Practice guitar with an amp - or not?

**Doctor Jeff** · 12-30-2015, 04:34 PM

I love that set, especially the mid-century modern furniture. What a treat to be able to see a thoughtful discussion between Wes and an obviously knowledgeably (if wordy) interviewer. Smoking on the set though--don't miss that.

Interesting accent Wes has--when he was saying "playing chords", he pronounces it like "playin' cards".

**lawson-stone** · 12-30-2015, 05:17 PM

So ironic. The guy disses the companies that made pop music, and then asks Wes to play "Wendy"! Geeze.

**HR Fan** · 12-31-2015, 06:55 AM

Hi
I enjoy plugging headphones so as to enjoy the tone of the amp yet not get anybody else's attention : )

**HR Fan** · 12-31-2015, 07:03 AM

I love the part where Wes mentioned Joe Diorio's name !!
Joe had told me about first meeting Wes in Chicago...

**Groyniad** · 12-31-2015, 10:26 AM

i'm very conscious of how important sustaining the note until the next one starts sounding is on guitar

this is what happens sort of by itself on horns, flutes, and pianos. but on guitar - if you don't work at it really hard - you get little gaps between all the notes - and that makes fluidity and grace very very hard to achieve.

and its incredibly important to the overall sound - the effect - of your playing

peter bernstein sounds like he does primarily because he has addressed this guitar issue and pretty much solved it.

but all the good players find a way at least to minimize the problem.

i think its easier to apply yourself to this issue seriously if you use an amp to practice. the amp has to be non-boomy and not on the edge of feeding back - because that makes you release the note so as to prevent boom/feedback.

**christianm77** · 01-01-2016, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

i'm very conscious of how important sustaining the note until the next one starts sounding is on guitar

this is what happens sort of by itself on horns, flutes, and pianos. but on guitar - if you don't work at it really hard - you get little gaps between all the notes - and that makes fluidity and grace very very hard to achieve.

and its incredibly important to the overall sound - the effect - of your playing

peter bernstein sounds like he does primarily because he has addressed this guitar issue and pretty much solved it.

but all the good players find a way at least to minimize the problem.

i think its easier to apply yourself to this issue seriously if you use an amp to practice. the amp has to be non-boomy and not on the edge of feeding back - because that makes you release the note so as to prevent boom/feedback.

Legato is very important. I do find work with an amp tends to highlight this as you get so much more sustain, but it is an effect I want to achieve equally on acoustic.

Peter B's legato is a thing of beauty...

**WillMbCdn5** · 01-01-2016, 11:05 PM

I have been making the effort to practice amplified - I recently purchased a looper to create and practice chord loops to improvise over . Yike it is very easy to be sloppy and think you are doing fine unamplified - amplify and record is an eye opener

) in a good way.

Will

**Irez87** · 01-02-2016, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Legato is very important. I do find work with an amp tends to highlight this as you get so much more sustain, but it is an effect I want to achieve equally on acoustic.

Peter B's legato is a thing of beauty...

Practice legato without an amp. I practiced legato technique for years with the George Van Eps exercises. I can still hear my teacher say (the one who got me into GVE), "okay... but that wasn't a smooth transition between those two triads. Practice those two triads until you can barely hear a gap"

Then we did the same with the Segovia fingerings, the shifts were the hardest part... he wanted them to sound completely connected without excuse. Well, years later and I have gotten a little better. But he stressed on thing, don't practice these things with an amp.

I practice other things with an amp, but the sustain is something I try to control under my own power.

**princeplanet** · 01-02-2016, 12:07 PM

OK, so most of you seem to suggest that practicing unplugged will make slop go unnoticed. I find this interesting as I find the opposite is true in my case. Mind you, I'm talking here specifically about single line playing (I like brisk tempos). I like dynamics, I want the dynamic range of a horn, so playing LOUD for some notes is as important as playing very soft for others.

Practicing unplugged is great for learning how to control your sound while striking the strings hard. Then, when you plug in, you can easily go back to playing everything softer, but bust out the odd loud notes without losing control. When I practice for long periods plugged in, my pick hand gets lazy and my synchronisation can get sloppy because I don't have to work as hard to produce the note- just pressing down on the fret produces a note regardless of when the string is struck....

So I say that the sound starts with the fingers (ok, the head first maybe...). I insist you should sound dynamic and compelling even on an unplugged Les Paul before you deserve to plug in to anything! But I'm a bit extreme in that I don't like many guitar players at all, most are relying on the amplification to create their tone. Turn the amp off and you'd hear undynamic and non compelling expression. Tell a (sonic) story without an amp, then add an amp to that sound that captures or enhances the natural dynamic range, not compresses it (like with most players). I'm not an acoustic purist BTW, I love amps and gizmos as much (actually probably more) as the next guy. In fact I make a living recording guitars and have done for a long time, so I think I know where good tone comes from. I used to think it was gear, but you quickly find out that player A sounds very different to player B through exactly the same guitar/rig set up.

Again, it's in the fingers, and the best way for me to develop that aspect is to practice unplugged 80% of the time with much of that time looking at my picking hand in order to get it as clean and mean as I can. The other 20% spent plugged in absolutely exposes other habits developed from unplugged playing (noise, mute issues etc) but these I find easy to remedy after a few minutes. However, practicing amplified always will compound certain habits that may never be remedied....

**Irez87** · 01-02-2016, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

OK, so most of you seem to suggest that practicing unplugged will make slop go unnoticed. I find this interesting as I find the opposite is true in my case. Mind you, I'm talking here specifically about single line playing (I like brisk tempos). I like dynamics, I want the dynamic range of a horn, so playing LOUD for some notes is as important as playing very soft for others.

Practicing unplugged is great for learning how to control your sound while striking the strings hard. Then, when you plug in, you can easily go back to playing everything softer, but bust out the odd loud notes without losing control. When I practice for long periods plugged in, my pick hand gets lazy and my synchronisation can get sloppy because I don't have to work as hard to produce the note- just pressing down on the fret produces a note regardless of when the string is struck....

So I say that the sound starts with the fingers (ok, the head first maybe...). I insist you should sound dynamic and compelling even on an unplugged Les Paul before you deserve to plug in to anything! But I'm a bit extreme in that I don't like many guitar players at all, most are relying on the amplification to create their tone. Turn the amp off and you'd hear undynamic and non compelling expression. Tell a (sonic) story without an amp, then add an amp to that sound that captures or enhances the natural dynamic range, not compresses it (like with most players). I'm not an acoustic purist BTW, I love amps and gizmos as much (actually probably more) as the next guy. In fact I make a living recording guitars and have done for a long time, so I think I know where good tone comes from. I used to think it was gear, but you quickly find out that player A sounds very different to player B through exactly the same guitar/rig set up.

Again, it's in the fingers, and the best way for me to develop that aspect is to practice unplugged 80% of the time with much of that time looking at my picking hand in order to get it as clean and mean as I can. The other 20% spent plugged in absolutely exposes other habits developed from unplugged playing (noise, mute issues etc) but these I find easy to remedy after a few minutes. However, practicing amplified always will compound certain habits that may never be remedied....

Thank you. It feels good when I am not alone in practicing the words of wisdom that I've learned from the older cats. Tone is in the fingers. Music is story telling. Sound is dynamic. Yes, yes, and more yes

**christianm77** · 01-02-2016, 03:09 PM

Part of the reason I started this thread was that there seems to be an apparent contradiction from teacher to teacher (ain't it always the way?) Sheryl Bailey advises students to practice with an amp.

Myself, I'm hedging my bets.... Today I've practiced acoustic. Another day I might plug in....

An interesting issue regarding dynamic range. I once heard that someone once measured the actual physical volume level of the Berlin Philharmonic and found it to be surprisingly small. Yet they could still produce a tremendous fortissimo and a intense pianissimo - perhaps as well if not better than any orchestra in the world.

Dynamics is not volume level, necessarily. Interesting thought...

I hate the idea that someones tone is based in their gear. This is true for none of my favourite players.

**Groyniad** · 01-02-2016, 04:37 PM

i agree entirely that your tone is in your ear and then your fingers - and even that its crucial to spend a lot of time learning how to make the guitar itself sing rather than relying on an amp. i think solid-body guitars are as unappealing as they are to most jazz players because they involve much too much reliance on electrical stuff and not enough on something organic and genuinely expressive.

but ultimately - someone like peter b. shows that you have to play the amp. as much as possible too - if you want a REALLY musical amplified voice. but i suspect pb started by learning how to make the guitar sing before he learned how to get that singing tone at amplified volumes.

its very interesting to me to hear people recommend acoustic playing in order to learn how to play smoothly with real legato feel.

i can dig that too (i've never been happy enough with an amp. to use one for practice that much).

**docbop** · 01-02-2016, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Part of the reason I started this thread was that there seems to be an apparent contradiction from teacher to teacher (ain't it always the way?) Sheryl Bailey advises students to practice with an amp.

Myself, I'm hedging my bets.... Today I've practiced acoustic. Another day I might plug in....

An interesting issue regarding dynamic range. I once heard that someone once measured the actual physical volume level of the Berlin Philharmonic and found it to be surprisingly small. Yet they could still produce a tremendous fortissimo and a intense pianissimo - perhaps as well if not better than any orchestra in the world.

Dynamics is not volume level, necessarily. Interesting thought...

I hate the idea that someones tone is based in their gear. This is true for none of my favourite players.

Thinking about this over time thread has gone on. If you're playing live with an amp you need to know how to use it to bring out your dynamics and phrasing how to adjust your playing to using an amp. I remember coming up and friends going into loud rock bands and using Marshall stacks for first time and saying they had to learn to play loud that the amp requres a different approach, it's not just turn up and play the same. So learning to work with any amp big or small is part of learning the pluses and minuses of that amp and your technique.

Also practicing without an amp all the time can change your technique from over picking too hard. Bruce Forman talks about it in his video. Think of a baseball player they use a weighted bat to get loose, but they don't practice with it because it can mess up their timing. Trumpet players have similar complaint that they get told to use there mutes to keep their volume down practicing, but the mute changes the pressure so they need to time practice without it so they can play normally.

So the issue isn't practice only with and amp, it's you need to spend enough time with it so you learn to use it to your advantage. Now if you're playing gig regularly with an amp then it less important at home in the shed. As a young player you need to work with the amp as part of developing your technique. I point this stuff out because these threads start getting so black and white in the responses making assumptions that people are factoring the gray area like are you gigging regularly or have spent time working on your amp related to your technique.

**christianm77** · 01-03-2016, 07:47 AM

Marshall's are hard to play actually.... Plexi's in particular...

**rcpj** · 01-03-2016, 12:05 PM

As a full time fingerstyle player, I feel it is important to prac with amp as well as without. One main reason is so you can be aware of/control the right hand damping of any unwanted sounds that occasionally occur. Without an amp these unwanted sounds are not as apparent..

**DanielleOM** · 01-03-2016, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh the other reason why it is a VERY good idea to own an AER is that singers love the mic channel, and you may get booked on the basis of owning one. It's a bit crap, but it is the reality of gigging.

I tried one (Compact 60) a little while ago in a shop. With controls flat I liked what I was hearing from a Benedetto Bravo (A6 pickup).

**sgcim** · 01-04-2016, 01:37 AM

I always practice acoustically, unless I've got a loud gig coming up.
If you can't get a good tone acoustically, you should stick to rock/fusion playing.

I just saw a video of Eric Clapton playing on an archtop at a show he did with Jeff Beck.
He sounded like a beginner. So much for the theory that only guitarists with large, meaty fingers can get a good sound on a guitar; Clapton's first finger is like a thick stick of pepperoni!

That asinine theory was proposed by both a guitarist on another guitar website, and the jazz writer Gene Lees.

**lawson-stone** · 01-04-2016, 11:33 PM

I actually practice with the amp just because I love the sound. Electric arch top tone and jazz chords are what drew me to jazz in the first place. Love an arch top through a Polytone!

**wizard3739** · 01-05-2016, 01:49 PM

I use a Jim Hall Sadowsky guitar and an Acoustik Image Amp with a Raezers Edge Speaker. This combo gives me all the guitar sound and tone I need. I always practice and gig with this combination because I truly believe a good guitar tone is not complete without the amp. IE, the amp is a very necessary integral part of the guitar for my styles of playing.

wiz

**mrcee** · 01-05-2016, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Part of the reason I started this thread was that there seems to be an apparent contradiction from teacher to teacher (ain't it always the way?) Sheryl Bailey advises students to practice with an amp.

Myself, I'm hedging my bets.... Today I've practiced acoustic. Another day I might plug in....

An interesting issue regarding dynamic range. I once heard that someone once measured the actual physical volume level of the Berlin Philharmonic and found it to be surprisingly small. Yet they could still produce a tremendous fortissimo and a intense pianissimo - perhaps as well if not better than any orchestra in the world.

Dynamics is not volume level, necessarily. Interesting thought...

I hate the idea that someones tone is based in their gear. This is true for none of my favourite players.

.
This reminds me of something that I once heard. That stereo amp set ups don't increase the decibel level. For
instance if you play through one Princeton with the volume at 4 it will be no less loud than going through 2
Princetons, with a Y or splitter, each set at 4. In other words multiples of the same amp at the same volume won't raise the decibels. Seems hard to believe to me. Any opinions?

**KirkP** · 01-06-2016, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by mrcee

.
This reminds me of something that I once heard. That stereo amp set ups don't increase the decibel level. For
instance if you play through one Princeton with the volume at 4 it will be no less loud than going through 2
Princetons, with a Y or splitter, each set at 4. In other words multiples of the same amp at the same volume won't raise the decibels. Seems hard to believe to me. Any opinions?

If you were to stack them directly on top of each other at ear level in an anechoic chamber you'd have a two-element line array, increasing the gain by 6dB since they are in-phase.

But typically two amps would not be stacked, and in a room with many reflecting surfaces, tending to randomize the phase, especially if the ear is some distance from the speakers. With random phase the average sound pressure level received at the ear would increase about 3db. Human hearing tends to compress volume changes, so while 3db is twice the power, it's barely perceptible under normal conditions. 3db is also what you'd get from doubling the power output from a single amp.

When I use two amps, it's more for dispersing the sound than to increase the volume level. It's also nice to have different reverb settings on the two amps for more ambience. Ambience can be great for solo and small ensemble, but it's not always desirable for larger ensembles or fast tempos where you need punchy and distinct tone.

This video demonstrates how the ear responds to changes in sound pressure level from 1db to 10db.

**whiskey02** · 01-07-2016, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by mrcee

.
This reminds me of something that I once heard. That stereo amp set ups don't increase the decibel level. For
instance if you play through one Princeton with the volume at 4 it will be no less loud than going through 2
Princetons, with a Y or splitter, each set at 4. In other words multiples of the same amp at the same volume won't raise the decibels. Seems hard to believe to me. Any opinions?

Absolutely not true. If it were so, then 70,000 human voices in a football stadium would be no louder than one cheering fan.

**mrcee** · 01-07-2016, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by whiskey02

Absolutely not true. If it were so, then 70,000 human voices in a football stadium would be no louder than one cheering fan.

I'll buy that.

**docbop** · 01-07-2016, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by whiskey02

Absolutely not true. If it were so, then 70,000 human voices in a football stadium would be no louder than one cheering fan.

It's all about how much air your moving. That's why a Super Reverb with 4x10" sounds louder than a 1x12". Dual amps are more paper moving more air. Why they fly PA systems now because having them low in the past the audience was block the air movement.

**KirkP** · 01-07-2016, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

It's all about how much air your moving. That's why a Super Reverb with 4x10" sounds louder than a 1x12". Dual amps are more paper moving more air. Why they fly PA systems now because having them low in the past the audience was block the air movement.

Assuming the power output of the amp and the speaker efficiencies are fixed, the 4x10" will be louder near the axis of the cabinet because an array is more directional (higher directivity) than a single speaker. Being more directional also means the volume will fall off more quickly off axis for the 4x10" array than for a single 12". That makes sense from a conservation of energy viewpoint. The difference in directivity can work for or against you, depending on the acoustics of the room you are in.

If you instead put each of the 10" speakers into 4 separate cabinets driven by a single Super Reverb amp and place them randomly you no longer have an array, so you're unlikely to have increased volume in front of the stage, even though you are "pushing more air". You'll have more ambience though, due to all the reflections. Again, that can work for or against you.

(Sorry, but I enjoy thinking about this stuff.)