-
at the start - and until recently - i thought the really important thing was that fingerings be memorable - easy to retain - to visualize on the neck etc.
this is part of what makes the position or cage system so appealing - its easy to visualize a pattern in a block going straight across the neck
----
but now i think this is way wrong - importantly wrong
now i think that the thing with fingerings is to make them easy to execute (once you have memorized them - once they are second nature)
with this as a priority fingerings tend to take you in a diagonal direction up and back down the neck (and this incidentally falls in much better with the way harmony actually maps itself out on the fretboard) - so they don't come in blocks that you can take in at a glance when you look at the fretboard. instead they cover so much territory that they can't be taken in visually in a moment. i think you tend to remember them more with your hands than with your eyes (so to speak) - its muscle-memory that guides you up and down the neck more than an imagined visible pattern. this can feel like 'flying blind' to someone who has spent so long trying to memorize visible fretboard patterns - but the more you practice the better your hand's memory gets (so to speak).
what has convinced me that the second approach is right is just the totally simple fact that i could not make my block patterns work for me at high tempos (or in double time passages). they were consistently awkward to finger and hard to phrase musically with. you have to find ways to finger your sounds so that you can move up and down freely (without hitting 'walls') and at high speed. the only way to do this is to find fingerings that are really easy to - finger.
it will take me a very very very long time to internalize the new fingerings so that they become mine - so that they are second nature to me. at the same time as making this happen, i'm working hard at right hand stuff - so its two birds with one stone sort of thing. i hope.
going well so far - but thought i'd try to share the basic idea all the work is built on.
-
12-10-2015 10:00 AM
-
I've recently begun Richie Zellon's bebop course, which is designed to take a year. The first thing you learn is some fingerings for the mixolydian scale. (The context of the teaching is the blues, starting with a simple I-IV-V blues and working up to a "Bird" blues.) I figured they would be like fingerings that I had already learned, and in many ways they are, but what came as a revelation to me is that Richie sets up the fingerings so that it becomes natural / easy to play through a cycle of changes in one position. (He also shows you how to do it "horizontally" but he thinks most players are weak in their "vertical" understanding and boy was that true in my case.) I wondered why I had never thought about it this way before, but it makes such good sense: I mean, how often do you want to play, say, C major all up and down the neck? But being called to switch from, say, D7 to G7 to C7 to F7 (-the rhythm bridge) at a brisk tempo is an everyday thing.
So to answer your question now I would say: what's important about fingerings is that they facilitate playing through a cycle of changes / keys easily
-
Yea... being able to play everything in one position.... and that position is the entire neck. That should be the goal.
The fingerings should be there before you actually perform.
Fingerings are like.... your going to play something on a guitar, before you actually perform that something.... you need to have the guitar. The fretboard and fingerings are just part of the guitar.
Eventually fingerings just become a tool you use to create phrasing, articulation.... even flash or show effect on stage.
I'm not a fan of using performance to teach fingerings, I believe the two should be Practiced separately but i'm sure it works OK.
Technical practice and performance practice.
-
I agree, Reg. And you're absolutely right about the whole neck being one grid (-once you really know it) but I didn't really know it. But that's what I'm getting now. It's a whole new deal. I can cycle through all 12 keys several times over without having to think about it. (I notice I don't look at my hands as much now, either.) Not that I've got it all down, far from it, but at last I'm on the road that will get me there.
Originally Posted by Reg
-
i wonder how long it tends to take to really start to be able to see the neck as one position in 12 keys for single notes and chords - there's a huge ongoing temptation to bottle out of the whole process when you feel like you've got enough of the neck down to get by in most circumstances. Its only re-vamping my right hand that has led me to take such a huge re-learning project seriously. its daunting - but it has always felt to me like it is a finite amount of work.
of course i agree mark that being able to see the changes clearly and have good fingerings for making them fluidly is crucial.
i think i did myself huge favours at the beginning by focusing endless attention on e.g. what happens when a two chord BECOMES a five chord (tonic stays where it is and becomes the fifth; third moves up a tone and becomes the tonic or stays where it is and becomes the seventh; fifth moves down a tone and becomes the tonic or up a tone and becomes the third etc. etc.) - all these movements are the same with every change of course - i.e. what happens to the 2 when it becomes the five is the same thing that happens to the five when it becomes the one - or to the 6 when it becomes the 2 etc.)
but the point stands that the important thing is not being able to 'see' where the change is on the neck but being able to play it (or through it or whatever) fluidly and easily. this - and not being able to visualize the change on the neck - should be your priority when you're working out fingerings to make classic cycle-based changes.
this approach may take extra work at the memorization stage - because the fingerings are optimized for ease of execution rather than ease of recall or visualizability. you're always asking yourself - how should i arrange this line (through several changes) on the neck? - and you should always be answering in a way that makes the line easy to execute (fluid - graceful even) rather than in a way that makes the line easy to 'see' etc. etc. you make up for this by doing loads and loads of work on the fingerings for all the sounds you are using - so they become second nature (just like reg said the harmonic patterns are built into the guitar - you could say that the knowledge of them, the capacity to access them and play them is (or gets) built into your body (its not a series of interconnected mental pictures of fretboard patterns in your mind).
-
Over the last couple years I feel more and more comfortable on the neck for reading, improv, and chording. What changed is I started looking at things in smaller pieces instead of the big two octave type chunks more guitar players do.
It actually started after the last time I switched to bass and worked a lot on scales and etc on one and two strings. Then a bass improv teacher where we worked based on ranges of the neck. When I switched back to guitar that stuff came with me and I started down same path one and two string for scales. Then my teacher had be improv for awhile using only two strings. Then I moved away from studying guitar materials and using horn or all instrument materials so I had to come up with fingerings. That got me to focus on viewing things in an octave or less. That got me to where I could start a scale, arp, whatever from pretty much anywhere. I was look more at notes first then some pattern for what I wanted to do, instead of how guitar player tend to think pattern first, and where is what I want withing the pattern.
So the smaller the my view the better the BIG picture of the neck has become for me.
-
agreed but i would say Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
"what's important about fingerings is that they facilitate playing - whatever it is that you're playing - more easily
-
i'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense Originally Posted by Groyniad
-
Well, any normal scale fingering is fine if you're just playing that scale. But when you're playing a fast bop tune with many changes, you have to have a fingering system that keeps you oriented as the harmony shifts. (Not just scales--or even mainly scales---but arpeggios.) Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
visualizing fingering patterns is easy. it doesn't matter if it's CAGED or 3NPS or Leavitt or whatever. playing them is where the work comes in. some fingering patterns are easier than others. some are great. some really suck. most are in the middle.
a quick review of well known guitar pedagogy sources reveals that serious guitarists are regularly advised to learn the following:
1. one octave scales, modes, arpeggios
2. two octave " " in one position or area
3. two octave " " shifting from one fingering pattern to an adjacent one
4. three octave scales, modes, arpeggios (there are multiple approaches)
5. one string scales/modes/arpeggios, or at least tetrachords
6. two string scales/modes/arpeggios
of course that's a lot of work. many/most guitarists don't take all that on. c'est la vie.
-
i don't follow. arpeggios are not a "fingering system". arpeggios are notes of a chord played one at a time, with or without over-ringing. and there are different ways to finger arpeggios. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
can you give an example of what you're referring to?
-
I like Richie's because they are set up to facilitate playing through the cycle. Say you are running a cycle of dominants---the sequence of fingering patterns never changes, whether you do it in one position or up the neck and back down again. It's a neatly conceived system. (Richie doesn't claim to have invented it. I find it very useful but of course, it's not the only one and no one who is flourishing at present should switch to it. But it's been a real boon to me. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
i understand. (i think)
what i mean is, can you give an example of these fingering patterns that you use ("the sequence of fingering patterns never changes"), or shall i say, that Richie advises?
thanks.
-
Sure... if I'm use Cmaj as my reference... the momentary tonal target. The entire neck becomes Cmaj Ionian and all relationships using that tonal target, Cmaj as my reference.
All scales starting on each degree, all arpeggios, diatonic chords etc... and then I also am aware of all the non diatonic relationship... all the possible relationships of the other 5 notes, and how they translate through chords. All my relationships are chord or harmonically organized. Every note implied a chord or harmony. Doesn't mean I need to play etc... but I'm aware of the possibilities.
I use 7 positions based on roots... I've posted them a lot, they're not difficult and they are organized with how my body and mind work. Logically organized, naturally organized. Generally a few basic physical principles that repeat.
Sorry for jumping in Mark... it's just I've watched this process a million times, it's important.
-
12-11-2015, 01:43 PM #15destinytot Guest
Hi Reg! A question about this:
Would you say you see all that as clearly as on a keyboard?Sure... if I'm use Cmaj as my reference... the momentary tonal target. The entire neck becomes Cmaj Ionian and all relationships using that tonal target, Cmaj as my reference.
All scales starting on each degree, all arpeggios, diatonic chords etc... and then I also am aware of all the non diatonic relationship... all the possible relationships of the other 5 notes, and how they translate through chords. All my relationships are chord or harmonically organized. Every note implied a chord or harmony. Doesn't mean I need to play etc... but I'm aware of the possibilities.
As I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes' (which is an almost mind-boggling prospect for me), what do you feel is the most effective route to that level of fretboard awareness?
Thanks in advance.
-
Originally Posted by Reg
No problem, Reg. I'm just (finally) learning this. Before, I could grunt out 12 keys in one position as an exercise but it wasn't something that influenced my improvisation. I'm finally finding my way into what you've known for decades now.
-
A week ago I attended a workshop with Rafal Sarnecki and asked him a question about fingerings. He replied that he practiced patterns and scales in all positions and also tried to finger lines in many different positions, but he avoided awkward fingerings which involved strange stretches. He also said that he and also guitarists he studied with (including Peter Bernstein) have their favourite positions 2 or 3 for specific chords, most comfortable for their hands. He mentioned thats its very importand to practice cadences in positions ( I - VI - II - V, II - V - I...). Also a quotation from Mick Goodrick "there is no direct relationship between how well you know position playing and how well you can improvise." and "if you improvise, knowing position playing very well sure helps".
EDIT: And my observation, I wasted many hours for finding fingerings for bensons, and montgomerys lines in all 12 positions or keeping position the same, and changing keys chromatically. This improved but my knowlede of advantages and disadvantages of certain positions and generally the knowledge of fredboard. But to be honest, more sophisticated lines in certain positions are so hard to play, that I never played them in performance situation. I also like when chromatic notes are played on a single string. Finally, I'm still a student that just started his SERIOUS work with jazz guitar and is still finding his own approach. So I may be wrong.
EDIT: Another observation, in some positions certain SCALES can be hard to finger but on the other hands certain runs my fall very happily so in my opinion, it's not about positions for scales, but positions for certain lines, intervals, runs, arpeggios (scale, part of scale is also a line, musical statement). Some positions are better for scale runs, patterns, some for arpeggios... Also sometimes its pointless to play some lines in positions. It's better to change position while playing a line, because it feels better. And in my opinion if something feels better it sounds better.
EDIT: We also have to consider that everyone is different. Everyone has different ears, different hands, and sees things differently. Kurt Rosenwinkel uses 7 position system as Mr. Reg does. Joe Pass said he used 5 position system. Ralaf Sarnecki said he most of the times uses 2 - 3 positions. Different approaches, different results. But they all sound amazing. And as we all know, position playing is only a part...Last edited by katamaranos; 12-11-2015 at 03:11 PM.
-
sure, we know the fingering patterns that you prefer. Originally Posted by Reg
Mark seemed to be speaking as if playing melodic lines in one area while changing harmonies and tonalities was somehow novel.Last edited by fumblefingers; 12-11-2015 at 10:05 PM.
-
right, but can you provide an example please? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
No I was not. I said that I liked the fingerings that I've learned from Richie Zellon and that they have made it easy for me to play through all 12 keys in one position easily. Richie's fingerings are designed to facilitate playing over chord changes that tend to follow the cycle. It's very different from learning, say, how to play C major in five (or seven) positions up and down the neck. (I know because those are the ways I was taught!) This isn't new. Richie didn't invent it. But he's the guy I'm learning it from. And I'm grateful. I realize that many here learned this earlier and elsewhere. I'm happy for them, each and every one. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
fair enough.
Leavitt covers that in book 3 with several "root movement" approaches, so to speak. (circle of fifths, up chromatically, down chromatically). he published that volume in 1971, it is widely influential, and i learned it in 1980 so figured everybody was familiar with the idea by now. of course he shows his fingering system (12) but one can use their preferred reduced system instead - CAGED for example. in that case you stay in one "area" as opposed to one position.Last edited by fumblefingers; 12-11-2015 at 11:25 PM.
-
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Disagree. The horizontal and vertical elements of fingering should be integrated into one seamless whole. Richie says this, too .
No matter if you're playing C-major starting on the sixth string, 5th string or 4 string..... The rest of the chords, scales and arpeggios associated with that diatonic key center and what have you should be immediately available. Dm, Em, FM7, F7, G7, etc. The whole 9 yards, enchilada, ball of wax , etc.
The benefit of really practicing a scale up-and-down the neck --- fingering as a horizontal concept --- is the greater ease and ability at harmonizing the top note as needed, whether it be with intervals, triads, seventh chords, etc.
But yes, generally, the horizontal and vertical aspects of fingering should be integrated into one single aspect: not only should the cord, scale, or arpeggio associated with a particular note be immediately available, but the same things {chords, scales, arpeggios} for the entire key center, at minimum, should also be immediately available, regardless where you are .
That's when you know you're getting somewhere, when the instrument doesn't get in the way of one's ability to play music .
-
[QUOTE=NSJ;593563]Disagree. The horizontal and vertical elements of fingering should be integrated into one seamless whole. Richie says this, too . /QUOTE]
To be clear: Richie has seven fingerings for, say, a C Major scale and three of the fingerings begin on the same note (same string at the same fret)---his 7 fingerings use only 3 different starting notes! That's very different than, say, Jimmy Bruno's 'five fingerings' (-where you begin on the 7th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th of a "pitch collection"), or the seven fingerings I learned long ago that start on each degree of the scale in turn.
As Richie puts it: >>>>The system we are about to learn is based on the premise that any heptatonic (seven note) scale can be played in 7 different positions covering the entire range of the guitar’s fretboard, thus encompassing every form of execution possible in any register! NOTE: This is not to be confused with the 7 greek modes or inversions generated by each scale.<<<< (Scale and Arpeggios book, page 6, bold italic added here for emphasis.)
I agree that a seamless whole is the goal. And I think this will get me there. (Other ways have gotten others there.) But it is not the same thing as the modes / inversions of a given scale.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 12-12-2015 at 10:08 AM. Reason: spelling
-
Ok. So, you're talking more about the philosophical differences. And that's cool. I felt like this was getting into a tired old "it's still the same fretboard"/"they're still the same 12 notes" thing. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
...and the philosophical approach is fundamentally different. Leavitt's introduction to the cycle in Book 3 shows that he's coming from a different place, with how he'd prioritize the introduction of the cycle in terms of when and how those exercises are introduced. Richie is just emphasizing it more from the beginning. More of a horn approach IMO.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-12-2015 at 10:52 AM. Reason: need to double check; apparent snafu on my part
-
the philosophical differences... nice way to put it
you can see a tune in terms of a series of sounds - Cmaj then A7 then Dm7 then Db7 etc.
or you can see the same tune in terms of a series of changes (between sounds) - Cmaj-A7; A7-Dm7;Dm7-Db7;Db7-Cmaj7 etc.
that's a philosophical difference because its a difference between two ways of seeing the same thing
but it can be crucially important
----
but still no-one has taken up my original point - and i'm still convinced its very important. you should always be trying to optimize playability - NOT memorability (and you should do the extra leg-work so that you master the fingerings despite their having been constructed with ease of execution rather than ease of recall in mind).
once again this is true whether you are trying to find fingerings for a given sound or for a given change etc. etc.
the really philosophical point i made was that when you commit to fingerings based on their playability you tend not to use visualization so much in the process of getting them learned. you learn more how they feel to play than how they look mapped out on the fretboard.
also an important thing i think.Last edited by Groyniad; 12-12-2015 at 11:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
Has anyone ordered from white/blue/green/red...
Today, 02:55 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos