5 notes, mixes of note numbers, along the length one string, using campanelas open string combinations ala Bill Frisell. Be creative...

My point is that to be an improviser other than a regurgitator of licks, you need to get used to playing things all over the neck and start linking positions together. If all you can do is shred scale patterns, you are going to have trouble playing jazz. Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with being able to do both.

I agree with much of what you stated, however, it's a much different story for someone who has played for 20+ years, and someone just starting. Do you think you would have made all the little connections you have over the years without having studied all those different ways of playing the scales?

I make the point because a beginner who truly want to learn should seek out the most comprehensive method there is. If you start with the 7 position system, you end up with all the notes on the neck. What you do with it is another discussion...

[christianm77]

That's a question I ask somewhere in the body of that rather long reply.

Depends on the beginner. Not everyone approaches guitar like an engineering problem. But scales and technical exercises are a useful way to develop muscle memory, of course.

What type of beginner do you mean anyway? A beginner to jazz, or to the guitar? In the latter case I can see some strong advantages of learning the traditional way,.

But there are many out there who learned playing three fingers rock, and in a way I envy them.

I'm still open to changing the material I teach. I mostly teach Gypsy Jazz guitar anyway, so scales are of secondary importance. I'm not sure I would teach them to straightahead students at the start either. Chord tones and embellishments are more important at the early stages. I tend to slot my scales into the arpeggios really - pretty old school.

[Bobalou]

CAGED. It was good enough for Joe Pass, its good enough for me.

[princeplanet]

Let's say I have 32 bar fast and complex Bop head and provide Tab notation for the sake of being absolutely specific about where the notes are to be played. As well as that I provide exact information about the picking hand, up and down stokes, "swept" strokes, slurs, slides etc. Assume that it has been ergonomically worked out to playable in the most natural sounding way, ie, unforced.

Your probably thinking that the hand will be moving all over the place along the neck, as is often the case with guitar "ergonomics" Fine, let's say it does, and let's call that challenge #1.

Now provide a totally different challenge #2 where the notes are played moving to as few positional changes as possible, where the hand barely moves out of the position where most of the range of notes in the head exists. No Tab, no picking instructions. There will be awkward stretches, as well as awkward outside picking, the things we tried to avoid with the first Tab.

Which will sound more musical? Because that's the "right" answer to any challenge on the instrument, right? If it's easier than it's better. Well, I'd like to offer the idea that it's not necessarily so black and white. It is entirely possible that challenge#2 can yield a more musical result for player B when compared to challenge #1 as played by player A. Player B may have enough technique to cover the difficulties whilst still sounding like he "owned" it.

Fine, then it's about what the player can cover, but what if Player B played challenge #1 and challenge #2. Will #1 sound better? I say if the player has enough technique, he can make both sound compelling, and if that's true, then it doesn't matter which way you learn to play the notes.

[christianm77]

Let's say I have 32 bar fast and complex Bop head and provide Tab notation for the sake of being absolutely specific about where the notes are to be played. As well as that I provide exact information about the picking hand, up and down stokes, "swept" strokes, slurs, slides etc. Assume that it has been ergonomically worked out to playable in the most natural sounding way, ie, unforced.

Your probably thinking that the hand will be moving all over the place along the neck, as is often the case with guitar "ergonomics" Fine, let's say it does, and let's call that challenge #1.

Now provide a totally different challenge #2 where the notes are played moving to as few positional changes as possible, where the hand barely moves out of the position where most of the range of notes in the head exists. No Tab, no picking instructions. There will be awkward stretches, as well as awkward outside picking, the things we tried to avoid with the first Tab.

Which will sound more musical? Because that's the "right" answer to any challenge on the instrument, right? If it's easier than it's better. Well, I'd like to offer the idea that it's not necessarily so black and white. It is entirely possible that challenge#2 can yield a more musical result for player B when compared to challenge #1 as played by player A. Player B may have enough technique to cover the difficulties whilst still sounding like he "owned" it.

Fine, then it's about what the player can cover, but what if Player B played challenge #1 and challenge #2. Will #1 sound better? I say if the player has enough technique, he can make both sound compelling, and if that's true, then it doesn't matter which way you learn to play the notes.

I'm not really sure what your point is beyond 'you should do what works for you' with which I agree.

My gut reaction is that positional playing will always sound a bit square and mechanical compared to challenge #1, but I'm sure there are some exceptions. I believe Jim Hall had a very classical left hand IRC, for example.

Also challenge #2 would heavily incentivise you to use some sort of balanced, flexible picking such as alternate or economy rather than traditional down stroke heavy jazz approaches. Again I would argue that would push you more towards the fusion/contemporary sound rather than the swing/straightahead zone, which is fine if that's what you want. It would also affect your ability to play an acoustic with a strong sound, which is again maybe not an issue (it is for me.)

If you want to pop up a video trying the two different systems out, that might be interesting. I may even do it myself if I have time. I used to learn bop heads in position with alternate picking about 10 years ago, so I'll see if I can recall any of my fingerings...

TBH in the general course of my professional life, I really don't think about it that much. I just try a few different fingerings and go with what feels natural. If it feels natural and easy, usually there's a reason. In my case that reason would tend to involve picking patterns that work well when I actually analyse it, but I have come to trust my body on the matter. In my playing the fretting hand tends to be heavily subservient to the needs of the picking hand for various reasons. Less so on the electric.

Some times it is valuable to break down the technique a little more intellectually, especially if something is recurrently not working. This is usually the matter of a couple of measures or even notes. The Troy Grady stuff has been great for focussing on the right hand.

If you are an alternate picker you will find a different set of demands and challenges. For example outside picking can be awkward. In fact, the way I pick, outside picking is easier and preferable :-)

As a teacher I like to have a very specific tradition and set of rules rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. Gypsy Jazz is easy to teach because the technique is really very clear and completely different to the (equally valid) tradition you are talking about.

If I was teaching straightahead I would probably model my approach on Wes or perhaps George Benson (when I get GB picking together), which is not that much different when you think about it.

As far as the post/bop contemporary stuff goes, I don't think that's really consistent. John S, Pat and Mike Stern are old school sliders. Kurt's pretty slidey though he does stretches if he needs them. Other guys (Lage Lund, Jonathon Kreisberg) are more stretchy/four fingered. Also it depends if you are primarily a pianistic/chordal player (like Lage) or a more hornlike player (like Kurt.) I tend to go with the latter in my own playing.

Also it depends how big your mitts are whether you can use mostly three fingers or all four. Some cats have small hands and need to use the pinky, can't stick their thumb over to get bass notes etc. I suppose the advantage of classical technique is that is always works, right?

Trust your body, everyone's different too.

[princeplanet]

....
TBH in the general course of my professional life, I really don't think about it that much. I just try a few different fingerings and go with what feels natural. If it feels natural and easy....

Cool, I'll try to extrapolate a little, my point was that just because it's "easy" doesn't make it best! If your technique is limited (well, who's isn't?), then yeah, your lucky if you can find just one way to get your point across, and the easier to play the better you'll sound. But if you can play it in a way that most people would find more difficult, it may lead to a superior effect on the listener.

For example, many players slur notes that sound like they were intended to sound accented, but due to limitations, were fingered in a way that sounds compromised. But if you practiced a more difficult way, say that involved staying in position with stretches but with more struck notes (less slurred) on accented beats, then it may sound more "appropriate", or just plain more compelling. Sometimes the difficult way sounds better, if you can hack it. And I personally find that staying in position is not for wanting to find an easier way (because it's often more difficult), but for making the line sound stronger.

Yes, I know that Martino, Wes, GB etc never had a problem with sounding compelling, but that's because they had the happy knack of moving all over around the place without having any weak notes, their slurs were either strong when they needed to be, or placed on weak beats strategically... A lot of modern players have compromised phrasing, it seems to me, because they seem to be " left hand centric", the right hand adapts to the left hand and not the other way around. That and the light fingered, soft attack with compression/overdrive/FX etc means the right hand gets lazy.

Still too unclear? OK, how's this? - Finding the easy way out can make average players sound better, but also good players sound worse. Instruments with longer pedagogy (strings etc) have technical demands that don't represent the "easy way out", which make the novice sound unlistenable, but the master sound, well, "masterful".

Even simpler, the easy way is often, but not always, the better way....

[fumblefingers]

Is it necessary to organise scales and arpeggios in 3 or 4 note-per-string patterns in order to play them evenly at very high tempos?

i don't know a lot about these but ill take a stab.

"No".

firstly, i'm not familiar with 4 notes per string, and don't wish to be.

re: 3NPS. well, these certainly enable very rapid ascension and descension, especially when one slurs and plays diatonically up and down the scale. you can cover a lot of range with them too. cool! economy picking is a nice compliment as well.

but:

playing chromatics and arpeggios with tensions reduce those advantages to a degree, or so it seems to me.

and economy picking is a speedy alternative to alternate picking, regardless of scale fingering approach.

[christianm77]

Cool, I'll try to extrapolate a little, my point was that just because it's "easy" doesn't make it best! If your technique is limited (well, who's isn't?), then yeah, your lucky if you can find just one way to get your point across, and the easier to play the better you'll sound. But if you can play it in a way that most people would find more difficult, it may lead to a superior effect on the listener.

For example, many players slur notes that sound like they were intended to sound accented, but due to limitations, were fingered in a way that sounds compromised. But if you practiced a more difficult way, say that involved staying in position with stretches but with more struck notes (less slurred) on accented beats, then it may sound more "appropriate", or just plain more compelling. Sometimes the difficult way sounds better, if you can hack it. And I personally find that staying in position is not for wanting to find an easier way (because it's often more difficult), but for making the line sound stronger.

I would want a fingering that would accent the right notes. That's part of what I mean by 'easy' - if the idea flows right in that fingering, then it is a good fingering...

Yes, I know that Martino, Wes, GB etc never had a problem with sounding compelling, but that's because they had the happy knack of moving all over around the place without having any weak notes, their slurs were either strong when they needed to be, or placed on weak beats strategically... A lot of modern players have compromised phrasing, it seems to me, because they seem to be " left hand centric", the right hand adapts to the left hand and not the other way around. That and the light fingered, soft attack with compression/overdrive/FX etc means the right hand gets lazy.

Ha whadya know? We agree!

I believe it is because they learned by ear. I think the ear is a great teacher for fingerings. When I started transcribing bebop heads instead of learning them from lead sheets, my bop playing improved a lot technically (I think anyway.)

In part, it's because you learn where the important notes are and where the less important ones are that you can ghost or fudge if needs be.

Still too unclear? OK, how's this? - Finding the easy way out can make average players sound better, but also good players sound worse. Instruments with longer pedagogy (strings etc) have technical demands that don't represent the "easy way out", which make the novice sound unlistenable, but the master sound, well, "masterful".

Even simpler, the easy way is often, but not always, the better way....

Without concrete examples I'm really struggling to see exactly what you mean.

I think we have different definitions of easy. I think one should play a phrase in the way that's most natural and musical on the guitar. It's not always easy to do this, but in most cases there's one or two clear solutions that work really well. That's what I mean by easy. I'll try and do a video with some concrete examples.

[vintagelove]

i don't know a lot about these but ill take a stab.

"No".

firstly, i'm not familiar with 4 notes per string, and don't wish to be.

re: 3NPS. well, these certainly enable very rapid ascension and descension, especially when one slurs and plays diatonically up and down the scale. you can cover a lot of range with them too. cool! economy picking is a nice compliment as well.

but:

playing chromatics and arpeggios with tensions reduce those advantages to a degree, or so it seems to me.

and economy picking is a speedy alternative to alternate picking, regardless of scale fingering approach.

3nps fingerings beg for chromatics and multi octave arpeggios with tensions, once you can see them. Once your eyes are opened, it opens up and connects the entire neck.

[fumblefingers]

3nps fingerings beg for chromatics and multi octave arpeggios with tensions, once you can see them. Once your eyes are opened, it opens up and connects the entire neck.

i get the arpeggio part, but help me with the chromatics...

[vintagelove]

i get the arpeggio part, but help me with the chromatics...

Hello, I just wrote this yesterday in response to another thread, basically in the 7 positions there are only a few fingerings. The chromatics are just the "blank spots". Each position has the chromatics fall in different places which opens a lot of great possibilities/sounds in each position. It's so easy (once you can see it) in fact, it feels kinda like cheating.

Lastly there are only a few finger patterns possible, this pertains to your fingering question...

index middle pinky (frets 346)
ind ring pin. (Frets 356)
what I call big, index skip a fret, middle skip fret, pinky, (frets 357)

Now, your chromatic passing tones can only fall in those blank spaces. The only one that has an option is the big fingering, 357imp..... 3457imrp....3567imrp

finally, if you want all 5 chromatics in a row, ascending would be 1234slide4, descending, 4321slide1

[wolflen]

I think the key words in the question Necessay EVENLY..VERY..

there is a UTube of John McLaughlin playing on the Tonight show .. playing Cherokee with the band..John is playing a nylon string sitting down..the tempo is fast..he plays chords and solos fast and clean..I would call his attack even..at all points in the tune

I understand his style is unique .. at points he plays three finger runs and at other points four finger runs..

watching him play in person and on vids..I would say he is very organized and knows what is needed to get the sound he wants..

todays contemporary players are using more complex chords and scales than players did years ago..influences of fusion and progressive rock are in many players styles..

Eric Johnson Ben Monder are two that come to mind..Im sure they know positions at all points of the neck and can infer chords at will..the use of synthetic scales and combinations of scales on different string sets and intervallic playing is in both their playing..

is it necessary to organize..YES..(3 or 4 nps is not that important)..you must know where target notes are at any given point on the neck..so you CAN play evenly..if your "searching" for a note there is little chance it will have the correct timber as a note you know where its located..and your muscle memory does the work for you

feeling comfortable at all points and in all keys on the fretboard are some of the main goals in our study of jazz

[princeplanet]

...Without concrete examples I'm really struggling to see exactly what you mean....

One last try- forget bop heads, just take any solo, you're copping by ear. Something hard, fast and that probably moves around a lot. You work out a particularly difficult phrase one way, and then decide your technique is too deficient to make it sound strong, so you search for alternate ways, with both hands, until it flies.

Then sometime later, months or even years, you come upon that phrase again that you're trying to remember, only you play it like the first time you worked it out (where it didn't work out), only this time it sounds better. Still you start to recall how you found the easiest way to play it, and you finally remember it. Only, you compare it to the other way (more "in position", more stretches, more struck notes etc) only to realise that the way you thought was "better" all those months ago, now doesn't sound better after all!

Then you begin to wonder about all the times you settled on certain ways to get around phrases because at the time they were easier. Many times, some way down the track as your technique improves, you can find new ways to get around that sound better to you now, that didn't at the time. Some guys like me try to update, others don't because they're perfectly happy the way they learned and don't wanna mess with their "habits".

It depends, of course, on your style. The 3 fingers guys that slide all over the place have a "sound", and if you wanna sound like them, you almost need to play the same way. But if you're getting lines from other players, or instruments, or from your own imagination, then maybe the sliding 3 finger technique is not optimum.

That's all I'm trying to say, although I'm not sure these thoughts are of any use to anyone else!

[christianm77]

One last try- forget bop heads, just take any solo, you're copping by ear. Something hard, fast and that probably moves around a lot. You work out a particularly difficult phrase one way, and then decide your technique is too deficient to make it sound strong, so you search for alternate ways, with both hands, until it flies.

Then sometime later, months or even years, you come upon that phrase again that you're trying to remember, only you play it like the first time you worked it out (where it didn't work out), only this time it sounds better. Still you start to recall how you found the easiest way to play it, and you finally remember it. Only, you compare it to the other way (more "in position", more stretches, more struck notes etc) only to realise that the way you thought was "better" all those months ago, now doesn't sound better after all!

Then you begin to wonder about all the times you settled on certain ways to get around phrases because at the time they were easier. Many times, some way down the track as your technique improves, you can find new ways to get around that sound better to you now, that didn't at the time. Some guys like me try to update, others don't because they're perfectly happy the way they learned and don't wanna mess with their "habits".

It depends, of course, on your style. The 3 fingers guys that slide all over the place have a "sound", and if you wanna sound like them, you almost need to play the same way. But if you're getting lines from other players, or instruments, or from your own imagination, then maybe the sliding 3 finger technique is not optimum.

That's all I'm trying to say, although I'm not sure these thoughts are of any use to anyone else!

I think I see what you are saying. It's good to explore options. In general if it ain't broke I try not to fix it, but sometimes things are broke and you don't know till a bit further on down the road.

[princeplanet]

I think I see what you are saying. It's good to explore options. In general if it ain't broke I try not to fix it, but sometimes things are broke and you don't know till a bit further on down the road.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I seem to spend a lot (maybe too much?) time "updating" my technique. It's a drag because it takes extra time to first unlearn the old, and then learn the new, resisting the old all along..

These days I'm more careful to make sure I'm learning something in a way I won't be updating any time soon!

​

[christianm77]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I seem to spend a lot (maybe too much?) time "updating" my technique. It's a drag because it takes extra time to first unlearn the old, and then learn the new, resisting the old all along..

These days I'm more careful to make sure I'm learning something in a way I won't be updating any time soon!

​

I'm not sure if you were talking about 3nps fingerings before, but this is definitely relevant to the OP - check out Troy Grady's interview with Jimmy Bruno (you have to pay but it's worth it - the Marty Friedman interview is great, for example, I love what he has to say). Pretty much one of the first things he says is why 3nps is not a good idea for jazz....

The reasons he gives are the same as fumblefinger's...