Practice guitar with an amp - or not?

[Irez87]

Anyone here ever play the reverb-o-rocket?

I would love to hear how that sounds. Any good clips?

That was the holy grail (African or European) of reverb, right?

[princeplanet]

Oh thank you if you're quoting Wes on this your making my point for me. Because in an interview Wes also said that he ALWAYS practiced with an amp. Wes said that to him "the guitar and the amp are one." Yes Wes said that in an interview and I happen to agree.

.....

I think most here knew that, I mean, if I played with my thumb, I'd probably practice through an amp always as well! But Wes is the exception to so many rules, it's ridiculous. He did manage to sound dynamic and exciting with the soft fleshy stroke of his thumb. But for the rest of us, practicing through your amp all the time certainly won't make you sound like Wes. Of course, not practicing through an amp won't make you sound like Django either!

OK, you guys win, I'm gonna up my practice time with an amp from now on from 20 / 80 up to 25 /75 !

[mrcee]

Hmmm, interesting case that one. As the main "troll" who has also been putting up the "it's all in fingers" argument, Joe Pass is almost an example of the opposite! I mean, I love his playing on Joy Spring, but find a lot of the DI sounding recordings almost unlistenable. The main difference is the amp tone, hence an argument for practicing with an amp. But I think more accurately, Joe may have been too blase about tone on some of those records. I bet he would have sounded better unplugged, seriously, with maybe a mic up to the strings instead!

This is why I say that the amp tone has to be complimentary to the "fingers", to enhance expression instead of quashing it. Everyone knows that listening to a straight DI tone of an electric guitar sounds like ass, it's not like what comes off the guitar to the ear at all! So the next step, the amp, has to put the natural dynamics back in there, but it can't, it's already a different playing field.

I record for a living (have done for many years), and I take DI's off guitars all the time for the purpose of re-amping (if required). For rock, you don't want any of the original dynamic, just like a keyboardist playing a synth doesn't care for his "touch" on the keys to be faithfully reproduced. But for Jazz guitar, a technique I like is to mic up the guitar as well as the cab, taking care to phase align, and bringing some real human dynamic back into the performance. It separates wheat from chaff, it really does. Good players sound better, bad players sound worse (so I turn off the gtr mic!).

If some of you feel that tone should come from the amp, that is akin to playing a synthesiser as opposed to a piano. And that's fine, whatever blows your hair back. But I'd just like to remind everyone that a modern guitar pickup is not a microphone, it's way more non linear.

Isn't there a famous story about one of Joe Pass' Virtuoso albums where the DI track wasn't recorded and they had to go with just the mic'd track?

In a lot of people's opinion Joe could have put more energy into his tone.

Supposedly when Buddy Holly was recorded they close mic'd his strat as well, for an acoustic track. His guitar tone is great on those classic sides.

[lawson-stone]

1) If they can really play and know good tone they'll get what I'm saying.

2) I never yelled at anyone.

3) That's right I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!! So that's it, now bow down, end of debate. I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So there's no need for ANY further debate on this. I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!
That's it. Once I HAVE SPOKEN your feelings on the matter are irrelevant at best because I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All-caps on Internet posts is yelling.

But you got me grinning with this and I think you do make some good points. I try to play through the amp as much as possible, mainly because I love how the instrument sounds.

[lawson-stone]

Isn't there a famous story about one of Joe Pass' Virtuoso albums where the DI track wasn't recorded and they had to go with just the mic'd track?

In a lot of people's opinion Joe could have put more energy into his tone.

Supposedly when Buddy Holly was recorded they close mic'd his strat as well, for an acoustic track. His guitar tone is great on those classic sides.

That's the lore on Virtuoso I. I never thought the acoustic sounded as bad as some do. This was before boutique archtops designed for solo acoustic playing.

[lawson-stone]

Hehe -another great Python scene (well, they're all great aren't they). But I was inferring that I be the troll in question ... Totally get what you're saying though. I remember a telling quote from Wes saying he spent little time on mechanics, either the guitar or the amp. He couldn't understand why other players were so obsessed with gear (like on this Forum eh?). He was all about the ears and the fingers (oh, and that thumb too I suppose...)

Some people need to check the attested in their Acme Irony Detector!

[princeplanet]

Some people need to check the attested in their Acme Irony Detector!

Hehe, I don't remember that particular product (was that before or after the CBS takeover?), but I do remember the company's slogan "Quality is our #1 dream"!!

[mrcee]

Hehe, I don't remember that particular product (was that before or after the CBS takeover?), but I do remember the company's slogan "Quality is our #1 dream"!!

I like the slogan from another company: "Satisfaction Demanded".
Or from Wonder Bread: "If it's good bread it's a Wonder."

[christianm77]

Isn't there a famous story about one of Joe Pass' Virtuoso albums where the DI track wasn't recorded and they had to go with just the mic'd track?

In a lot of people's opinion Joe could have put more energy into his tone.

Supposedly when Buddy Holly was recorded they close mic'd his strat as well, for an acoustic track. His guitar tone is great on those classic sides.

Recently I recorded an album with Nigel Price doing a couple of guest spots. We wanted a more acoustic sound than he generally gets.... Nigel plays an L5 style box (as far as I can tell) in that it's carved top with set in pick ups. He was going to play one of mine, but decided that he didn't want to in the end, so we miked his guitar and the amp. For one of the tunes IRRC we purely mic'ed the guitar.

The sound was really good I think (you can judge for yourselves when the record comes out ;-)).

Asking him about it, he says in general he tends to only mic the amp in the studio. I suppose in general he wants that soupy humbucker Wes sound.

The engineer also insisted on mic'ing all my guitars in two spots as well as the amp when used. I was playing a mix of Macaferri and archtop. It's great when an engineer cares that much!

Personally, I always like to have the guitar mic'ed even on a laminate, electric stye box - it adds 'air' and complexity to the guitar sound. I remember an engineer who did a lot of jazz recordings telling me this years ago and always sticking by it when I did my own stuff. Always sounds better than amp or DI alone to me. I always liked that early Jim Hall stuff when you hear the mix... Maybe the guitar/amp wasn't even close miced at that time?

[princeplanet]

I like the slogan from another company: "Satisfaction Demanded".
Or from Wonder Bread: "If it's good bread it's a Wonder."

Ha!

[KirkP]

I like the slogan from another company: "Satisfaction Demanded".
Or from Wonder Bread: "If it's good bread it's a Wonder."

"We rip off the other guy and pass the savings on to you!"

[mrcee]

"We rip off the other guy and pass the savings on to you!"

There you go

[princeplanet]

There you go

... and here you go...

15 Hilariously Inappropriate Ad Slogans (ad slogans, hilarious slogans, funny ad slogans) - ODDEE

there's a bunch of phoney ones but I think the real ones (like these) are funnier...

(btw, I didn't make up the ACME one, it's actually in one of the 'toons...)

[christianm77]

Hmmm, interesting case that one. As the main "troll" who has also been putting up the "it's all in fingers" argument, Joe Pass is almost an example of the opposite! I mean, I love his playing on Joy Spring, but find a lot of the DI sounding recordings almost unlistenable. The main difference is the amp tone, hence an argument for practicing with an amp. But I think more accurately, Joe may have been too blase about tone on some of those records. I bet he would have sounded better unplugged, seriously, with maybe a mic up to the strings instead!

This is why I say that the amp tone has to be complimentary to the "fingers", to enhance expression instead of quashing it. Everyone knows that listening to a straight DI tone of an electric guitar sounds like ass, it's not like what comes off the guitar to the ear at all! So the next step, the amp, has to put the natural dynamics back in there, but it can't, it's already a different playing field.

I record for a living (have done for many years), and I take DI's off guitars all the time for the purpose of re-amping (if required). For rock, you don't want any of the original dynamic, just like a keyboardist playing a synth doesn't care for his "touch" on the keys to be faithfully reproduced. But for Jazz guitar, a technique I like is to mic up the guitar as well as the cab, taking care to phase align, and bringing some real human dynamic back into the performance. It separates wheat from chaff, it really does. Good players sound better, bad players sound worse (so I turn off the gtr mic!).

If some of you feel that tone should come from the amp, that is akin to playing a synthesiser as opposed to a piano. And that's fine, whatever blows your hair back. But I'd just like to remind everyone that a modern guitar pickup is not a microphone, it's way more non linear.

Practicing with a di on headphones would be a brilliant way to working your playing. Make sure the technique is even, smooth and clean. Prob better than using an amp?

[princeplanet]

Practicing with a di on headphones would be a brilliant way to working your playing. Make sure the technique is even, smooth and clean. Prob better than using an amp?

Well, for me, I'd say yes and no... Yes because a DI is brutally honest inasmuch as it represents what leaves your guitar before it hits the amp, get that sounding musical and you're well on your way, perhaps...

But then no, because the DI is also a fake representation of your acoustic playing! Some strings or notes will not match the true acoustic performance of flesh, strings and wood. A pickup is ostensibly a magnetic field which is disturbed by string vibrations. No matter how carefully you adjust the height of pole pieces, it can never truly represent your touch the way a well positioned microphone can, which itself is imperfect.

My personal approach is simple: Make the guitar sound musical without amplification, then add amplification to, well, amplify your sound, throw it to the back of the room without taking away the nuances of the performance. An amp will always (IMO) make great playing sound worse in many ways. If you think your amp is making you sound better, then it's probably making up for something that's missing!

YMMV.

[Reg]

Yea... I've played acoustic all my life... but generally when I play in front of audiences....it just doesn't cut it. You just don't have that many choices of how to play. Playing gigs where your using just mics is tough.

If your performing with a pianos... any wind instruments etc... you need an amp. Unless your just going to do the Freddie thing. Your not going to be a single note instrument.

Acoustic performing is incredible and I always look forward to those gigs.... but those gigs are different... they're not the norm... especially when performing jazz. Bottom line... you really need to have both techniques together. I played a duo jazz gig last night with Piano... I have a real jazz guitar... If I wouldn't have use an amp.... I would have been a rhythmic hint of sound at best.

I do agree with Prince... you need to be able to play without 1st. And then if your going to perform with most jazz musicians... get your amp skills together.

[pingu]

with an amp or not ....

just make sure you practice !

[Bobalou]

All-caps on Internet posts is yelling.

But you got me grinning with this and I think you do make some good points. I try to play through the amp as much as possible, mainly because I love how the instrument sounds.

I'm glad to see someone got the humor within that post. Sarcasm can be humorous too.

Yes I too like the sound and sound shaping possibilities when playing with an amp. And that's NOT sarcasm, that's truth.

And remember I HAVE SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!
Thatvmeans its settled. No need for any further discussion or debate because I HAVE SPOKEN!

[m_d]

One of the best guitarists and musicians I've known, a former teacher, not famous but with world-class potential in my opinion, played mostly ampless during lessons on an archtop. Gee, before I came to this forum, I even thought that's what archtops were meant for, I was surprised to find out so many people seem to play amplified all the time. My teacher could manage a range of dynamics from his archtop many, many players are unable to match amplified. Personally, my archtop is too loud for late-evening practice so I use a semi-hollow and an amp to achieve lower volumes. I like both equally.

[nickel]

Practice the way you will play live on stage. It pays off.

[ronjazz]

The way you play live on stage is ALWAYS different, so practicing with the amp may not help, nor pay off.

In jazz, one can play an amplified guitar, or an electric guitar. They are two different animals.

I HAVE SPOKEN!!!

[ronjazz]

For those interested in some of the great jazz guitarists whom I have been privileged to work with as producer, I have many stories, but a couple of quick ones are relevant to this thread. Joe Pass always was more concerned about how his guitar felt than how it sounded; he was always fooling around with fingerboard oils, Fast Fret, and stuff like that, and nearly always making things worse. He had some gooey crap on his Ibanez JP model when he was at the old Jazz Workshop in Boston, and was complaining about it on every break, so I went to his hotel room after the last set one night for a lesson and hang, and he had me stop at the all-night store for some grapefruit juice to mix with his vodka. When I got to the room, I grabbed the vodka, a fairly good brand, and soaked a washcloth, then cleaned the fingerboard with it. He liked the result, except for the missing vodka.

Another time had the great Brazilian guitarist Toninho Horta booked at Berklee Performance center, and the publicist for the event, a neighbor of mine, called me in a panic two hours before the show and asked if I could lend Toninho my electric classical guitar; he, like Django, hadn't brought one with him. He wanted my Ovation, but I had just sold it to Mick Goodrick, so he played my Takamine, which he actually liked quite a lot. I directed him to the local music store to buy one of his own after the show.

Here's one I like that's more about the biz than the music: my very first foray into producing events was to book Barney Kessell and Herb Ellis for a Saturday afternoon seminar/masterclass when they were playing at the long-gone Sandy's Jazz Revival north of Boston. I went to the opening night and had an inspiration to try to set this up in only a few days, but Barney and Herb were very cooperative, came up with a fee, and I proposed the idea to Sandy on a break. He didn't like it, thought it might cut into Saturday night's business, I told him it would most likely INCREASE Saturday night's business, so he grumbled and agreed. We did the seminar, it was great, and I had sold enough tickets to break even and I had a ball. I went to the Saturday show after the seminar, and Sandy was at the door collecting as usual. I said "That was pretty cool, wasn't it?", and he said "Yes, it was. Ten dollars, please."

[mrcee]

If you play out at least practice through an amp Sometime​.

[fathand]

Do you practice with an amp or prefer not to?

I prefer not to because right now I'm not playing anywhere but home. That said, if I was gigging somewhere I would certainly practice with an amp. You have to when you're playing professionally because everything has to fit together and sound just right. You don't want to turn on your amp, start a really nice intro and all of a sudden you have this nagging feedback coming out the wazoo! Can't have that, no can do.

[nickel]

Whatever way you intend to play on stage -- whether amped, or acoustic, or both -- give fair amount time of practice in that way.

For sure amplification is a different beast from acoustic playing, and it just makes sense to practice how you will perform live, at least sometimes, whatever way that is.