Picking technique of Jonathan Kreisberg

[christianm77]

Dunno, I alternate picked for years and my time was crap. On the other hand there are plenty of great players who economy pick who have great time. But in general there's no need to economy pick at moderate speeds..

[ginod]

thanks. but i have also say, i don't think, that this is the reason for his great time. i switched to economy before years of alternate, and my time is even better with economy, because many things are easier to play. I think there is not a big difference when you play between to strings, but to play One-Note per String Arpeggio in Alternate Picking for me is horror and my time lags. I played all alternate picking a long long time, but now it feels so free and smooth to play economy for one note per string things. At the moment i mix both, i play kind of gypsy Picking (Downwardpickslanting) and reversed Gypsy (in Upwardpickslanting). So i if the pick is already lying on the next string, i make economy, and is the pick in the air, i make alternate picking or better say outside picking.

I think the approach of Jonathan is a little bit different, because i think he never thought about what he is doing. But like you say, it seems he sweep if he want to play a "Sweeping Lick", so i would say, he sweeps if he want to play one note per string arpeggio.

[Fidelcaster]

On the contrary, I think Kreisberg's technique is very rational and well-thought-out. I suspect he conceives technique as classical players do, as a means to musical, rather than strictly practical, ends.

[Staffan William-Olsson]

Players like Pat Metheny and John Scofield never sweep (except maybe for a very occasional big arpeggio) but still don't sound like machine guns. That's because they hammer-on and pull-off a lot of notes; often the last note before changing strings. The pick will have extra time to travel, and it's not crucial if the next note is a downstroke or an upstroke.

Imo, the players with the most solid time and articulation play downbeats with downstrokes and the "ands" with upstrokes. A series of syncopated notes will be all upstrokes. When playing rhythm guitar in a funk band, you often have a rhythm going in your wrist or arm, starting with a downstroke on the downbeat. Even when you're silent for a bar, you're playing "air tambourine" with your wrist.

Economy picking can sound great in really fast tempos, and in slow tempos you get the intimacy of the rest stroke. The payoff is that medium swing can be very hard to play cleanly and with conviction.

[ginod]

long time i had also the opinion, that your right hand should be like a clock. Every Downbeat a Downstroke, every Upbeat a Upbeat depending on the microtome. My teacher in music college told me from a student who practice really serious in this kind of picking. My teacher told me, that he got a little bit problems later. His right arm was very busy and he was unable to break this rule, to play things we already talked about. When you want to play legato, you have to concentrate to play without picking, so your Time Feel should come of your brain, legs, heart however you wanna name it.

Players like Adam Rogers have got a killer time with nailing lines like a machine, and he is plays only economy. For me he has better time and nailing his stuff even better than many alternate Picking Players i know.

For good players it should be no problem to hit beats no matter if he do this with a down or upstroke. The reason we play constant alternate depending on microtome in funk comping etc. is that this is the most comfortable way to do this, there is no reason to make it different, but if you want to get a typical sound, you change this rule. Some players like Russell Malone and Mike Moreno only plays downstroke on 8th notes and we also do this when we comp in jazz swing style.

But this is a big topic for discussion. Similar like some people say you should step with your foot and others say, no thats destroy your time.

[Fidelcaster]

So what is this guy doing ?

For my conjecture and PMB's first-hand knowledge, see above: Picking technique of Jonathan Kreisberg

[christianm77]

long time i had also the opinion, that your right hand should be like a clock. Every Downbeat a Downstroke, every Upbeat a Upbeat depending on the microtome. My teacher in music college told me from a student who practice really serious in this kind of picking. My teacher told me, that he got a little bit problems later. His right arm was very busy and he was unable to break this rule, to play things we already talked about. When you want to play legato, you have to concentrate to play without picking, so your Time Feel should come of your brain, legs, heart however you wanna name it.

Players like Adam Rogers have got a killer time with nailing lines like a machine, and he is plays only economy. For me he has better time and nailing his stuff even better than many alternate Picking Players i know.

For good players it should be no problem to hit beats no matter if he do this with a down or upstroke. The reason we play constant alternate depending on microtome in funk comping etc. is that this is the most comfortable way to do this, there is no reason to make it different, but if you want to get a typical sound, you change this rule. Some players like Russell Malone and Mike Moreno only plays downstroke on 8th notes and we also do this when we comp in jazz swing style.

But this is a big topic for discussion. Similar like some people say you should step with your foot and others say, no thats destroy your time.

Good post. I'm skeptical of pat answers on any of this stuff.

Sometimes it's a really good idea to play rhythm parts with downstrokes on up beats for example. Feeling an offbeat as a downbeat is an important part of syncopated music.

I love Adam Roger's time, it's greasy and funky.

He says in his mymusicmasterclass lesson that he uses a mix of alternate picking and economy, as I would think the majority of contemporary electric jazz guitarists do. No idea what JK does, but I would be surprised it it wasn't a combination of the two. However, I like to be surprised.

Moreno is downstrokes only where possible and economy picking with hammer ons, pull offs and slides for faster stuff.

I think very few contemporary guys are in fact pure alternate pickers - Pat Martino perhaps?

Alternate picking with hammer ons and pull offs ought to work fine for a flowing, legato sound I would have thought. EDIT: oh that's what JK does then. Fair enough.

[Robertkoa]

Players like Pat Metheny and John Scofield never sweep (except maybe for a very occasional big arpeggio) but still don't sound like machine guns. That's because they hammer-on and pull-off a lot of notes; often the last note before changing strings. The pick will have extra time to travel, and it's not crucial if the next note is a downstroke or an upstroke.

Imo, the players with the most solid time and articulation play downbeats with downstrokes and the "ands" with upstrokes. A series of syncopated notes will be all upstrokes. When playing rhythm guitar in a funk band, you often have a rhythm going in your wrist or arm, starting with a downstroke on the downbeat. Even when you're silent for a bar, you're playing "air tambourine" with your wrist.

Economy picking can sound great in really fast tempos, and in slow tempos you get the intimacy of the rest stroke. The payoff is that medium swing can be very hard to play cleanly and with conviction.

I am new to Jazz ( not learning it to play Standards though) but mastered having upstrokes and downstrokes
sound the same and being able to accent either one decades ago...so I can syncopate or swing hard and have twice as many spots to do it as 'accent the downstroke only guys' but I look to Jazzers as Master Musicians not as master chops guys except for a handful of Guitarists.
And I agree ..most of the sweep pickers have trouble actually using it as a steady picking technique except Gambale .
I noticed a Guy - Adam Rogers using some tricky economy and sweep picking and playing in Time - but I like more *reckless Players like Benson ,Norman Brown and Kriesburg who seem more sure handed time wise..
*I mean reckless in the best sense of the word- a lot of the trickier Players sound ' careful' when they play.
I developed my picking so I don't sound 'careful' any more...
IF a Player can really do all that gear shifting from one technique like alternate to economy to sweeping and it works ..why not .

I personally can't imagine having to adjust phrases so not only do I need a melodic cadence at each phrase ending...but I have to have downstrokes always land on downbeats...this stuff is complicated already for me..I am stacking vertically sometimes and playing with Rhythms in the lines...I could never have complicated picking schemes or I would need to live to 140 to play...
Playing with good pick technique- you should be able to do a Tremelo on one note like the Classical Etudes and both strokes should sound the same...and then extend that to chromatics and accents and syncopations accenting up or downstrokes equally- in Rock it's maybe less important but Jazz or Rhythmic Styles...

[Fidelcaster]

By the way, I've read Kreisberg in his early days opened for the Steve Morse Band. Having seen him playing one-note-per-string arpeggios with strict alternate picking at lightning speed, I wonder if Morse was an influence on his technique.

[christianm77]

By the way, I've read Kreisberg in his early days opened for the Steve Morse Band. Having seen him playing one-note-per-string arpeggios with strict alternate picking at lightning speed, I wonder if Morse was an influence on his technique.

Wouldn't surprise me

[christianm77]

TBH all this talk of whether to use economy picking, alternate, left hand articulation etc - the answer to all of this, I think, is yes.

Practice it all. Then, when you are technically fluent in all these approaches allow the shape of the musical phrase to dictate your technique either intuitively or consciously.

No two players will have the same way of doing this, but it all goes into creating your own voice.

Just don't do that goofy 'now I shall do sweep picking' thing - I hate that. IMO a guitarists technique should be organic, not a set of set pieces. This is what the modern guys do very very well.

[Jonah]

From memory and observation, I would say that JK does not have a fixed approach to picking and that he would say "do whatever it takes to get the music out". He was against any strict approach that might impact on your musical choices - for example, a strict 3 notes per string, sweeping technique.

In the interview I heard him say that he usually practices with limitations... I think though it is a common way to practice some technical ideas...

Any 'strict' techique is good for practice techique. Not for playing music.. seems obvious.

he difinitely seems to be a guy who did (and probably does) a lot of practice.
His playing show this.... I would say that it is a part of his esthetics even...


As per "do whatever it takes to get the music out" ---

'to do whatever' means to do a lot of practice... becasue actually you cannot properly estimate musical value of technique unless you master it freely...
And how can you do 'whatever' unless you do everything in every way?

One of the things many of us try to do is an attempt to find one way... one path... where actually we have the map of the world to explore... and then walk whereever we want with your eyes closed.

[christianm77]

In the interview I heard him say that he usually practices with limitations... I think though it is a common way to practice some technical ideas...

Any 'strict' techique is good for practice techique. Not for playing music.. seems obvious.

he difinitely seems to be a guy who did (and probably does) a lot of practice.
His playing show this.... I would say that it is a part of his esthetics even...


As per "do whatever it takes to get the music out" ---

'to do whatever' means to do a lot of practice... becasue actually you cannot properly estimate musical value of technique unless you master it freely...
And how can you do 'whatever' unless you do everything in every way?

One of the things many of us try to do is an attempt to find one way... one path... where actually we have the map of the world to explore... and then walk whereever we want with your eyes closed.

I don't know. I get the impression that some people like to practice the same thing because it's 'their' thing. Definitely gone through phases like that myself. IMO it's a bit limiting.

[Jonah]

I don't know. I get the impression that some people like to practice the same thing because it's 'their' thing. Definitely gone through phases like that myself. IMO it's a bit limiting.

I don't know too)))


Once I took a few private lessons from a pro player... accomplished player, but with his own musical and technical approach...
fantastic guy with lost of stories behind... he lived in States about 15 years and he used to play with many greats and was especially close with Attila Zoller last years of his life...

One of the things that impressed me was when we discussed some scale... he began to noodle about it and speaking out loud... something like: ok let's see how it sounds... or this sounds.. hm maybe this...

and I noticed that all he actually thinks of is playing chord tones and note in between - and this way apprlying diiferent scales... quite simple way of thinking (though not necessarily for me, or for everybody)....

what impressed me was that he was fluently playing all over the fretboard up - down - diagonally... with any idea that he spoke out loud simultaneously...

Something like: hm.. what if we play here b natural instead of b flat? and he runs fastly weaverung through all over the fretborad this chord scale just with b natural.. then hm.. I do not like the sound here - let's raiswe 5th and he does it all with raise 5th...
All this he does just looking somwhere upwards - litnening to the sound..

This was when I really got that I have just to work through some things... and that's it.

We talked it a bit.. and he said - well fingering.. some play it like this (and he runs it all)... some like this (and he does it)... some like that (and he does it again) .. and I do usually like this...

But he did all of these very easily...

And then he added... and maybe I do all of them...

Btw ... the funny thing he did was playing scale upwards moving down the neck...

It's not that we should practice all that stuff - but as a result.. I think the way he noodled with a song and scales around all the fretboard is the result of years of different practices...

He used to qoute Parker (?): 'learn your instrument.. learn the tune... blow it...' and he added for the first part we will have something to do even if we live 100 years more...

Actually it was the first time when I considered that I have to separate technical practice from playing music... when i do technical patterns or something I do not think of music (even if I go through actual changes)... I just think of keeping the limitations I set...

When I play music... no limitations.. I think only of tunes, melody developing... My idea that the practice I did will just liberate me in doing music.

[Jonah]

I get the impression that some people like to practice the same thing because it's 'their' thing

But I think if you practice technique you come to the point where you're done with it... and you either just stop practicing or find some new thing to practice...

How is it possible to practice the same thing ever?

Note I do not speaking about warming up excercises that can really be the same all the way through ... if you need warming up.

[christianm77]

But I think if you practice technique you come to the point where you're done with it... and you either just stop practicing or find some new thing to practice...

How is it possible to practice the same thing ever?

Note I do not speaking about warming up excercises that can really be the same all the way through ... if you need warming up.

It's possible to get stuck. Happens all the time. I blame the ethic of if you aren't getting anywhere you must work harder at the same thing. I've had this problem in the past.

Nothing wrong with a work ethic, but you have to work smart as well as hard. IMO most of the gains to be found with anything are in the first few hours. When you stop making gains, time to switch to something else. Perhaps a related exercise, but still something fresh.

[Jonah]

It's possible to get stuck. Happens all the time. I blame the ethic of if you aren't getting anywhere you must work harder at the same thing. I've had this problem in the past.

Nothing wrong with a work ethic, but you have to work smart as well as hard. IMO most of the gains to be found with anything are in the first few hours. When you stop making gains, time to switch to something else. Perhaps a related exercise, but still something fresh.

I think it's also kind of personal psycology... for me it's not routine... when I practice technique I also have fun...
some people don't...
sometimes I have to push myself a bit to start... but in general I never do anything that's not fun for me. Even if it is a challenge..

As I said I try to avoid direct relation of 'technical practice' with 'music performance'.. I never do like 'ok... I practice that stuff .. let's apply it now into soloing'...

I compare it to ballet dancer who feels that his legs are week for this 'pas-de-deux'.. so he goes to teh gym and jsut work a bit to get it more trained... then back on the stage he does not thing of teh excercises - just feels comfortable to do artistic dance...

But there's backwards relation... of course we chould be able to understand where the weak point is...

We may think that we need inspiration or miracle or another concept... to fulfil this incredible jump in the pas-de-deux properly... we feel frustrated...

But then someone comes and says: hey.. but you just need stronger legs man...

[Robertkoa]

TBH all this talk of whether to use economy picking, alternate, left hand articulation etc - the answer to all of this, I think, is yes.

Practice it all. Then, when you are technically fluent in all these approaches allow the shape of the musical phrase to dictate your technique either intuitively or consciously.

No two players will have the same way of doing this, but it all goes into creating your own voice.

Just don't do that goofy 'now I shall do sweep picking' thing - I hate that. IMO a guitarists technique should be organic, not a set of set pieces. This is what the modern guys do very very well.

The Internet makes a lot of names for picking...a few years ago in a Music Store store when trying out a Guitar
I got into a debate with someone who asked me about 'sweeping'.
The 'Debate' was whether I was 'sweeping' lol. I lost the Debate...but I was alternating across the strings in hard time..which few 'sweepers' can do ...this is now known as 'Cross Picking' which adds to the 30 (? )other names for picking Styles.

I am sure as a Teacher- you need to be aware and learn in case someone wants to 'get' a certain Style down...
And there may be some accomplished Players who can effortlessly switch from one Style to another in the middle of a Phrase..like the
"How would you pick this line " Threads with 20 different answers and as many as 4 Gear shifts suggested for one improvised Phrase.

My opinion is that when you see and hear a Player with 'reckless precision' meaning they can rip it up or play slow In Time consistently AND do not sound like they are being 'careful' and timid ( that's the reckless precision part) whether it's Benson , McLaughlin, Kriesberg, Van Halen, etc. Even Gambale - one of the very few 'sweepers' with this Quality- they have a very consistent simple approach .
If you are just starting or re calibrating your Technique I would definitely do some Tremolo exercises and get upstrokes and downstrokes sounding the same( or very close ) and able to accent either one.
The thing about downstrokes on downbeats is a ridiculous limitation to start with IMO -if you want to get serious on Guitar.

Can people still play great using that limitation ?
Absolutely- they have and do.
Even all downstrokes with thumb - sure.
All upstroke Tuesdays ?- lol.
There are lots of Players who are much better than I am who have limited picking skills ...David Gilmour ..tons of Jazz Guys amateur and Pros etc.
What I do or don't with it is another thing..

A good test of overall technique is -if you can fairly easily play what's in your mind - fine!
Don't even worry about it...just play and keep going.



But just saying ...if you were going to study picking that's your first step ...double the Rhythmic usability of all your Phrases ....get upstrokes equal.