Guitar scale fingerings - what is the priority?

[grahambop]

I don't think I've ever studied a specific 'fingering system' for jazz. I did learn most of the classical scales and arpeggios when I started on classical guitar, so I guess that was quite a good foundation. I also practised some diatonic arpeggio/scale studies by Ivor Mairants which were probably a good starting point for jazz.

But when I started learning jazz, I found that if you take a typical phrase or line by Charlie Parker or Jimmy Raney, they contain such complex 'twists and turns' that you just have to work out a fingering that can cover it. Basically those phrases are not just linear 'up' or 'down', they keep changing direction mid-phrase, with added chromatic passing notes. So I found that my scale and arpeggio fingerings were not enough, I had to work out my own solutions. Sometimes this might involve quite an odd fingering which doesn't look very logical at first sight.

When you look at the videos of Jimmy Raney, his left hand is position-shifting all the time, so he can get the phrases he wants to produce. With Wes Montgomery, there is a lot of 'slurring' of left hand notes to get that bluesy kind of feel. So I'm not sure that a fixed system is always going to fit these approaches very well.

I'm not really knocking the 'systems', just saying that some things may fall outside them, it's something to be aware of.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think I've ever studied a specific 'fingering system' for jazz. I did learn most of the classical scales and arpeggios when I started on classical guitar, so I guess that was quite a good foundation. I also practised some diatonic arpeggio/scale studies by Ivor Mairants which were probably a good starting point for jazz.

But when I started learning jazz, I found that if you take a typical phrase or line by Charlie Parker or Jimmy Raney, they contain such complex 'twists and turns' that you just have to work out a fingering that can cover it. Basically those phrases are not just linear 'up' or 'down', they keep changing direction mid-phrase, with added chromatic passing notes. So I found that my scale and arpeggio fingerings were not enough, I had to work out my own solutions. Sometimes this might involve quite an odd fingering which doesn't look very logical at first sight.

When you look at the videos of Jimmy Raney, his left hand is position-shifting all the time, so he can get the phrases he wants to produce. With Wes Montgomery, there is a lot of 'slurring' of left hand notes to get that bluesy kind of feel. So I'm not sure that a fixed system is always going to fit these approaches very well.

I'm not really knocking the 'systems', just saying that some things may fall outside them, it's something to be aware of.

Reg advocates having a default base. It's not a RESTRICTION on playing anything certain way. Again, I would think about it like piano student learning basic fingerings which aren't always going to be played in the future as "rules". I get what you're saying about having to really work to the stuff and come up with things that work in different situations.

Chromatics present different issues for sure. Have to figure things with more of the target in mind. I think it's interesting that even William Levitt has a different protocol for chromatic targeting passages versus just reading simpler accidentals in position.

[christianm77]

I don't think I've ever studied a specific 'fingering system' for jazz. I did learn most of the classical scales and arpeggios when I started on classical guitar, so I guess that was quite a good foundation. I also practised some diatonic arpeggio/scale studies by Ivor Mairants which were probably a good starting point for jazz.

But when I started learning jazz, I found that if you take a typical phrase or line by Charlie Parker or Jimmy Raney, they contain such complex 'twists and turns' that you just have to work out a fingering that can cover it. Basically those phrases are not just linear 'up' or 'down', they keep changing direction mid-phrase, with added chromatic passing notes. So I found that my scale and arpeggio fingerings were not enough, I had to work out my own solutions. Sometimes this might involve quite an odd fingering which doesn't look very logical at first sight.

When you look at the videos of Jimmy Raney, his left hand is position-shifting all the time, so he can get the phrases he wants to produce. With Wes Montgomery, there is a lot of 'slurring' of left hand notes to get that bluesy kind of feel. So I'm not sure that a fixed system is always going to fit these approaches very well.

I'm not really knocking the 'systems', just saying that some things may fall outside them, it's something to be aware of.

Almost all my favourite guys are three finger shifty guys (apart from Django who's a two fingered shifty guy.)

A lot of these guys seem to feel they play with 'bad technique' when manifestly, it worked for them.

Miles Okazaki has this to say about Charlie Christian's technique. I agree with him.

'There is no known video footage of Charlie Christian, but the consensus among players is that he used a majority of downstrokes with the right hand, and mostly three fingers with the left hand. A well-known quote, again from Kessel, describes some important details:

He rested his 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers on the pick-guard. He anchored them there so tensely that it was like there almost wasn't a break in the joint. He almost never used the 4th finger of his left hand."
(Kessel in Guitar Player, Oct '70)

This description of the left hand makes sense, given the logical fingerings that can be used to play the solos, and is supported by the few pictures that we have of Christian in the act of playing. In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options -- look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar's body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian. I once had the pleasure of sitting with George Benson in his house and listening to this very solo on the record player, while he pointed out his favorite lines. '

Here's the link Stompin' at Minton's(by Miles Okazaki) - Do The Math

[MarkRhodes]

Mark you should get a teacher if you can. I wouldn't confuse good playing with good teaching. Some can do both, some can't.

I agree that some play well but don't teach well, while others teach well but don't play particularly well. Richie teaches well AND plays well. He's also available via Skype for private lessons. Indeed, one "package" for his improv material includes 6 half-hour lessons.

[MarkRhodes]

Almost all my favourite guys are three finger shifty guys (apart from Django who's a two fingered shifty guy.)

A lot of these guys seem to feel they play with 'bad technique' when manifestly, it worked for them.

Miles Okazaki has this to say about Charlie Christian's technique. I agree with him.

I too like a lot of three-finger players. Charlie is a favorite and so is Herb Ellis (-though Herb used his pinky a fair bit.)
For my own case, I learned to use my pinky early on and can't see stopping that now. I'm a four-finger player, for good or ill. But I never carp about three-finger players (-Wes was another "mainly-three-finger" player) having 'bad technique.'

If you can get the music you hear in your head out on your instrument, you have good technique.

[MarkRhodes]

Sent to moderators:

"I don't give a shit about your wife". Wrong key.

A lot of forum members put their best thinking on the line, making themselves vulnerable to disagreement, challenge and criticism in order to promote learning.

It was the wrong key but Matt---the person to whom it was said---took it in stride. Fumbles is like a dog whose bark is the bulk of what he contributes to conversation. Don't make too much of it.

[christianm77]

I too like a lot of three-finger players. Charlie is a favorite and so is Herb Ellis (-though Herb used his pinky a fair bit.)
For my own case, I learned to use my pinky early on and can't see stopping that now. I'm a four-finger player, for good or ill. But I never carp about three-finger players (-Wes was another "mainly-three-finger" player) having 'bad technique.'

If you can get the music you hear in your head out on your instrument, you have good technique.

I have the same educational disadvantage - started with classical.

[Reg]

OK... so all fingerings are just tools.... you use them, right. Hopefully you get past them using you.

Playability... in respect to not having the guitar play you and not damaging your fingers, hand etc...

My choices for fingerings are based also on how my hand and fingers work. Over the long run... I didn't want problems, physical problems from playing lots of notes, sometimes very fast etc...

And as always for me personally... fingerings are used, and generally with out thinking about...for performance effects, articulations and style of music as well as...I generally don't look at my neck... I'm usually sight reading or watching rest of band.... or sometimes the audience when I'm doing the entertaining BS.

I also love to create rhythmic grooves melodically.... different fingerings help, they can naturally create feels or different
bounces etc...
Yes Destiny when I look or think about the neck it's all one big grid or changeable pattern

[grahambop]

I have the same educational disadvantage - started with classical.

I don't mind having the 4th finger ingrained from my classical days - it's very handy for complex Bird/Raney type stuff.

But when I started learning jazz, I also practised some Wes phrases a lot, so I learned to do the 'three-fingers and a lot of slurs' thing too. I don't really find it problematic to use either method.

I haven't really thought about it before, but perhaps I sort of switch between the 2 approaches in a solo, to get some contrast. So I might play some boppy/chromatic stuff, then when it's getting a bit too 'note-y', I might chuck in some bluesy Wes-type phrases to break it up. Probably something I should consciously practise!

[targuit]

All this effort expended on 'fingering' is interesting but a little puzzling as well. After all, the notes on the fret board are the same for everyone. Whether you choose to use the oft debated 7 versus 5 position approaches and four or three fingers on the left hand... My opinion is that there are numerous options to running scales on the finger board, starting with the Segovia fingerings and ending with Jimmy Bruno's or the kid down the street. The method I think is far less important than the result. And one must also acknowledge that the same two or more bar phrases can be played with different fingerings at different positions on the neck depending more on the range of the pitches of the notes more than anything else.

Ultimately, you settle on what works for you. In Django's case, he did not have options after his injury to his hands in a fire. And to some extent I think one's anatomy helps determine your style. Big hands, small hands, number of fingers, double jointed thumb, etc.

I still believe that the Segovia system of fingering the scale transitions in all twelve keys is a fine starting point. But whether it is Segovia or Jimmy Bruno's style, it is ultimately the end result that counts. As for the three versus four finger approaches with the fretting hand, I think that the three finger approach tends to result in a more angular phrasing, which is good for certain styles of jazz. Sometimes I purposely limit my approach to three fingers just to vary my styling of a song. In Wes' case I think it caused him to work harder to play certain phrases that way but was also responsible in part for his 'signature sound' which put him in the history books. Like Django.

[mr. beaumont]

To Jay's point, yeah, less in "how do you organize?" and more "get organized, dammit!"

Unfortunately for me, what I was taught and what I actually practiced were two different things...lazy teenager. So now I have what I have.

[destinytot]

I like the image of "the whole fretboard lighting up like a runway". And when "the hand is angled towards the guitar's body", the articulation seems better with three fingers.

But I'm half-guessing my way around the fretboard, so I'm visualising it at the piano - away from the guitar - and using colour-coding (magnets on a whiteboard):


Seeing it BIG helps. EDIT These little magnets are luminous - so hopefully the fretboard really will light up like a runway.

[MarkRhodes]

To Jay's point, yeah, less in "how do you organize?" and more "get organized, dammit!"

.

Travis Bickle: One of these days I gotta get myself organizized.
Betsy: Organizized? Don't you mean organized?
Travis: No, organizized.
Betsy: Oh, like that sign that says “Thimk.”

• Taxi Driver

[mr. beaumont]

Re: the fretboard lighting up...

As a guy with poor technique who's been playing forever, I can tell you that the fretboard lighting up and still having a shitty fingering system are both possible

[destinytot]

... responsible in part for his 'signature sound'.

For me, the 'power of three' is where it's at: "Accept no substitutes".

[MarkRhodes]

Re: the fretboard lighting up...

As a guy with poor technique who's been playing forever, I can tell you that the fretboard lighting up and still having a shitty fingering system are both possible

Ouch! I think you're too hard on yourself.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, not really, but thanks.

I get by, and most of what you hear me post here is me doing what I know I can do...but there's plenty I can't as well...and mostly due to lazy/weird choices I made 25 years ago...

For example, I'm a chronic pinky ignorer...I also have a very large span capable between my index and middle finger...these things didn't didn't matter for the longest time, and I worked on things and occaionally hit roadblocks, but usually could make my fingerings for things "work."

But now that I'm learning some things and seeing them, I'm starting to realize there's an economy I'm missing out on. It makes some things more difficult...and I know it's coming, I'll see it soon enough, if I haven't already, it makes somes things not possible. So I work keep on it...

[destinytot]

OK... so all fingerings are just tools.... you use them, right. Hopefully you get past them using you.
.....
Yes Destiny when I look or think about the neck it's all one big grid or changeable pattern

Thanks, Reg!

[destinytot]

Re: the fretboard lighting up...

As a guy with poor technique who's been playing forever, I can tell you that the fretboard lighting up and still having a shitty fingering system are both possible

Tell me about it - but I'm looking for 'effective', not 'efficient'!

[mr. beaumont]

When I try to play the head to Donna Lee above 200bpm or so, efficient and effective become synonyms.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Good thread...

[destinytot]

When I try to play the head to Donna Lee above 200bpm or so, efficient and effective become synonyms.

I tried that, but - to my ears - it's only effective* with three fingers.

*not sure how to define that, but it's aesthetic.

[Stevebol]

I agree that some play well but don't teach well, while others teach well but don't play particularly well. Richie teaches well AND plays well. He's also available via Skype for private lessons. Indeed, one "package" for his improv material includes 6 half-hour lessons.

His Autumn Leaves is impressive. No doubt he's organized. I think he's coming more from classical even though it say's bebop. He's kind of pricey. I can teach electric bass informally. I'm no guitar teacher but there are people around here that could teach you.
I think you need someone to monitor your progress for a while. You seem to be caught up in 'method' shopping.
Just my 2 cents.
It would take me two years to be a jazz guitarist and I'd need a teacher. Maybe not for two years but I'd have to have a teacher at this point.

[MarkRhodes]

But I'm half-guessing my way around the fretboard, so I'm visualising it at the piano - away from the guitar - and using colour-coding (magnets on a whiteboard):


Seeing it BIG helps. EDIT These little magnets are luminous - so hopefully the fretboard really will light up like a runway.

That's nifty! I hadn't thought of that before.

[MarkRhodes]

His Autumn Leaves is impressive. No doubt he's organized. I think he's coming more from classical even though it say's bebop. He's kind of pricey. I can teach electric bass informally. I'm no guitar teacher but there are people around here that could teach you.
I think you need someone to monitor your progress for a while. You seem to be caught up in 'method' shopping.
Just my 2 cents.
It would take me two years to be a jazz guitarist and I'd need a teacher. Maybe not for two years but I'd have to have a teacher at this point.

Richie can play. He's from Peru and much of his original material (that I have heard) is characterized as "Afro-Peruvian"---you should check up some of his stuff in that vein.