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We all know that the electric guitar is a really versatile instrument (sound-wise, in this case). Still the predominant guitar sound in jazz is the traditional, clean sound. This makes sense as the clean amp retains the harmonic complexity of the chords.
Still I wonder why jazz guitarists don't make use of distorted sounds more often. So I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread where you can share your favourite examples of crunch or distortion in jazz.
I would start with Mary Halvorson. You hear the sound I'm referring to from 16:30 mins. onward.
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01-01-2016 06:17 AM
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I think they do use distortion or overdrive. If you listen to Rosenwinkel or Gilad Hekselman they very often use distortion.
Originally Posted by Duotone
And actually Kenny Burrell is pushing the amp into overdrive on Chitlins Con Carne.
Jens
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J.Scofield
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Django!
There's a version of "Belleville" out there where he is REALLY cranked up...but I couldn't find it, so this will do.
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In Bill Milkowski's book on Jaco Pastorius, there's a bit about when Mike Stern was touring with Jaco in Blood, Sweat, & Tears where Jaco told Mike, "Forget about playing bebop. Turn it up and play that screaming shit. That's what the guitar was invented for. Those guys playing those other instruments only wish they could do that."
Which is what Miles Davis told Mike 5 years later. Mike said Miles would reach over and say in his ear, "Turn it up or turn it off!"
Link see page 82.
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Ben Monder usually goes into meltdown mode where he pulls out his Meshuggah/shred cards and deals them all out.
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I would say the main reasons why jazz guitarists tend not to use distortion are:
1) lack of clarity in chords with drive
2) a sort of semi-conscious distancing from the rock guitar players in later years
A lot of contemporary originals jazz sounds like Fusion with an acoustic rhythm section. The harmony has a similar concept often... Fusion has been absorbed into jazz guitar in a big way (unless you are an arch-traditionalist) and there's no separating them out...
Kurt Rosenwinkel is like a rock guitar player who has thoroughly learned jazz. I think his instincts are quite rock.
To find a true jazz player who uses distortion - well does the question even make any sense? Traditional players (Pasquale Grasso say) are reacting against fusion, fusion influenced players (Kurt say) are going with it.
Either way, you can't ignore it. But fusion was like 30-40 years ago now. There was as much time between King Oliver and John Coltrane then there is between us and Weather Report... It's part of the tradition now.
I have no idea what Ben Monder is. Listening to his music, the label jazz guitarist seems preposterous. Instrumental prog rock? Modern concert/classical music for jazz group? Obviously the man can play jazz and has worked with the masters, but it seems a bit silly to label him with that term.
I notice a lot of these players avoid typical rock articulations though - bends, sharp wide vibrato, etc.Last edited by christianm77; 01-01-2016 at 10:36 PM.
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Elements of fusion are just as much a part of mainstream and straight ahead jazz as anything for the last 40 years. Unless you're some kind of purist, distorted guitar is a big part of the mix.
We are given Mary H playing avant garde jazz as an example...her influences include Sonny Sharrock, Nels Cline, Marc Ribot, etc...not exactly Wes.
Personally, I like to hear 21st century guitar, like Frisell, Cline, Ribot, Moreno, Lund, Kreisberg, Rosewinkel, Arnold, etc.... they'll use any effect it takes to express their creativity, and won't be limited to some 50 year old guitar aesthetic. I can match or exceed the power and energy of a tenor sax on the bandstand if asked to. Isn't that why some of us love modern guitar?
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Though not a jazz guitar player per se, Wayne Kramer gives a nice example of how a distorted guitar can keep up with horn players, sharing some similarities in terms of edginess, grit, sustain, intensity: Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I was listening/watching this vid when my wife asks "Why dont they all play the same song?" She had to flee the room. Definitely not a fan. Originally Posted by Duotone
I have not heard any to speak of outside of the fusiony smooth jazz stuff. I will surely look now that you piqued my interest.
I remember listening to my guitar teacher playing a chord progression through a cranked fender stack while he was between lessons many years ago. I was quite amazed by the sound as I had limited my self to chugging out power chords at the time. I asked what he was playing and he said its just a few jazz chords.
Fast forward thirty years I mess around with different levels of overdrive and distortion just to hear what happens and because I can. I haven't tried playing through a whole standard. It feels kind of blasphemous. I must say hitting chords with the volume down and rolling it up as I strum sounds pretty cool.
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Here is a live version with a great distorted sound. Originally Posted by JensL
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the group Fourplay to me is contemporary jazz..they play original arrangements and have a nice following..the guitarists (ritenour, carlton and loeb) use all the effects that is available to todays sound..and use traditional "jazz" flavors .. the ongoing debate of what is jazz gets turned into whats not jazz in this context..others in the group Bob James and Harvey Mason..I consider jazz musicians..not fusion/pop/rock..though they can play it with ease and have at times..
to me Mary is playing experimental music..and she even calls it that in some YTube vids..its not dance music..and it takes a bit to listen for extended takes..but so does allan holdsworth..at least to meLast edited by wolflen; 01-03-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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if you showed up and tried to play with a distorted sound in my trio I would stop everything immediately and tell you to either get a proper sound or get the hell off the band stand. Being that I grew up in Texas, I'd have no philosophical problem at all with kicking your ass if you gave me any lip about it either. You put distortion on a jazz sound. Surely you were looking for a fight is how I see it.
Sorry boys, but that's how I feel about it. That's where I plant my flag, and in my band that is absolutely the way it is
For us it is still 1953. Out there in la-la land its 2016 and that's fine, but when you play with us it's 1953
adjust your tone accordingly
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Fogey
Kidding aside, your trio, your sound. Thats the way it is. If Im a guest in someone else's band, I ask what they're looking for and contribute accordingly.
And if they don't specify...out comes the Marshall stack!
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and you guys know that I really wouldn't ever beat somebody up for playing jazz the way they hear it, but I do get a kick out of channeling some of the old guys I learned from. That is EXACTLY how the old fellas explained their expectations of tone to me when I was coming up. Any hint of rock or country was strictly forbidden. I even had a bandleader tell me he wanted my tone knobs turned to zero. Period. No discussion. And I was playing a hollow body arch-top!
You see, back then men didn't get to actually have feelings. The old guys busted your chops all the time because they wanted you to measure up. Your job as a young man was to sit there and take it and be glad you had a chance to get berated all night by some veteran musicians
You young bucks really missed out. Some of the old bebop men could really dish it out. They were at once both hilarious and instructive, provided you didn't have too thin a skin
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There is not just one "distorted" sound, and no hard and fast border between clean and distorted. As others note, volume alone can push the sound into less than clean territory. Starts as "edge", the beginning of overdrive. That's far from the gain drenched fuzz some guys play. Distortion is a very broad category, not one thing.
If you play even the more powerful tweed amps (tweed bassman for example), it's arguable whether any guitar sound is truly clean up past a certain volume level.
Anyway, I'm not much for heavily distorted guitar, at least when I'm playing, regardless of setting. But I do love a little edge and drive when the volume goes up. And I can't see how the clean to distorted sound continuum reliably tracks to genre. Plenty of rock guys go for pristine clean, and plenty of non-fusion jazz players let a little drive creep in. Such as one of my heros, Grant Green. Sometimes quite clean, others, a bit of an edge to the sound.
MD
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Hey Nate Miller my pa taught me right, men have exactly two feelings... Hunger and Exhaustion.....
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In my opinion, guitarists of the "new school" like Rosenwinkel, Hekselman and Kreisberg got it "right" when it comes to playing a distorted jazz guitar, and treating the guitar as a proper harmonic and melodic instrument, and not just getting by with some cool licks and tricks. I mean, their music sounds like well thought of music, and not just some theme and then endless and at certain points "I-don't-have-a-damn-clue-where-I-am-but-I'm-having-a-heluva-lot-of-fun" improvisations like in those early fusion days.
And BTW, as for Mike Stern, although he plays a lot of bebop lines, he seems to me as a more towards rock inclined player than Rosenwinkel, nevermind the appearance.
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John McLaughlin's tone is pretty dirty on Extrapolation (1968). Goes great with the baritone sax!
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I think for playing the standards, major distortion and sustain are a no-no, unless you're approaching it from the avant-garde side.
However, some effects, like a tasteful amount of chorus and reverb, can really help out, especially on slow tunes without a lot of other instruments where there's a lot of empty space to fill.
I was accompanying our singer recently on a ballad, can't remember which one--Mean to Me, maybe--and she asked if I could "pretty it up". I dialed up the reverb a bit and turned on chorus on the Fishman Artist, and she said, "Yes! That's it!" Made my day.
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Possibly, Stern is more obviously blues rock. But I would regard Stern as much more of a traditional bop improviser who sticks some blues rock licks and a bunch on chorus on so he could get gigs in the '70s :-) Originally Posted by aleksandar
But I still hear Kurt as prog rock player - perhaps not a guitar player though - maybe a synth player haha. Not many bends going on... I think it was when I put Heartcore on for my flatmate an excellent jazz pianist, and he said with some derision 'this isn't jazz - it's prog rock!!!' and I realised then he was right (flatmate in question is more into Sonny Clarke and the Smiths.)
The thing is I infinitely prefer Bernstein's very straight sound in this clip, but that's a matter of taste, I think.
(The thing is I still have a huge soft spot for Steve Hackett and all that lot..... Not sure if I should admit that early Genesis was the first band I got into ... oh well I just did)
But anyway, yes Kurt and that lot are pretty amazing and the early days fusion players don't tend to interest me (I like Jonny Mac better when he had no picking chops... )
I think that unless you play a big fat archtop with strings like bridge supports (or a Maccaferri) and take into account anything done in guitar since Wes you will inevitably sound like prog rock. It's just the way it is. Popular music is all about simple things being played on the guitar....
Why not wear the cape? :-)Last edited by christianm77; 01-28-2016 at 05:55 PM.
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BTW - for me the only guy who really makes the effects thing work for me is Bill Frisell - perhaps because so much of what sounds like a pedal is the way he plays - that campanelas/country legato and subtle vibrato from the neck.
I listen to stuff like this, and I do kind of think - turn down the mix knob on the delay pedal and we could hear so much more clearly how awesome you are:
Also, not a fan of end of the solo, although the fuzz tone itself is great. I can't help but think - Bill would have played that fuzz effect to greater effect, because it is not a sound that flatters sweep picking and shredding stuff...
It's a stunning performance, but these elements don't quite work for me - and they are really effects related.Last edited by christianm77; 01-28-2016 at 05:54 PM.
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only one mention of Sco? He's the guy for me. His tone on works for me is clean but still has a little dirt on it which sounds great for straight jazz. Yeah frisell as well.
Even robben ford pulls it off here (remember this track caused that thread)
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Yeah, that's a point. Sco sounds like a horn... Originally Posted by nick1994
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