Bebop Guitar Picking Speed

**blackcat** · 11-22-2015, 07:59 AM

After some years trying to achieve regular bebop picking speeds ( ala Jimmy Bruno et al ) I have come to the conclusion that it is not going to happen. Has anyone else arrived at this conclusion?

David Gilmour? He once said that his entire playing style evolved due to not being able to play fast.

**yaclaus** · 11-22-2015, 08:16 AM

If your musical perception is fast, speed is a very little factor IMO.

**fumblefingers** · 11-22-2015, 12:48 PM

no. but i think playing melodically is a great thing. DG has always done that.

for single note soloing can you keep up with Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall?

if the answer is yes, you're doin' fine.

**Sam Sherry** · 11-22-2015, 02:13 PM

"I have won several prizes as the world's slowest alto player, as well as a special award in 1961 for quietness." -- Paul Desmond

**mispeltyoof** · 11-22-2015, 02:21 PM

Look at BB King every note a masterpiece but not many of them

**christianm77** · 11-22-2015, 03:34 PM

Bill Frisell said something similar..

**blackcat** · 11-22-2015, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by yaclaus

If your musical perception is fast, speed is a very little factor IMO.

Wise words perhaps, but where does that leave DG precisely?

or

perhaps.

**blackcat** · 11-22-2015, 03:50 PM

Fumblefingers

for single note soloing can you keep up with Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall?

if the answer is yes, you're doin' fine.

I would like to say yes. Others may disagree of course. You make a good point. Feeling better already.

**pingu** · 11-22-2015, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

no. but i think playing melodically is a great thing. DG has always done that.

for single note soloing can you keep up with Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall?

if the answer is yes, you're doin' fine.

if you can keep up with Wes ??

your doing amazing !

**pingu** · 11-22-2015, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

no. but i think playing melodically is a great thing. DG has always done that.

for single note soloing can you keep up with Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall?

if the answer is yes, you're doin' fine.

jim hall had a sticker i think on his guitar case that said
"can't play fast ... won't play loud"

good one

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-22-2015, 11:32 PM

For me there is one thing that maybe is not taking into the account: you don't have to play fast, but you better be able to hang at fast tempos. You know what I mean? Like Jim Hall, I ve heard him playing very fast bop tunes, and even though he didnt play a lot of notes, everything he did play was perfectly swung and, very important thing, he didn t look like he was struggling at all! So it doesnt really matter if you play fast or not, but if you struggle at all in any tempo, it means you gotta keep working on technique. There is no way around it. At least thats how I look at it.

**vintagelove** · 11-23-2015, 01:18 AM

I would bet anything that everyone who feels like this suffers from not understanding picking mechanics, rather than some physical deficiency.

If someone is truly interested, look up my posts in a thread called "one way to pick". I gave two excercises that I guarantee will break you through your plateau. The biggest problem lies in overcoming outside picking. If you don't understand what that means, re-read the first sentence of this post.

**blackcat** · 11-23-2015, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

if you can keep up with Wes ??

your doing amazing !

Actually answered that in the spirit of your suggestion pingu - not quite Wes in fact!

**Marty Grass** · 11-23-2015, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

for single note soloing can you keep up with Dexter Gordon, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall?

if the answer is yes, you're doin' fine.

Well, that's bad news. I can't hang with that crowd. I can just keep up with Neil Young!

Gilmour is fast enough to say what he needs to say. He offers a lot more than just melody, too. His tonal spectrum is full. His cadence is hypnotizing and elegant. And his dynamics are heart stopping. You never know if he'll traipse into his solo or kick the door in. He modulates speed, pitch and intensity masterfully. And his exits are as unpredictable as his entries.

And I didn't mention that he writes beautifully and poetically, he sings just right, and he's versatile on several types of guitar.

There are musicians who are fantastic but don't steal the show with flamboyance. DG is one of them. Ringo Starr is another. As I think more on this, there are tons of them- very professional and reliable. Kenny Burrell, the Wrecking Crew, the Motown gang and more.

Great thread.

**blackcat** · 11-23-2015, 11:09 AM

....................but Ringo?!

**ChrisDowning** · 11-23-2015, 11:20 AM

I had a student once who told me he could play 32 notes a second and he was in training to hit 64 notes a second. When three years later I met the head of the music school he went on to after learning to read with me - he was knocked back by the school for not knowing any standard notation - the head of his music school knew who I was asking about when I told him the story of a student obsessed by trying to play fast!

Be careful what you wish for, it may become the only thing you are known for!

**lawson-stone** · 11-23-2015, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

For me there is one thing that maybe is not taking into the account: you don't have to play fast, but you better be able to hang at fast tempos. You know what I mean? Like Jim Hall, I ve heard him playing very fast bop tunes, and even though he didnt play a lot of notes, everything he did play was perfectly swung and, very important thing, he didn t look like he was struggling at all! So it doesnt really matter if you play fast or not, but if you struggle at all in any tempo, it means you gotta keep working on technique. There is no way around it. At least thats how I look at it.

Good word. When the tempos go up, I always think I have to play faster, but the idea of hanging with the faster tempos while not necessarily going into 64th notes is something to think about.

You've stated something here that is a light-bulb moment for me.

THANKS!

**ChrisDowning** · 11-23-2015, 11:53 AM

Yep, me too. I think when the band is charging along at 280 bpm My mind is working at one note per bar!! Time to swap over to the bass guitar!

**Marty Grass** · 11-23-2015, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by blackcat

....................but Ringo?!

Yep. Ringo was solid and quietly innovative.

**blackcat** · 11-23-2015, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Good word. When the tempos go up, I always think I have to play faster, but the idea of hanging with the faster tempos while not necessarily going into 64th notes is something to think about.

You've stated something here that is a light-bulb moment for me.

THANKS!

Ditto from me. Seminal stuff methinks.

**christianm77** · 11-23-2015, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

For me there is one thing that maybe is not taking into the account: you don't have to play fast, but you better be able to hang at fast tempos. You know what I mean? Like Jim Hall, I ve heard him playing very fast bop tunes, and even though he didnt play a lot of notes, everything he did play was perfectly swung and, very important thing, he didn t look like he was struggling at all! So it doesnt really matter if you play fast or not, but if you struggle at all in any tempo, it means you gotta keep working on technique. There is no way around it. At least thats how I look at it.

Jim's a great one to study. Like Louis he had a genius for swinging 1/4 notes. That's not something that often gets touched on (although bass players have to be able to do that.)

Peter Bernstein (of course!) has the same spirit as Jim. I love listening to him take up tunes...

It's easy to hide behind strings of notes if you have chops. But fast playing is almost never real improvisation. My favourite players are often the guys who play very little. Whenever I listen back to my own playing I rarely find myself saying 'hmmm - if only I'd played a bit more there...' :-)

**Stevebol** · 11-23-2015, 09:49 PM

Lol. Yep, I'm about 60 BPM short of being a 'jazz' guitarist.
It's a tragedy..

**Hep To The Jive** · 11-23-2015, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Jim's a great one to study. Like Louis he had a genius for swinging 1/4 notes. That's not something that often gets touched on (although bass players have to be able to do that.)

Peter Bernstein (of course!) has the same spirit as Jim. I love listening to him take up tunes...

It's easy to hide behind strings of notes if you have chops. But fast playing is almost never real improvisation. My favourite players are often the guys who play very little. Whenever I listen back to my own playing I rarely find myself saying 'hmmm - if only I'd played a bit more there...' :-)

Same here! When I listen back to my improvs I notice I play too many sometimes. I often think if I made this or that phrase shorter, it would be a perfect one, why did I play those extra notes?? Lol.

Anyway, lately, since I've been noodling a lot every day, gig or no gig, my technique got a little better. So now Im mostly interested in tone, both from my fingers and from my setup. i realized that I love players who rather attack guitar than playing in classical sense. Not many of those in jazz, though... Constant stream of notes doesnt excite me, but rather bursts of energy through attack and dynamics. So the right hand rules, if it make sense.

**Jazzism** · 11-24-2015, 03:17 AM

I thought it would be more appropriate for this forum to say the Dave Gilmore syndrome rather than david gilmour. In which case I would say I would be glad to trade any amount of picking speed for his ability to groove in odd meters. Haha!

**blackcat** · 11-24-2015, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzism

I thought it would be more appropriate for this forum to say the Dave Gilmore syndrome rather than david gilmour. In which case I would say I would be glad to trade any amount of picking speed for his ability to groove in odd meters. Haha!

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