Guitar scale fingerings - what is the priority?

**targuit** · 12-15-2015, 11:06 AM

Mike - Forgive me for intruding, but I have a sincere suggestion to help you quickly become more comfortable with notation and the guitar fret board. You have likely heard me espouse the value of notation software like Sibelius or Finale. I have personal experience only with Sibelius, and there is a learning curve. But I can always help you in terms of my understanding of the process as used with my now legacy Sibelius G7 software.

If you have a synth even a relatively inexpensive one and you are comfortable playing keyboards, you can input notes in real or step-time via USB. And you can use a 'virtual' fretboard to input notes, as well as the computer keys as alternatives. The virtual fretboard is very useful for creating guitar solo arrangements. And there are so many other benefits as well, but I'll defer the sales pitch. My legacy version is not the $500 version - it cost $60 on sale years ago. There is a new first level version - I don't know the cost but it is certainly not expensive.

Anyway, I just wanted to suggest that if you are comfortable playing keyboards, this software will help you 'connect the dots', so to speak. Hit a key, see the note(s) appear. I often play my guitar simultaneously with my left hand as I enter the notes on the keyboard with my right for synergy as I create arrangements - usually ballads or slowed down tempos, naturally. There is no more immediate connection with notation and sheet music, imo. If your a good pianist, so much the better.

For really connecting the fret board seamlessly, I once again recommend the Segovia edition of Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. One can argue about other schemata, but they sure work to help identify every note on the fret board.

destinytot · 12-15-2015, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Mike - Forgive me for intruding, but I have a sincere suggestion to help you quickly become more comfortable with notation and the guitar fret board. You have likely heard me espouse the value of notation software like Sibelius or Finale. I have personal experience only with Sibelius, and there is a learning curve. But I can always help you in terms of my understanding of the process as used with my now legacy Sibelius G7 software.

If you have a synth even a relatively inexpensive one and you are comfortable playing keyboards, you can input notes in real or step-time via USB. And you can use a 'virtual' fretboard to input notes, as well as the computer keys as alternatives. The virtual fretboard is very useful for creating guitar solo arrangements. And there are so many other benefits as well, but I'll defer the sales pitch. My legacy version is not the $500 version - it cost $60 on sale years ago. There is a new first level version - I don't know the cost but it is certainly not expensive.

Anyway, I just wanted to suggest that if you are comfortable playing keyboards, this software will help you 'connect the dots', so to speak. Hit a key, see the note(s) appear. I often play my guitar simultaneously with my left hand as I enter the notes on the keyboard with my right for synergy as I create arrangements - usually ballads or slowed down tempos, naturally. There is no more immediate connection with notation and sheet music, imo. If your a good pianist, so much the better.

For really , I once again recommend the Segovia edition of Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. One can argue about other schemata, but they sure work to help identify every note on the fret board.

Thanks, Jay. I do use Sibelius, but with a mouse.

(I use it for compositions I want to record - to prepare lead sheets or parts for the big boys to read. I consider that 'work' - because it isn't fun - and I treat it as such, because I expect to everyone to get paid. Different topic. )

But I've wanted to input notes through the (piano) keyboard for ages, but I don't know how to connect my keyboard (a Roland HP-700 from the early '90s) to my PC.

I've asked locally for advice and been told to buy another keyboard - which I don't see the need to do. (If anyone can tell me how to connect it, I'd be grateful for help on this.)

This isn't straightforward,

connecting the fret board seamlessly

because maestro Segovia's outside my frame of reference for jazz. That isn't to say that you aren't entirely right - I'll look into it, thanks!

**targuit** · 12-15-2015, 11:51 AM

A note is a note is a note!

I hope I did not misinterpret where you aspire to focus. Do you find Sibelius helpful in terms of reading notation more fluently, because I understood that to be one of your goals? The issue of the Roland is likely whether you can make a USB connection to your computer. Most of the synths these days it is built in or you can sometimes use an inexpensive USB- MIDI interface. In the case of my Yamaha synth which is likely a decade old or more now, there is a USB connection and you download the proper driver or use a Yamaha CD for the purpose.

Another good thing is to find some lute songs for guitar. I have an extensive collection, as I was inspired by Julian Bream's lute CDs in the Sixties, Seventies and Eighties. They make great guitar notation for reading, as do the Bach lute suites and Partitas, though more difficult often. Of course, you also live in a country renowned for its guitar music. Rodrigo....

I would add that while I am fluent in reading notation, I prefer to use my ears, because it is faster and more intuitive. Even though it is a very useful skill to read guitar and or piano notation, if someone plays the music for me it is much faster. So I agree with that for sure. The synergy of the two modes is great though.

destinytot · 12-15-2015, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

A note is a note is a note!

I hope I did not misinterpret where you aspire to focus. Do you find Sibelius helpful in terms of reading notation more fluently, because I understood that to be one of your goals?

My difficulty with reading is on guitar.

**Stevebol** · 12-15-2015, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thanks, Jay. I do use Sibelius, but with a mouse.

(I use it for compositions I want to record - to prepare lead sheets or parts for the big boys to read. I consider that 'work' - because it isn't fun - and I treat it as such, because I expect to everyone to get paid. Different topic. )

But I've wanted to input notes through the (piano) keyboard for ages, but I don't know how to connect my keyboard (a Roland HP-700 from the early '90s) to my PC.

I've asked locally for advice and been told to buy another keyboard - which I don't see the need to do. (If anyone can tell me how to connect it, I'd be grateful for help on this.)

This isn't straightforward,

because maestro Segovia's outside my frame of reference for jazz. That isn't to say that you aren't entirely right - I'll look into it, thanks!

Why can't you use a USB to midi cable? Early 90's is pretty old and sometimes cables just don't work. A USB midi interface might work. I would think there should be a way to hook it up. Why were you told to sell it?

destinytot · 12-15-2015, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

Why can't you use a USB to midi cable? Early 90's is pretty old and sometimes cables just don't work. A USB midi interface might work. I would think there should be a way to hook it up. Why were you told to sell it?

I was told it was 'obsolete', but it's fine for study and rehearsal at home.

I've just found this manual online - I need to look at connectivity (on page 11)
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/p...700_800_OM.pdf

EDIT This looks right for the job: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roland-UM-ON...?tag=musrep-21

**Stevebol** · 12-15-2015, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I was told it was 'obsolete', but it's fine for study and rehearsal at home.

I've just found this manual online - I need to look at connectivity (on page 11)
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/p...700_800_OM.pdf

EDIT This looks right for the job: Roland UM-ONE mk2 USB MIDI Interface: Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments

Might be worth 1 shot. It's expensive. The pin count is right. Check the dimensions if you can.

**targuit** · 12-16-2015, 04:48 AM

Steve is right. That Roland USB-MIDI interface is likely ideal as long as you have the proper pin outs from your synth. I glanced at your manual and I think some of the relevant info is on page 15. Looks like you could use it, though you must follow the steps properly. I have an old Ensoniq KS32 keyboard that needs a specific special internal battery from the early Nineties that has been boxed and presumably will soon go on EBay or Craig's List for sale. Not sure if it had the proper outs.

Mike, I've just been thinking of what might be an ideal musical vehicle for your guitar notation reading. If you like Bach and a challenge that is doable, obtain copies of Bach's Cello Suites No. 1 and No.3 as arranged for guitar by John Duarte. You can find multiple performances on YT surely. I used to listen for hours when I was young to a recording by John Williams that was superb. If you listen to the recordings as you follow the sheet music or even better if you use something like Transcribe (I don't have it yet) where you can slow down the tempo by 20% or so, your ear will help you make the connection to the sheet music. It's really about pattern recognition. And the Cello Suite No. 1 in D is just the vehicle. I used to love playing the beautiful Minuette II...

As for specific instrument challenges, if the issue is the connection of the dots to the fingerboard, working with those diatonic major and minor scales will do the trick. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to push an agenda or talk down to anyone - I put the work in as a kid and for decades. Do I run scales today? Not that often but when I do I harmonize them. Harmonizing those scales is the key. Guitar music notation is both the same and different from piano notation. For one, it is simpler as there is no bass clef usually. And the notation is more "open".

You have to pardon my enthusiasm, but I have always found that notation software like Sibelius is the best bang for the buck there is in terms of usefulness to a musician. I would like so much to have a good BIAB edition as well but....

destinytot · 12-16-2015, 07:13 AM

Apart from the 'thinking' value of transcribing (which I can do with pencil and manuscript paper), the benefits I've been getting from Sibelius have been presentation, instant transposition and part extraction. I always find it a chore - much slower and more work than by hand.

But after watching the tutorial below, I can see just how fast and easy it would be to enter notes through the MIDI keyboard; much faster than by hand - and very little faffing about with a mouse. THIS IS AMAZING! I would enjoy this, and I'd get huge value from it.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I'm about to splash out on a (super-portable, 6.5kg) AER Compact 60 amp, so I'm going to add a Roland UM-One MkII cable to the order. (Also ordering a looper for study, plus EHX Key 9 and freeze pedals for fun.)

This is right up my street, too:

Bach's Cello Suites No. 1 and No.3 as arranged for guitar by John Duarte

I'd like to know more about 'virtual fretboards' - does it interface with Sibelius, too?

My objective in learning the fretboard is not only to 'play what I hear' but to 'play what I hear', i.e. build on my familiarity with songs I know and like.

I've been making short backing tracks (one chorus) for my cellist and flautist friends, and it's just dawned on me that these are great for - er - playing with myself... by which I mean playing off and connecting chord forms. I'll share a couple.

In practical terms, I want to know the fretboard like I know my flat, i.e. well enough to find my around without having to turn on the light. That's the context in which I'm looking at fingering.

destinytot · 12-16-2015, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've been making short backing tracks (one chorus) for my cellist and flautist friends, and it's just dawned on me that these are great for - er - playing with myself... by which I mean playing off and connecting chord forms. I'll share a couple.

They're a bit quiet because they were made late at night, but they'll do.

The benefits of making your own chordal background to practise fingering lines are similar to those of doing mental arithmetic instead of using a calculator. I wished I'd known sooner... but better late than never.

**targuit** · 12-16-2015, 10:16 AM

Only had the time this morning to listen to Like Someone in Love, but it sounded fine to me, if recorded a bit too soft as you noted. I understand the familial constraints, especially recording at night.

Mike, could you briefly outline the process of getting your recording and video onto YT? Because I record to my standalone digital Korg 1200 recorder, I make a CDR of the song and then transfer the files to my computer (PC or Mac) and from there usually via iTunes to change the file format into something compatible with Windows Moviemaker or the Mac version. In any case I upload my recordings so infrequently that I need to research what is compatible, etc. For some reason I seem to have more problems lately with the conversion in iTunes.

I made a couple of nice recordings over the past couple of weekends, despite successive bouts of bronchitis, pneumonia and asthma, and a second bronchitis. Just yesterday I recorded a version of My Foolish Heart in Chet Baker's key of G. I'd like to get that one and The Christmas Song up as well. Hopefully before Christmas....(sigh)

**Groyniad** · 12-16-2015, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

are you talking 2-fret shifts every two strings? What exactly are you describing?

well matt - there's no system as rigid as that. i tend to use 8 (or more) note scales to stay in time - and i tend to try to keep the chromatic bit (between 5 and 6 or b7 and 1 etc.) on one string. otherwise i haven't come up with any rules except that everything be easy and fluid to play.

**Groyniad** · 12-16-2015, 12:26 PM

and c77 - about donna lee at 240

the point you make is a very important one. in my case playing those heads brightly has 2 functions

i adore charlie parker above all musical things

i'm trying to improve facility

----

but i've never approached guitar in a guitar-y way. i never played rock or pop or folk on the guitar. i grew up playing classical flute and then discovered jazz and started the guitar at the same time

this means that your point about what people want to hear from guitarists is of particular importance to me.

and pb is a great example

destinytot · 12-16-2015, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Only had the time this morning to listen to Like Someone in Love, but it sounded fine to me, if recorded a bit too soft as you noted. I understand the familial constraints, especially recording at night.

Mike, could you briefly outline the process of getting your recording and video onto YT? Because I record to my standalone digital Korg 1200 recorder, I make a CDR of the song and then transfer the files to my computer (PC or Mac) and from there usually via iTunes to change the file format into something compatible with Windows Moviemaker or the Mac version. In any case I upload my recordings so infrequently that I need to research what is compatible, etc. For some reason I seem to have more problems lately with the conversion in iTunes.

I made a couple of nice recordings over the past couple of weekends, despite successive bouts of bronchitis, pneumonia and asthma, and a second bronchitis. Just yesterday I recorded a version of My Foolish Heart in Chet Baker's key of G. I'd like to get that one and The Christmas Song up as well. Hopefully before Christmas....(sigh)

Aim and shoot with an iPad camera (then select and hit the YouTube button to upload as unlisted). I've just had to use a camera with an SD card to film my left hand while practising, which I'll post as soon as it's uploaded.

destinytot · 12-16-2015, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I like the image of "the whole fretboard lighting up like a runway". And when "the hand is angled towards the guitar's body", the articulation seems better with three fingers.

But I'm half-guessing my way around the fretboard, so I'm visualising it at the piano - away from the guitar - and using colour-coding (magnets on a whiteboard):
Attachment 25891

Seeing it BIG helps. EDIT These little magnets are luminous - so hopefully the fretboard really will light up like a runway.

Video of my left hand; feeling my way around with three fingers over previously-recorded chords.

destinytot · 12-24-2015, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Steve is right. That Roland USB-MIDI interface is likely ideal as long as you have the proper pin outs from your synth. I glanced at your manual and I think some of the relevant info is on page 15. Looks like you could use it, though you must follow the steps properly.

...

You have to pardon my enthusiasm, but I have always found that notation software like Sibelius is the best bang for the buck there is in terms of usefulness to a musician. I would like so much to have a good BIAB edition as well but....

I placed my order yesterday. At some point, I'll go for one of these (monophonic) devices:
sonuus - Music Products Designed in the UK

**targuit** · 12-24-2015, 11:47 AM

Mike - You are a fine player. I think when you succeed in hooking your keyboard up to your computer and Sibelius for note entry, you will find your options expanded in a positive way. Do you do any transcriptions with Sibelius? I know you mentioned using it to write up charts and individual parts, which is good. But it is a great rehearsal tool as well. Once you great a library of transcriptions, not only do you hone your skills in arranging and notation, but you create the midi files to rehearse to.

When I do transcriptions, I generally create two G clef staves - a melody and accompaniment. (Of course, sometimes I write for more instruments, but for the most part I'm interested in creating melody and accompaniment staves.) When I rehearse, I can isolate just the melody to work on with guitar or voice, for example. If I want, I can mute the melody line and just play over the accompaniment. You get the idea.

Thanks for the reply. I don't have an iPad nor an i-phone but an android model. Don't know if that makes a difference.

destinytot · 12-24-2015, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

an android model. Don't know if that makes a difference.

Hi Jay. Sending a quick reply before heading into town. I enter notes too slowly for Sibelius to be of much use to me for transcribing - but that's going to change! I've actually transcribed quite a lot by hand.

If you can connect your phone to your computer (USB?), you can upload to YouTube from the folder where video is stored (probably under Camera or DCIM).

**targuit** · 12-24-2015, 12:56 PM

Thanks, Mike! Merry Christmas! In Italy, Buon' Natale! In Spain?

destinytot · 12-24-2015, 02:23 PM

Buon Natale, Jay! Yes - and I love it here:
Guitar scale fingerings - what is the priority?-navidad-valencia-jpg

**christianm77** · 12-26-2015, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

and c77 - about donna lee at 240

the point you make is a very important one. in my case playing those heads brightly has 2 functions

i adore charlie parker above all musical things

i'm trying to improve facility

----

but i've never approached guitar in a guitar-y way. i never played rock or pop or folk on the guitar. i grew up playing classical flute and then discovered jazz and started the guitar at the same time

this means that your point about what people want to hear from guitarists is of particular importance to me.

and pb is a great example

In all honesty I am obviously being provocative here.... But I do wonder why people spend so much time talking about expanding the envelope of their technique and chordal knowledge....

There are only so many hours in the day, and I feel that a great musician who plays the guitar simply is always going to make better music and get more gigs than some who is a great technician and a poor musician.

That's an unrealistic extreme, but for me it's a matter of prioritisation of what to work on. I guess I've made my decision and it reflects where I think my weaknesses lie. Some people have both too obviously:-)

I do find it interesting that a lot of players mentioned on this forum attract audiences of other guitar players. Many of them are doing things that other instruments find easier.

There was also an interesting debate regarding whether it is better to work in your weaknesses or hone your strengths... YMMV

EDIT: also simple is not necessarily the same as guitaristic and vice versa....

**Jonah** · 12-26-2015, 03:24 PM

But Christian... when one's after improving chordal knowledge or technique - there's always a route for it and things to do...

But if one's after making real music... in this case he has to make the route himself...

The first is just much simpler...

But I would not blame people for choosing that...

**christianm77** · 12-27-2015, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

But Christian... when one's after improving chordal knowledge or technique - there's always a route for it and things to do...

But if one's after making real music... in this case he has to make the route himself...

The first is just much simpler...

But I would not blame people for choosing that...

It's all about blame! :-)

I think I'm articulating my point quite poorly. I suppose we are following the lead of piano players in terms of developing our harmonic understanding. A bit of this probably really a good thing- the piano is the centre of western musical culture. But it's only good up to a point because you start to live in the shadow of another instrument too much. The time could be perhaps better spent elsewhere.

There are uniquely guitar ways to approach chords and harmony, and my favourite players do this even though they have bee influenced by other instruments...

**HR Fan** · 12-27-2015, 11:55 PM

Hi
Great comments about the choice of fingerings ..especially at uptempo ... Great example is Howard Roberts' fingerings ..They seem different and tough at first but when you start playing the tune quickly his fingerings make sense because you can get to the notes much easier...

**Irez87** · 12-28-2015, 12:12 AM

Chris '77

I agree, that's why I spend more time ear training, doing time studies, and singing, than I do playing guitar. It's paying off, people want to play with me after jam sessions. That never happened after taking hours to study technique. Or maybe it did then, and now, I am at a different part of the journey.

But I stand by it, you need to address your ear if you ever want to make real progress as a musician. I expect a whole slew of naysayers to that point, but the truth is the truth is the truth.

The other truth is: LEARN TUNES...

Yeah, that part is still giving me trouble...

But, we have to carry on some and keep on keeping on... (Cannonball and Clark Terry knew what it was and what it is)

For technique, learn from classical guitarists. They know technique much more than jazz guitarists will ever know technique. Why fight it, learn from the best. Johnny Smith understood that reality and used Segovia as his role model, right?