Troy Grady - Two way pick slanting (Cracking the Code)

[JakeAcci]

Hey everybody

Long time no post...

In the past few days I finally got a chance to sit down and work with a bunch of Troy Grady's "cracking the code" videos and wowee wow that stuff is pretty damn great (and entertaining.)

Getting used to his assessment of alternate picking problems I feel confident that I know exactly what has been wrong with my alternate picking all along, yet I'm not totally sure how to remedy it, and I thought maybe others who have been getting into the nitty gritty about this stuff might be able to share some insight.

I see there have been a few threads about his material but I don't think my specific issues have been addressed.

Here's where I'm at:

I am satisfied with my facility with all the downward pick slanting stuff. I learned that I've always been a "downward pick slanter" and for years have been favoring even note per string figures that change strings after an upstroke..these are figures I can get about 60% faster than odd numbered groupings.

I have dabbled with upward pick slanting a little bit but after watching his videos and understanding the whys and hows I think I'm starting to get it even just after a couple days of focus.

Upward pick slanting - even notes per string - changing strings after a down stroke - that's getting pretty easy and fast while descending, but I find ascending harder. It's doable and still way better than odd numbered groupings, but awkward.

I feel like I'm still a ways away from transitioning back and forth between upward pick slanting and downward pick slanting in the middle of a line, but I've composed some lines that have very easy and clear pivot points between the two types of slanting, and have been making some progress with those.

I think the problem is that 'my' upward pick slanting involves a pretty extreme wrist angle mirroring the also extreme downward pick slanting I do. So switching between them rapidly seems daunting, as the change is a pretty large motion. I can see that maybe as I do it more I won't have to make the angles so extreme and things might even out. I'm pretty far from the steve morse examples....

I'm trying to get more insight into:

1. HOW to do upward pick slanting, how to have more control over it, especially for ascending lines. I think there are particulars about how I hold the pick, or what my go-to motion is, that make this tricky.

2. HOW to change pick slants in the middle of a figure, and HOW to practice this stuff. It's how to go from where I'm at - total comfort with DWPS and some comfort with UWPS and some extremely basic and slow switching between the two slants - to rapid changes between slant angles for odd numbered groupings.

Thoughts? Would just buying the course reveal this info? Has he addressed these issues in videos I haven't seen? Any ideas for other resources?

Thanks!

[JakeAcci]

Adding: does Benson picking provide a solution to rapid switching between downward and upward slanting, or is it part of the language of benson picking to arrange vocabulary on the guitar that avoids these problems?

[dasein]

Adding: does Benson picking provide a solution to rapid switching between downward and upward slanting, or is it part of the language of benson picking to arrange vocabulary on the guitar that avoids these problems?

Benson is entirely downward, just like Django. his hand positioning is different from Django, but the basic mechanics are pretty similar

Benson uses a lot of slurs and position shifting, building off of Django and Wes.

only a few guys use strict alternate picking where they pick virtually every note -- Pat Martino and Al DiMeola immediately come to mind. DiMeola uses a lot of scalar playing, and Martino has a lot of favorite licks.

Troy Grady recently had an interview with Jimmy Bruno, which was both enlightening and amusing. Troy clearly hadn't had a lot of experience talking with jazz guys, and he assumed that Bruno would be familiar with a lot of the terminology and patterns associated with shred guitar. Bruno said that he liked his approach (two-way pick slanting where everything is "swept") because he didn't know what he was going to play before he played it, so that approach kept it simple.

for jazz, i think you either have to use that approach (i know Miles Okazaki uses the same technique) or something like Benson where you use a lot of slurs to make everything work.

or both... IMO, slurs are pretty essential to sounding "correct" when playing jazz.

[destinytot]

I posted this reply in another thread (in case it's of interest):
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post580166

[AlsoRan]

Welcome back, Jake!

I hope you are all "healed up" now, as we say in the south. As you can see, there are still some ol' diehards and a large crop of newer "residents" as well to engage in discussion.

I saw a few of his videos and listened rather intently. I though a couple of the guitarist, like Yngwie and Eric Johnson only used downward slanting and hardly ever used upward. I also thought he said they planned their lines so that the lines facilitated their downward picking slant.

I am going to have to go back and listen again.

[JakeAcci]

Benson is entirely downward, just like Django. his hand positioning is different from Django, but the basic mechanics are pretty similar

Benson uses a lot of slurs and position shifting, building off of Django and Wes.

So in the Benson picking model, how does one play a descending arpeggio that has one note per string? Let's say it has four notes total. It would have to be swept right, slanting the pick up, not down?

I know the soundbite answer is that Benson picking involves alternate picking for descending lines. But if we have a line, say it's one note per string, four notes, descending, and is 8ths at >300 I have a few reactions, regarding GB/downslanting picking:

1. It could be alternated, but that seems extremely difficult to do while maintaining a downward pick angle. I'd imagine the pick angle would even out. Also, I just can't really imagine Benson playing it this way - alternate picking one note per string.

2. It is swept, going to an upward picking angle

3. Benson/those who do strict GB picking would refinger the line so that it no longer has one note picked per string, so some combo of alternate or slurs are still possible with downward slanting

4. This just wouldn't be part of the vocabulary in this style of picking. This kind of line would be avoided in favor of something that lays easier on both hands.

Forgive me if this is addressed in the very long Benson Picking thread, but it looks like that thread is up to 88 pages (!) and I'd imagine a lot of it is about the grip rather than my slanting and stroke questions.

So for those familiar with GB picking, which one, of the four above, is it? Or some combination? None of the above?

Welcome back, Jake!

I hope you are all "healed up" now, as we say in the south. As you can see, there are still some ol' diehards and a large crop of newer "residents" as well to engage in discussion.

I saw a few of his videos and listened rather intently. I though a couple of the guitarist, like Yngwie and Eric Johnson only used downward slanting and hardly ever used upward. I also thought he said they planned their lines so that the lines facilitated their downward picking slant.

I am going to have to go back and listen again.

Thanks AlsoRan!

Hands have actually been more or less ok for a while, just been real busy teaching and honestly not doing much jazz guitar playing - or practicing in general really. But I got all fired up but Troy Grady's great videos.

You and I took the same thing from the Yngwie and Johnson videos - they arrange a vocabulary that is entirely downward slanting. But other players slant both ways, like Paul Gilbert, Michael Angelo Batio, and, more slightly more relevant to our jazz lines, Steve Morse.

I have also arranged a lot of stuff for one way slanting but I find it pretty limiting relative to what I actually want to play and what fingerings I want to use.

I'm wondering if Troy addresses how to go from one way slanting to two ways slanting, does anybody know if he gets into that in any of his videos/products? Should I email him? I've read that he's pretty responsive. I'm happy to shell out $$$ for this stuff, I feel like I'm on the verge of a real breakthrough with my right hand technique.

It seems that one-way slanting makes picking a pretty simple up/down motion and when the pick is in the air above the strings it can be repositioned to hit any other string. But in two way slanting it seems like there needs to be a rotation present to allow rapid switches between slants. I'm gathering that Gilbert and Batio change the pick slant with their fingers, and my angles, so to speak, feel fairly locked when doing fast picking, as in I can kind of only go up/down, it's not a multi-directional movement. (see the video on steve morse and his 'curved' picking)

Has anybody else digged really heavily into this stuff? I'm finding it intensely fascinating. I was already familiar with rearranging stuff for one way slanting but the Yngwie video opens up a lot of doors for what is possible with the technique. This morning I was refingering Coltrane's giant steps solo and getting it up to tempo without much effort...this is something that was nowhere near possible with my usual go to picking techniques, even including some slurs.

[dasein]

So in the Benson picking model, how does one play a descending arpeggio that has one note per string? Let's say it has four notes total. It would have to be swept right, slanting the pick up, not down?


So for those familiar with GB picking, which one, of the four above, is it? Or some combination? None of the above?

sweeping, but you can clearly tell when he's doing it vs. his normal picking

I'm wondering if Troy addresses how to go from one way slanting to two ways slanting, does anybody know if he gets into that in any of his videos/products? Should I email him? I've read that he's pretty responsive. I'm happy to shell out $$$ for this stuff, I feel like I'm on the verge of a real breakthrough with my right hand technique.

It seems that one-way slanting makes picking a pretty simple up/down motion and when the pick is in the air above the strings it can be repositioned to hit any other string. But in two way slanting it seems like there needs to be a rotation present to allow rapid switches between slants. I'm gathering that Gilbert and Batio change the pick slant with their fingers, and my angles, so to speak, feel fairly locked when doing fast picking, as in I can kind of only go up/down, it's not a multi-directional movement. (see the video on steve morse and his 'curved' picking)

Has anybody else digged really heavily into this stuff? I'm finding it intensely fascinating. I was already familiar with rearranging stuff for one way slanting but the Yngwie video opens up a lot of doors for what is possible with the technique. This morning I was refingering Coltrane's giant steps solo and getting it up to tempo without much effort...this is something that was nowhere near possible with my usual go to picking techniques, even including some slurs.

the angles don't really have to change with the fingers, it can be from the forearm/wrist/wherever

for two-way pick slanting, you have two choices:

if you want everything alternate picked -- basically, you would have a "primary" slant, and you would change the slant for one or two notes where it's necessary. you could also use what Troy calls "swiping" to minimize the two-way pickslanting on certain licks

if you don't care about alternate picking everything -- use two way pick slanting to "sweep" everything

[JazzMuzak]

I think saying that benson only does downward pick slanting is incorrect....from transcribing more of his licks recently I've found the best way for me to descend (go from high to low) is to actually upward pick slant, especially if the pick ends in the opposite direction of the string switch.

I.E. If I'm on the high e strong and switching to the b string, but I just ended on a down stroke I'll upward pick slant in order to get to an upstroke on the b string quick enough. Almost all of the really fast descending chromatic benson licks I've transcribed adhere to this principle. When descending strings end on a down stroke and use an upward pick slant to get to the next lower string.

If if you see him picking sometimes you'll notice his finger appears to be more flexed against the thumb than at other times. That's how you get the upward pick slant. It angles the pick in a way where it has less distance to travel between strings.

[JakeAcci]

the angles don't really have to change with the fingers, it can be from the forearm/wrist/wherever

for two-way pick slanting, you have two choices:

if you want everything alternate picked -- basically, you would have a "primary" slant, and you would change the slant for one or two notes where it's necessary. you could also use what Troy calls "swiping" to minimize the two-way pickslanting on certain licks

if you don't care about alternate picking everything -- use two way pick slanting to "sweep" everything

Ah swiping, yes, another option.

If we are alternate picking everything, I think the slant direction will have to change pretty regularly especially if the line has a lot of intervals wider than a M3.

I think I'm going to email him/them regarding more of the nuts and bolts of doing two way slanting.

For whatever it's worth, my interest here isn't really in "how can I make nice sounding lines" but rather getting into the nuts and bolts of the different techniques. I just find it fascinating and often this kind of exploration leads to musical or practical results down the road.

Also, the damn two way slanting - alternate picking across strings in odd groupings - has eluded me for so long, I could never get it as quick as I wanted, or as quick as some other people can do it, so I feel like this might be the beginning of a break through. Also, I like the tone and time better than economy/sweep.

[JakeAcci]

I think saying that benson only does downward pick slanting is incorrect....from transcribing more of his licks recently I've found the best way for me to descend (go from high to low) is to actually upward pick slant, especially if the pick ends in the opposite direction of the string switch.

I.E. If I'm on the high e strong and switching to the b string, but I just ended on a down stroke I'll upward pick slant in order to get to an upstroke on the b string quick enough. Almost all of the really fast descending chromatic benson licks I've transcribed adhere to this principle. When descending strings end on a down stroke and use an upward pick slant to get to the next lower string.

If if you see him picking sometimes you'll notice his finger appears to be more flexed against the thumb than at other times. That's how you get the upward pick slant. It angles the pick in a way where it has less distance to travel between strings.

Cool, thanks. Honestly I don't listen to much Benson, so this is helpful.

[dasein]

Ah swiping, yes, another option.

If we are alternate picking everything, I think the slant direction will have to change pretty regularly especially if the line has a lot of intervals wider than a M3.

I think I'm going to email him/them regarding more of the nuts and bolts of doing two way slanting.

For whatever it's worth, my interest here isn't really in "how can I make nice sounding lines" but rather getting into the nuts and bolts of the different techniques. I just find it fascinating and often this kind of exploration leads to musical or practical results down the road.

Also, the damn two way slanting - alternate picking across strings in odd groupings - has alluded me for so long, I could never get it as quick as I wanted, or as quick as some other people can do it, so I feel like this might be the beginning of a break through. Also, I like the tone and time better than economy/sweep.

you're, of course, welcome to do what you want, and i wouldn't try to stop you one way or the other.

but for me personally, alternate picking every note on guitar is just way more trouble than it's worth. it's doable on very scalar lines, but the unpredictable string switching and syncopation that's part of jazz is way too much to manage.

kudos to you, though

I think saying that benson only does downward pick slanting is incorrect....from transcribing more of his licks recently I've found the best way for me to descend (go from high to low) is to actually upward pick slant, especially if the pick ends in the opposite direction of the string switch.

I.E. If I'm on the high e strong and switching to the b string, but I just ended on a down stroke I'll upward pick slant in order to get to an upstroke on the b string quick enough. Almost all of the really fast descending chromatic benson licks I've transcribed adhere to this principle. When descending strings end on a down stroke and use an upward pick slant to get to the next lower string.

If if you see him picking sometimes you'll notice his finger appears to be more flexed against the thumb than at other times. That's how you get the upward pick slant. It angles the pick in a way where it has less distance to travel between strings.

post some examples of some lines/recordings that you're referring to. i'd be very interested to take a look at them.

the people i know who studied/played with Benson insist that he starts all his string changes with downstokes, except for a few scattered sweeps here and there. but i have no stake in it either way, and i'm always open to new information

[JakeAcci]

Oh, also, wanted to add, even in "economy" picking there still is going to be a fair amount of two-way slanting needed, switching between slants. Ideally, slurs are added where it makes musical sense more so than to make the line playable.

[dasein]

Oh, also, wanted to add, even in "economy" picking there still is going to be a fair amount of two-way slanting needed, switching between slants. Ideally, slurs are added where it makes musical sense more so than to make the line playable.

oh definitely, but for me it's much more intuitive

when i was first learning guitar, i instinctively used economy picking. when i first learned about strict alternate picking, it didn't make any sense to me at all. why would i ever want to go around the string like that?

the pick angle just corresponds to the direction of the line. i don't have to worry about odd or even numbers of notes per string

[JakeAcci]

oh definitely, but for me it's much more intuitive

when i was first learning guitar, i instinctively used economy picking. when i first learned about strict alternate picking, it didn't make any sense to me at all. why would i ever want to go around the string like that?

the pick angle just corresponds to the direction of the line. i don't have to worry about odd or even numbers of notes per string

I hear ya, for sure. I just love the rhythmic aspect of alternate picking - I've worked a lot on syncopated accents within 8th note lines, over standards, using alternate picking, and I can't get that same time and rhythm happening with economy, but that may just be something to practice. Of course, I couldn't do that stuff at "up" tempos.

My feeling has always been that alternate picking jazz lines can have a ceiling for a lot of people in terms of tempo, and economy picking, for a consistent rhythmic figure (like all 8ths or all 16ths) has a ceiling in terms of rhythmic accuracy and control of articulation.

But I guess we could go on and on about pros and cons of alternate vs economy - there may be less "slant switching" in economy, for sure.

I emailed the Cracking the Code Guys, let's see what happens...

[JazzMuzak]

you're, of course, welcome to do what you want, and i wouldn't try to stop you one way or the other.

but for me personally, alternate picking every note on guitar is just way more trouble than it's worth. it's doable on very scalar lines, but the unpredictable string switching and syncopation that's part of jazz is way too much to manage.

kudos to you, though



post some examples of some lines/recordings that you're referring to. i'd be very interested to take a look at them.

the people i know who studied/played with Benson insist that he starts all his string changes with downstokes, except for a few scattered sweeps here and there. but i have no stake in it either way, and i'm always open to new information

I'll post some when I get a chance amidst all the chaos this semester.

Maybe I didn't properly explain myself, but what I'm suggesting is that he does start all his string changes with downstrokes. Upward pick slanting + starting on a downstroke is the perfect pairing for switching strings in a descending fashion. Then while ascending you just sweep through. It works quite well. I'm still working out the kinks and haven't totally settled on my right hand technique as I've only been using the benson grip for a few months, but it'll be most easily presented in a video. Stay tuned.

[JakeAcci]

Update: I emailed them and for my particular issues they recommended the "antigravity" section of the "masters in mechanics" series. So I subscribed and have been watching it and it seems to be answering my questions pretty well!

Also, I made myself a handy chart for efficient-string changing, I'll share it here if anybody's interested:

Obviously the swipes are easier to do with fretted notes rather than open strings.

[ludovicofitts]

This is great. Thank you.

[JakeAcci]

You're welcome.

Damn, just a few days into this stuff, not really doing any regimented practice with it, but definitely already playing things that have stumped me forever...

Still haven't nailed the things I talked about in the OP, but I really can see the path to get there now.

Highly recommend the series for anybody stumped on picking.

[fumblefingers]

So, given the VERY straightforward presentation and jazz guitar focus of Bruno 's Art of Picking (not to mention the price), what does TG offer to the jazz guitarist?

[JakeAcci]

He provides (imo invaluable) strategies for how to efficiently change strings within a line. Honestly it is mostly not genre specific, more about the engineering/mechanics of the pick itself and the strings, how they relate in space. I think something that puts TG extremely far ahead of the game is that he doesn't stress so much about wrist vs elbow, different grips or joint movements (nor which licks to practice) but instead the focus is on how the pick itself moves through and over the strings.

The information revealed is much easier to apply to "shred" oriented repetitive patterns, but we have all always known that playing a repeating scale pattern over and over is easier than playing a fast, complex "jazz" line. The mechanics still hold.

[On Sugar Hill]

I have been using the Troy Grady videos for a few months now. My overall picking is SIGNIFICANTLY better. I can actually play certain licks w/ sixteenth notes at 140-150 bpm pretty clean now. I never used to be able to do that. He's changed the way I play.

I got to take a lesson with Gilad Hekselman a few months ago. Being able to see him play up close, the first thing I was looking for was pick slanting. Surely enough, he was subconsciously doing a lot of two way pick slanting. A lot of people end up doing it naturally, but being aware of it can really help.

[JakeAcci]

I have been using the Troy Grady videos for a few months now. My overall picking is SIGNIFICANTLY better. I can actually play certain licks w/ sixteenth notes at 140-150 bpm pretty clean now. I never used to be able to do that. He's changed the way I play.

I got to take a lesson with Gilad Hekselman a few months ago. Being able to see him play up close, the first thing I was looking for was pick slanting. Surely enough, he was subconsciously doing a lot of two way pick slanting. A lot of people end up doing it naturally, but being aware of it can really help.

Yep, I think Grady's assessment is that practically 100% of the world's best pickers haven't acknowledged their slanting tendencies and think some other mechanic or variable is at play. Michael Angelo Batio, for example, one of the world's fastest, cleanest alternate pickers...had no idea he was a "two way slanter."

Even skimming the Jimmy Bruno interview it was clear as day that Jimmy Bruno was incorrect about some of his assessments of his own picking technique - the slow motion camera proved him wrong!

[Drumbler]

Two way slanting is just the natural way the pick moves.

If you just let your hand pick naturally without thinking too much about it you will do this.

[M-ster]

...

I'm trying to get more insight into:

1. HOW to do upward pick slanting, how to have more control over it, especially for ascending lines. I think there are particulars about how I hold the pick, or what my go-to motion is, that make this tricky.

2. HOW to change pick slants in the middle of a figure, and HOW to practice this stuff. It's how to go from where I'm at - total comfort with DWPS and some comfort with UWPS and some extremely basic and slow switching between the two slants - to rapid changes between slant angles for odd numbered groupings.

Thoughts? Would just buying the course reveal this info? Has he addressed these issues in videos I haven't seen? Any ideas for other resources?

So, Jake, have you gotten answers to your questions from the TG subscription? What is your assessment now? Worth doing?

[On Sugar Hill]

2. HOW to change pick slants in the middle of a figure, and HOW to practice this stuff. It's how to go from where I'm at - total comfort with DWPS and some comfort with UWPS and some extremely basic and slow switching between the two slants - to rapid changes between slant angles for odd numbered groupings.

Thoughts? Would just buying the course reveal this info? Has he addressed these issues in videos I haven't seen? Any ideas for other resources?

Thanks!

Well, I've watched a bunch of the Troy Grady videos on YouTube and a lot of lessons on his site. Here's what I'd have to say.

So you always want to do DWPS when switching strings after an upstroke. This is true whether the next string is above or below the string that the upstroke occured on. The opposite is true for changing strings after a downstroke. Use UWPS when changing strings after a downstroke whether the next string is above or below the string that the upstroke occured on. That's the basics of it.

Now for practicing it? Obviously, even note patterns will be good for practicing one way pick slanting. Play the penatonic scale starting on a downstroke for DWPS, or start it on an upstroke for UWPS.

For two way pick slanting, I think scales/modes are GREAT for this. we always end up with varying notes per string when we play scales. Normally, there are 2-3 notes per string. Here's the G major scale:

-------------------------------------------------------------2---3---5
----------------------------------------------------3----5------------
--------------------------------------2---4---5-----------------------
------------------------2---4---5-------------------------------------
-----------2---3---5--------------------------------------------------
--3---5----------------------------------------------------------------

-So the first string, we have two notes (G A). We will start w/ a down stroke in DWPS
-Second string, we have 3 notes (B C D) D U D. Before you play the third note D, change the angle of the pick so it's UWPS
-Third string, we have 3 notes again (E F# G) U D U. Before you play the third note G, change the angle of the pick so it's back to DWPS, since we are about to change strings after an upstroke
-Fourth string, we have 3 notes again, (A B C) but back to D U D. It will be the same as the second string where we change the angle of the pick to UWPS since are switching strings after a downstroke.
-Fifth string, we only have two notes (D E). Since it's an even number, we can remain in UWPS since we will be changing after a downstroke again.
-Sixth string, we are back to three notes (F# G A), so we can switch to DWPS

Do this for all the modes of major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor. Also, learn some bebop heads and think about the picking as you're learning it. A lot of the slurs/legatos from bebop charts give our right hand a little freedom, but it can help to slant the pick to adjust for some of the difficult bebop patterns.


Keep in mind, that you don't HAVE to change angle right before the last note of each string. As long as you adjust the angle by the time you are playing the last note on each string, you should be fine.

Any kind of three note per string pattern is great for alternate pick slanting. Check out the "Pepsi Lick" video on Troy Grady's YouTube channel.