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when doing strict alternate picking does the down beat always get the same stroke. For example if you start on a down stroke on the down beat and go 1 (down) + (up) 2 (down) + (up) 3 (down) + (up) 4 (down and hold the 4 for a full beat) do you resume the 1 again on a down stroke.
To simplify do all the down beats get down strokes if you start on a down or is the next stroke regardless of the rhythm the opposite of what you just played.
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12-30-2015 10:20 PM
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I never really thought about it that much (and I'd probably screw up my playing if I did), but I'm pretty sure I'll up pick on a down beat if the last stroke was down. Like if I played a triplet on beat 4, the top of beat 1 would be an upstroke.
(But on the other hand I'm not all that strict about alternating. I'll sweep and slip if it seems more natural.)
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It's a stylistic choice that you have to make.
A lot of bluegrass players, for example, will alternate with downstrokes on the downbeat, and will do repeated downstrokes if there are hammer-ons in between or the like.
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Yeah, it's a good BEGINNING reference at the very least, and you see it in a lot of beginning methods: Down on the beat, up on "&". Of course, it's kind of a "least common denominator" thing as well. If it's 16th notes, then, it's down on the beat as well as the"&", with upstrokes on the beats in between.
IMO, it's the main thing that makes the guitar distinctive as a rhythm instrument. I work with an amateur pianist, and they just don't get polyrhythmic patterns as easily if they're not pretty disciplined. Meanwhile, you can teach a KID to do it on the guitar, by just "missing" an upstroke or downstroke.
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Johnny Smith- arguably the possessor of the best plectrum technique in the history of jazz guitar- stated that the downbeats got a downstroke and the upbeats got an upstroke so that he always knew where he was. His hand became a metronome, basically. There is really only one video that I have seen which has a good camera angle on his hand while picking and I haven't looked closely to see if he really follows that pattern.
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Some people pick this way.
It has long history or so it would seem - learning lute at the moment and the basic technique use a similar principle only with thumb and index or second finger index. It is believed that lute technique is derived from the earlier plectrum technique so maybe early lutes were played this way? Mr mackillop might know more about this....
Probably a great thing to practice. real life picking on the gig can be a combination of approaches....
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That's an interesting little bit of history... and I agree, performing is different from practice. When developing picking, you do at least need an approach that repeats. With most jazz guitars and with most jazz guitarist... the articulations are different from down and up strokes with picks. I have pretty good pick technique and can somewhat fake or create the same articulation from both pick directions... ( we are talking about playing jazz guitars ), anyway... I still generally always use alternating picking... and always use it as my basic reference. Of course tempos and how your counting or subdividing effects the pulse of alternating picking. At slower tempos and when you want to create a articulation pattern or feel... and as Christian was saying... performing... you pick as you want or feel.
But Yes... on the beat... down.... off the beat up. Do you play any wind instruments... tonguing is basic technique for stopping air flow. Basic performance... no articulations etc...is use of tonguing between each note. Straight playing... the starting reference ...creates a natural strong- weak performance pattern. Somewhat how we as guitarist use straight alternate picking to also create that basic reference of strong - weak flow of notes.
Again the point is to have a basic reference or starting point. What you would perform naturally when not thinking.... and hopefully that repeats, again without thinking.
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I always treat the downbeat as a downstroke. I mean I don't know what I really do, but that's how I practice and that's how I'm pretty sure it goes. Articulation being what it is. Sometimes you want to accent the weak beat.
I have focused on my picking for many, many, many years with a variety of exercises and, unlike Reg, I cannot make my upstroke sound like my down. But I don't have a problem controlling the lick direction. Multiple ups or downs or funny combination ls aren't a problem. But the integrity of the rhythmic phrase seems to fall better in line when I articulate in this way. Phrases fall in line for me.
YMMV.
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I find it common for folks to get a bit confused about articulating 8th notes on the guitar because of picking mechanics. Most will pick down and up, matching their picking strokes to the beats....downbeat/downstroke, upbeat/upstrokes. In music when we count 8th notes, we go 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & = 8 The numbers are downbeats, the "&" are upbeats or offbeats.
The tricky part about articulating on guitar, is we have a natural tendency to accent on downstrokes, which leads to a heap of trouble when we play downstrokes on the downbeat because....in jazz, the accent is on the UPBEAT, also known as the "and"...or offbeat...
This is why so many guys fail to sound like jazz when they're trying to play 8th notes...it's something we have to contend with that is somewhat counterintuitive to alternating down/up right hand picking technique.
Can you tackle it by switching to up/down picking? Hmmm...that way you are using downstrokes to accent the upbeats...can you wrap your head around that? Otherwise, you must master accenting with upstrokes.....thoughts?
http://www.garciamusic.com/educator/...wing.feel.htmlLast edited by cosmic gumbo; 01-02-2016 at 07:11 AM.
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Incidentally that is where the lute is different. The accent is always on the beat - the off beat is light. My teacher tells me off for making my upbeats too strong....
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I know that violinists use 'swing bowing' for jazz, where the downbow is on the offbeat. Might be a good thing to play around with on guitar.....Last edited by christianm77; 01-02-2016 at 07:47 AM.
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as a beginner what I am most concerned with now is keeping time and one way for me to do this is to keep the down stroke on the downbeats. To me keeping some sense of rhythm is most important for me now so I do not get completely lost in a tune or line. I have been practicing with the pick as a mini pendulum so I know where I am in an eight note run - granted this logic will not hold up in complex rhythms. When I strictly alternate I find that I am getting lost when I come to a new chord and on the 1 I am hitting an up stroke. Somehow I feel misplaced.
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Yes ! If you want to take picking to the next level you should master the ability to accent upstrokes OR downstrokes. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
This enables syncopation and obviously enables "downbeats" at any point in your picking .
The first step is to get upstrokes and downstrokes even sounding using simple exercises like Tremelo where you alternate pick one note like a Mandolin Player in strict rhythm.
Then practice accenting upstrokes and/or downstrokes keep fret hand simple at first.
Then practice accenting upstrokes and working them back into simple phrases.
A teacher with good picking mechanics can guide you.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-07-2016 at 09:50 AM.
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Yes ! If you want to take picking to the next level you should master the ability to accent upstrokes OR downstrokes. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
This enables syncopation and obviously enables "downbeats" at any point in the phrase.
The next step above that is alternate picking triads across three strings enabling
rhythmic triplets / sextuplets etc. sheets of sound.
The complex picking schemes are ways around this but actually many people rip
Pentatonics alternate picking two notes per string- not a big leap to alternate 1 note per string.
I have not heard anyone be able to "swing" or do rhythmic figures while "sweeping" but maybe there is someone who can.
Of course - if you like "sweeping" and "economy" and they work for you - that's fine.
Just saying that it can be done with alternate picking and this opens up rhythmic patterns across the fretboard and is as rhythmic as you normally pick
and you barely have to think about it when improvising and can be done at obnoxious speeds ...lol.
There is a lot of misinformation and complex subcategories re: alternate picking- almost everyone who plays a string instrument Guitar/Mandolin etc. with a Pick who plays medium to faster Tempos or 8th and 16th and 32nd notes uses primarily Alternate Picking-
"Circle Picking" "Sarod Picking" "Scalpel Picking" are all subtle variations of "Alternate Picking" and even Players who use "Economy" Picking or " Sweep" Picking are still
Alternate Picking much of the time- and using the other Techniques to cross strings and or play Arpeggios more "easily".
"Gypsy " Picking is mostly Alternate Picking again and often a forceful attack sometimes using larger picks for more grip and force.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-06-2016 at 09:13 AM.
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Not sure if the term 'sweep picking' is present in this thread. But, I took some lessons in the 60s (now I'm in my 60s !) from (and can't remember how he spelled it) Alan DuMoss <[this is phonetic] in NYC. I believe he and Dan Armstrong were on W 48th st,"music row", in those days, in the same walk up (always smelled pot in those stairs, way back when it was still treated as nearly a felony to possess !). Anyway, Alan taught me sweep picking. His explanation was, when repeating several of the same notes of course it's alternate picking. But he taught that when going across the stings toward the floor (from 4th to 3rd to 2nd str., say), the pick remains V V V. If we then go back 1,2 or say, 3 strings toward ceiling, the picking is a constant upstroke. This is between 2 or more strings, going in any direction, up or down. This too of course coincides greatly with Arps. This is 'sweep picking' even when we're going from say, the 6th str. to the 2nd and from, say 3rd str. to the 5th or such.
My best friend Marc S., who is a great player and reader but quit years ago and went into computer repair in order to be able to raise his 2 daughters (Something very very hard to do if you're a jazz musician, then or now), says sweep picking is only for Arps., that the rest are alternated..
Well, here are two view points anyhoo. I believe Alan's is the real McCoy. Yet, in his day while I was sometimes on same gigs with him (I played bass for 35 years in between classical and jazz guitar) Marc S. (I'm Mark H) was fantastic ! Go figure.........Last edited by MarkInLA; 01-07-2016 at 02:26 AM.
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Sweep picking falls under economy picking in jazz as far as I'm concerned, except when it is the foundation of a shred type of technique, then you take it to a whole other level which can involve multiple pulls and hammers while you sweep.
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Well, maybe it "can involve" hammers /pulls. But it doesn't have to in order to be sweep picking. I wasn't referring to actual lines we might play, only the type of picking we might choose to do them with; that being alternate or sweep. I see this as similar to bass bowing. German bowing, hand under bow, is aggressive and firm (like alternate picking) and French bowing, hand over bow, is a tad more graceful, sweeter, say (like sweep picking). But both bows are acceptable in the classical music world and may even be mixed within an 8 piece bass section..
Last edited by MarkInLA; 01-07-2016 at 02:28 AM.
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Sorry to keep being so pedantic, but this is not quite right. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
IMO it's a closer approximation to say Gypsy Picking is down strokes only (with rakes going down the strings for arps etc) with up strokes only used in special cases... At least that's how I teach it. Sort out the down strokes and the upstrokes follow naturally...
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OK. If you are teaching it I defer to your expertise.
But in the videos looks similar to what Dimeola used to do.
So I am just going from vids.
Being precise/ pedantic and correcting about technical stuff is fine..
I will check a few vids ..I am not learning that technique but I don't want to spread wrong info..thanks.
I remember what you said about gravity on downstrokes and they do often use a "high wrist" and definitely let it fall- so I see what you meant there.
The more I am corrected and guided here the more I learn...
Picking - I have climbed that ladder but
that does not mean I know how others achieve it.
However the whole "Picking" thing has become EXTREMELY and unnecessarily
COMPLICATED IMO.
With subcategories and no clear definitions.
What I mean is Sarod Picking/ Circle Picking/ and a lot of other Terms are Variations or Subsets of Alternate Picking NOT a different Technique altogether.
It must be so confusing to people trying to learn.
I was in a Music Store checking a Guitar out unplugged and a guy asked me where I learned to "Sweep" like that.
Only I alternate across the Strings not sweep.
And when I told him- he told ME I was " sweeping" .
I showed him how my pick went back and forth- but he was not convinced- .
I LOST the Music Store Debate ( lol) about how I was picking.
I think you really need Videos or Diagrams and Defined Terms for Technical Things like Picking.
Also regardless of "Pick Grip" or " slicing through" the Strings like Benson/ Neil Schon or slicing at a shallower Angle like Sagmeister-
OR picking with a more "Conventional" Grip - to play at higher speeds you must "Alternate" on a given string.
" Alternate"= hitting string from one side then going back in a similarly opposite Direction."
"Circle Picking" is still Alternating on a given string just a slight offset between upstroke and downstroke as to where they hit the string.
"Sarod Picking"- similar to above.
Benson on 3 or 4 Notes of a Chromatic Scale on any one String is still Alternating up and down( or back and forth) but " slicing" the String with pick edge.
Playing slow to medium Tempos - you can do anything you want - Look at Wes Montgomery...
For faster Tempos or 16ths and 32nd Notes you can't play a steady stream of them without some form of Alternating on each string..Gypsy or not.
Ask a Gypsy Picker to play 4 notes of a Chromatic Scale up and down in 16th Notes on 1 String at 100 BPM and he will go back and forth with the Pick Alternating - or he won't make the Tempo.
Regardless of what he calls it it's Alternating - NOT 3 up and 1 down , or 2 up and 1 down etc.
Go to your Guitar now and quickly play an Amin 7 and then Rip some Pentatonic scales in that Key - just do it-
Don't think.
Then do the same thing with all Downstrokes...
Then do it with a Downstroke every time you go to a new string ascending
and an upstroke every time you go to a new string as you descend the Scale.
Complicated eh ?
Just saying....Keep it as simple as possible for your Mind and Hands.
If you can hear it in your Mind and Play it- great -does not matter how you do it.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-08-2016 at 02:18 PM.
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I'm glad you think so! Pendantry/accuracy is really important on technical stuff. Gypsy Picking is taught in a very defined clear way. GJ players are extremely self conscious about technique, so we can tell you the do's and don'ts straight up. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
1) Always play a rest stroke on a downstroke.
2) The upstroke is a free stroke. (A natural part of the movement you would use to clear the string for another down stroke.)
3) Always start a new string with a downstroke.
4) Always end a phrase with a downstroke.
5) If you are playing consecutive downstrokes across the strings use a rake.
If a GJ player looks like they are alternating, it's probably because they are playing 2 (or 4) notes a string fingerings. This is very common in the Dutch school when they want to play a descending arepggio style run (the Rosenbergs etc) and 2 - notes a string GJ picking is identical to alternate picking in terms of picking directions.
However, 1 & 3 note combinations are executed with all down strokes or D U D respectively and are much more awkward. When GJ players go to 'ludicrous speed' they will sometimes avoid these combinations. It's easy to see why, because alternate picking is much much easier!
Some GJ players might cheat the odd up stroke in their (I know I do) but the purist players won't.... Birelli sometimes does up sweeps (very hard I find in GJ picking position) but this is unusual.
Anther interesting issue is what I think of a tremolo right hand - used for tremolos on chords but also on those single string chromatic runs. This is pure wrist motion with no gravity.
In this sense there is a separation between normal GJ picking and outright shredding. But that's true of many pick approaches. But you can also see that GJ picking is to some extent limited - for absolute shredding, there are only certain things you can do without breaking the rules.
Now using pure downstrokes where possible (at moderate tempos) gives you more control of accentuation. Speedy lines come with their own accentuation built in which has led some to say it is inappropriate for bebop. This is in fact exactly wrong.
As far as I can see, most bop and swing era jazz guitarists - Tal Farlow, Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, George Benson, Barney Kessell, Wes Montgomery (with his thumb), and, of course, Django - use what Troy Grady would describe as a down pick slanting strategy, of which GJ picking is an example. This favours a downstroke heavy approach and dissuades you from using up sweeps of any kind (using a Benson grip makes that a bit easier), and playing combinations like a downstroke on one string followed by an upstroke on the string above (alternate inside picking, which is meant to be easy!) It also encourages the use of rest strokes going down and therefore a more projecting, acoustic sound.
George Van Eps describes rest stroke picking in his first Guitar method. I would also be extremely surprised if Eddie Lang didn't use this approach.
Later, two way sweeping became popular - exemplified by Jimmy Raney, for example, and Chuck Wayne. This was AFAIK a break from tradition.
Alternate picking. Hmmm... I believe Hank Garland played this way? I would imagine it became more viable when guitarist played electric, but a some of the country guys use alternate for cross picking (cross picking is a can of worms) so maybe he got it from there. I see alternate picking as a more recent thing in jazz. Players born after the war, perhaps.
(On the subject of alternating - Grady defines Al di Meola as a two way pick slanter, as is Steve Morse. That's a profoundly different approach to mechanics to Django, Benson - even Eric Johnson.)
But in terms of country music - don't know. I would think it would be hard to get the projection in a Bluegrass line up (with banjo!) but I couldn't say. Perhaps others could fill me in on this.Last edited by christianm77; 01-07-2016 at 10:42 AM.
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I was always taught the down beat gets a down stroke. Two great teachers of mine here in Chicago were of this mind set as well so that's how I was taught. I'm always open for new ideas - methods - but my basis is the down stroke for the down beat. All quarter notes as well - down strokes - no matter what. Again....I'm always open for ideas and thoughts.
As stated above - Johnny Smith was the master at pick style jazz guitar (in my opinion).
Al Di Meola had an instructional video out several years ago and he discusses his picking technique at length. I'm sure you can find this on Youtube....somewhere. If I recall he is ---or was then anyway --- pretty strict with down up down up picking with a few exceptions.
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Well, it's a start. Down on down, up on up, and work on that to get control. It's mechanics, don't concern yourself when you're actually playing, unless you don't like what you hear. Once you are good at that, reverse it every once in a while, for kicks. We need control, which comes from the brain, so repetition is important, but only as fast as you can do it perfectly. You will double the tempo in a short time if you always play it right.
The speed is necessary for phrasing, not for its own sake. In fact, your speed is more important when the tempo is slow, to create legato and not sound mechanical. Each person of talent can find her own strengths to develop, weaknesses to strengthen or toss, and individual solutions to musical problems. There are many ideas presented here, and most with value to some, but hardly any of universal application unless striving to copy an genre, like gypsy picking.
In any event, fill your toolbox with tools that you enjoy using and that get the musical results you enjoy. Downpick on downbeat? Sure, but there is no penalty for not doing it all the time.
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Might this be Alan DeMause? I've never met him but I've seen his books in music stores. His picture is on the cover of this one: Originally Posted by MarkInLA
Amazon.com: Alan DeMause: Books
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I have never accepted that downstrokes should be stronger than upstrokes in the microcosm of picking a guitar string. My pick technique reflects this - I strike perpendicular to the strings in both directions. I did this when I was economy picking and I have been doing it for the nearly 2 years now since I switched to alternate picking. It`s not about gravity...it's simply about pushing vs pulling, and that`s body-part specific. Ok, mini rant over...
But more on topic, yes downbeats get downstrokes and upbeats get upstrokes.
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Jimmy Bruno teaches (what most call) "economy picking" in a jazz context. He's blindingly fast when he wants but also lyrical, bluesy, and plays lovely chord melodies. He dislikes the term "sweep" and his basic rules (-to which there are exceptions but as rules to get someone-new-to-this up and running, they work) are these: when moving to a lower string use an upstroke. When moving to a higher string, use a downstroke. When picking on a single string, alternate. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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