Troy Grady - Two way pick slanting (Cracking the Code)

[ghoststrat]

how can you know if he's slanting since you can't see the pick?

And Christianm77, there's no way you can play pentatonic pattern sweeps at 16th notes @160bmp with 2 and 3 note per string patterns alternating so rapidly doing up and down directions every 2 or 3 notes with slanting. It's just not physically possible and would be so much wasted movement that you would never be able to play fast. I still think you guys are confusing the idea of playing ascending from low to high string and then descending from high to low string with changing direction continually all over the place. As I said before, if you're winding your way through a pattern where all the sweeps are ascending it's easy to tilt that way and then tilt the other way when you start descending but if you're truly improvising or playing a pattern that changes direction continuously it's impossible to uptilt and downtilt. You'd waste too much motion.

There may be some slight angle changes but the changes are definitely not +45 and -45.

I'm not sure who the first sentence was directed at, but if it was at me, then: watch the thumb. Also, at the very end of the video is a closeup of his right hand. It'll also drive the point home about the thumb movement facilitating the pick angle. Start at ~0:35

As far as -/+ 45 pick angle is concerned, I don't think I mentioned that, so it may be someone else, but maybe I did. Speaking to that, though, the angle isn't that drastic. I have ~220 Troy Grady clips on my hard drive, and have been through all of them, as well as the stuff on the web, and on thing he emphasizes is that often times the change in pick angle is very, very subtle, in addition to it being reflexive on the part of the player. Again, you're probably right in that FG doesn't adjust his pick angle during the passages you're referring to, but the thing that sticks out in my mind is that if the right hand is relaxed, then the resistance the string provides is enough to adjust the angle of the pick in the direction it needs to go for what we're talking about, so no *actual* physical/conscious adjustment is made, it's by default.

[ghoststrat]

One more thing regarding pick angle. A players default pick angle is usually the more pronounced when looking at the bi-directional thing.

[christianm77]

@Jack - what swept pentatonic patterns do you mean specifically - I presume you aren't talking about the regular odd notes a string ascending and descending patterns you see Frank demonstrating in clinics etc? It might help the discussion if you could give an example.

I'm not sure if you fully understood my last post - I am agreeing with what you are saying. When I used to do two way sweep/economy pick I didn't use any conscious tilting of the pick and it used to work fine. The pick didn't move much but it wasn't totally rigid either.

[EDS]

how can you know if he's slanting since you can't see the pick?

And Christianm77, there's no way you can play pentatonic pattern sweeps at 16th notes @160bmp with 2 and 3 note per string patterns alternating so rapidly doing up and down directions every 2 or 3 notes with slanting. It's just not physically possible and would be so much wasted movement that you would never be able to play fast. I still think you guys are confusing the idea of playing ascending from low to high string and then descending from high to low string with changing direction continually all over the place. As I said before, if you're winding your way through a pattern where all the sweeps are ascending it's easy to tilt that way and then tilt the other way when you start descending but if you're truly improvising or playing a pattern that changes direction continuously it's impossible to uptilt and downtilt. You'd waste too much motion.

There may be some slight angle changes but the changes are definitely not +45 and -45.

im pretty sure theres a troy grady video where he demonstrates slanting with each string change using 3 note per string scales

[christianm77]

im pretty sure theres a troy grady video where he demonstrates slanting with each string change using 3 note per string scales

Mechanically there is nothing in sweep picking that is difficult in the same way as there can be in alternate or dwps picking styles - all the combinations are pretty easy.

Sometimes you need to alternate quickly on one string, but that's true of any picking approach, and it's one of the easier aspects of alternate picking - though not itself without challenge. (I also personally find it a lot easier to alternate after a sweep and then go into another sweep rather just playing a fast lick on one string, but that's probably because of the type of stuff I practice as a jazzer.)

I see it more as a left hand style because either you organise your fingerings FG style so they always work or you sneak in some hammer ons and pull offs.

That's where the challenge is IMO - that and keeping the highly optimised right hand movements in time which is where I would say FG is in very select company along with Bruno and a few others.

According to Troy an important aspect of pickslanting is to ensure that the pick misses the next string on the recovery stroke. In dwps picking, the pick slant ensures that the pick clears the next string up on the upstroke so that outside picking following a downstroke is never a problem. On the other hand, end a string on a downstroke and - well you're stuck. Triplet picking practice for you sonny Jim. (Montagne St Genevieve has some horrendous licks for this BTW - no wonder it's such an etude/rite of passage...)

However, in sweep picking you never do any outside picking - so why is pick slanting necessary at all? You can rest stroke pick as much as you like and there's absolutely no need to change your pick angle.

Interesting thing is - Gambale clearly does change his pick stance slightly when playing descending runs - how is a matter of debate here. But why? Maybe I'm missing something...

[christianm77]

So - if you want to employ pure FG sweep picking no pick slanting necessary - however what if you want to economy pick something like this?

------------------------8--11--8
---------------------9-------------9
-------------8--10--------------------10--8
---------10------------------------------------10
--8--11---------------------------------------------11--8
------

From my own experiments, I can get this pretty fast using two way slant - down going up, up going down - the first half is a piece of cake with dwps, so it stand to reason the second half ought to be easy with upws and it is. Haven't measured it yet. The bottleneck will be how one deals with the top string... I'd probably sneak in a hammer.

My own technique I think is basically dwps, unless uwps is absolutely necessary. This can be quite intuitive, but I find being aware of my wrist position does help a bit.

[jzucker]

Christian, this is the type of pattern i'm talking about (from Sheets of Sound for Guitar Vol I)

[jzucker]

Watch the video again. There is no upward slant of the pick. The thumb cannot even achieve that goal by flexing/relaxing. When he adjusts his thumb he's merely reducing the forward rotation angle of the pick. The pick is still angled downward the entire time. And even the rotation angle is only varied slightly.

I'm not sure who the first sentence was directed at, but if it was at me, then: watch the thumb. Also, at the very end of the video is a closeup of his right hand. It'll also drive the point home about the thumb movement facilitating the pick angle. Start at ~0:35

As far as -/+ 45 pick angle is concerned, I don't think I mentioned that, so it may be someone else, but maybe I did. Speaking to that, though, the angle isn't that drastic. I have ~220 Troy Grady clips on my hard drive, and have been through all of them, as well as the stuff on the web, and on thing he emphasizes is that often times the change in pick angle is very, very subtle, in addition to it being reflexive on the part of the player. Again, you're probably right in that FG doesn't adjust his pick angle during the passages you're referring to, but the thing that sticks out in my mind is that if the right hand is relaxed, then the resistance the string provides is enough to adjust the angle of the pick in the direction it needs to go for what we're talking about, so no *actual* physical/conscious adjustment is made, it's by default.

[ghoststrat]

Watch the video again. There is no upward slant of the pick. The thumb cannot even achieve that goal by flexing/relaxing. When he adjusts his thumb he's merely reducing the forward rotation angle of the pick. The pick is still angled downward the entire time. And even the rotation angle is only varied slightly.

I must be misunderstanding you then, because to me there is a different in angle in these two pictures taken from the vid. Expand the pictures and take a close look:

Upward:


Down:


Higher resolution:

2016-03-25_2017 - displaynamethatisnt's library

2016-03-25_2017 - displaynamethatisnt's library


What I see:

2016-03-25_2023 - displaynamethatisnt's library

2016-03-25_2023 - displaynamethatisnt's library

I'm not trying to be fractious, I want to understand what you're saying, so I can learn from it. In order to do that, I figure I need to clarify what I'm seeing so you can point out the error in my thought process.

Also, I've seen a few videos where Grady is pointing out how the flexion of the thumb is actually subtly changing the angle of the pick, though some people do it with a more pronounced motion. Again, I have to be misunderstanding you because a few of the things you're saying are conflicting with what I've seen and confirmed with my own eyes.

[jzucker]

yes there is a different rotational angle, not a different slant angle. The slant angle is the pick direction from top to bottom where the pick is angled upward to make it easier to play down-strokes. He does rotate the pick but even there he's not doing more than about a 10 degree rotation and he's not rotating significantly on lines like the one I posted. Try playing that at 16th notes at 160 and see if you can change the rotation for every down and upstroke.

[christianm77]

Christian, this is the type of pattern i'm talking about (from Sheets of Sound for Guitar Vol I)

Thanks. That makes things really clear. I certainly see your point. There's a lot to think about here.

A question springs to mind right away - did you transcribe or otherwise acquire this material from FG and what is the source for the fingerings?

I ask this because of the transitions from the last and first note of each bar where the direction change is after one note each time. Would Frank really finger them like this if the rule is even notes for direction changes?

They are pretty awkward, I would say. Have you got a video of you performing this exercise? It would be very interesting to watch to see how you handle this hurdle.

On the other hand if you put the E at the end of bar 1 on the 5th string, that would obviate the awkward direction change, but of course, but you would have to change the picking somehow. I don't think you could do this and preserve the sweeping rules. Perhaps there is a way I haven't thought of.

To be honest this type of mental maths is why I never really saw the appeal of pure FG sweeping as a technique. :-) I would probably just refinger the exercise with an even number of notes per string and alternate pick the whole thing with dwps - although I daresay I would struggle to get it faster than 16ths at 160 lol. But I can live with that ;-)

[ghoststrat]

yes there is a different rotational angle, not a different slant angle. The slant angle is the pick direction from top to bottom where the pick is angled upward to make it easier to play down-strokes. He does rotate the hand but even there he's not doing more than about a 10 degree rotation and he's not rotating significantly on lines like the one I posted. Try playing that at 16th notes at 160 and see if you can change the rotation for every down and upstroke.

Two things:

This is exactly what I'd say if we were on the phone: "dude! I can't play that at 160, let me try to hit 90 and I'll get back to you!" Then I'd laugh nervously. Because, seriously.. I can't.

I'm going to put some serious time in tonight and think through the things you've said, because we may be talking about the same thing, but I want to thoroughly understand it from your point of view before I commit to it. By the way, a 10 degree rotation is within the necessary angle adjustment to be what we're discussing. I think the word, "slant" might be where we're misaligned.

[jzucker]

No, this is not something I got from frank. It's an exercise inspired by gambale, eric johnson and dave creamer.

[jzucker]

Two things:

This is exactly what I'd say if we were on the phone: "dude! I can't play that at 160, let me try to hit 90 and I'll get back to you!" Then I'd laugh nervously. Because, seriously.. I can't.

I'm going to put some serious time in tonight and think through the things you've said, because we may be talking about the same thing, but I want to thoroughly understand it from your point of view before I commit to it. By the way, a 10 degree rotation is within the necessary angle adjustment to be what we're discussing. I think the word, "slant" might be where we're misaligned.

yeah, i agree. It seems to be a difference in nomenclature. To me, there is slant and there is rotation. I think you guys have been saying slant when you mean rotation...

[christianm77]

I'm sure you watched it already, but I'll post for two reason - a) it breaks down really clearly what Troy is talking about and gives some good RH footage and secondly because Marshall Harrison is really ridiculous at sweeping.

MH is doing some VERY subtle pick rotation here when playing on just tow strings and much more pronounced movements when sweeping across several....

Troy has some interesting things to say about that he makes an exaggerated angle change...

TBH I think pick slanting is something that just happens if you practice certain combinations of pick stroke over and over again. Your body adapts - that is if you are physically intuitive and relaxed. No one ever said anything about pick slatning when I learned gypsy style, but because I was practicing all those downstroke things, my pick angle naturally ended up in that position, for example.

That's why I'd like to see you play that exercise Jack, because I'd love to see what your RH does when it hits the end of the bar.

A more technical, scientific approach may have its place though.

I have to say that for me trying out some economy stuff again, the right hand is the easy bit. It's much much more of a challenge to get the left hand right!

[jzucker]

after watching a bunch of those videos, I really think the whole pick slanting thing is over-exaggerated. The pick will naturally flow in the direction of the lines. To actively try to slant the pick while playing i think is inherently wrong and will cause examples such as the one I posted from my book to not work at all. I think the examples that troy films in slow motion are just the natural movement of the pick when doing a lot of either downward sweeps or upward sweeps and he mentions that several times in fact. Where the technical aspects of this go awry in my opinion is folks trying to manually do the slanting. Let the musical material along with the directional aspect of the melodic line help you flow in the proper direction but attempting to manually slant your pick back and forth as you play the pattern I posted will make things worse IMO...

[christianm77]

after watching a bunch of those videos, I really think the whole pick slanting thing is over-exaggerated. The pick will naturally flow in the direction of the lines. To actively try to slant the pick while playing i think is inherently wrong and will cause examples such as the one I posted from my book to not work at all. I think the examples that troy films in slow motion are just the natural movement of the pick when doing a lot of either downward sweeps or upward sweeps and he mentions that several times in fact. Where the technical aspects of this go awry in my opinion is folks trying to manually do the slanting. Let the musical material along with the directional aspect of the melodic line help you flow in the proper direction but attempting to manually slant your pick back and forth as you play the pattern I posted will make things worse IMO...

I think Troy basically says this - in the video I posted he says it just happens if you hold the pick a little loosely and sweep (which is what I said - nice!). He seems much more interested in the fact that two way pick slanting can help with non sweep applications - such as alternate picking challenges etc, and it's more that pick slanting emerges from sweeping rather than the other way around.

So - I think Troy and you might be more in agreement than it first seems.

[ghoststrat]

after watching a bunch of those videos, I really think the whole pick slanting thing is over-exaggerated. The pick will naturally flow in the direction of the lines. To actively try to slant the pick while playing i think is inherently wrong and will cause examples such as the one I posted from my book to not work at all. I think the examples that troy films in slow motion are just the natural movement of the pick when doing a lot of either downward sweeps or upward sweeps and he mentions that several times in fact. Where the technical aspects of this go awry in my opinion is folks trying to manually do the slanting. Let the musical material along with the directional aspect of the melodic line help you flow in the proper direction but attempting to manually slant your pick back and forth as you play the pattern I posted will make things worse IMO...

That's the principle behind Grady's stuff; it's for diagnosing and showing possible solutions to pre-existing picking problems in someone's natural approach, it's not for a beginner to go to it to decide how they'll pick.

Now that I think about it, some of 'bigger picture' videos might be good for beginning players to watch so they get some of the fundamental concepts in their head at the outset, but that's another topic altogether.

[jzucker]

I think Troy basically says this - in the video I posted he says it just happens if you hold the pick a little loosely and sweep (which is what I said - nice!). He seems much more interested in the fact that two way pick slanting can help with non sweep applications - such as alternate picking challenges etc, and it's more that pick slanting emerges from sweeping rather than the other way around.

So - I think Troy and you might be more in agreement than it first seems.

Well, keep in mind that his chops are in a different league than mine so I totally defer to him in that regard. I'm just saying that sometimes it's possible to over-analyze. There are 2 problems with regards to teaching technique that are hard to overcome...

There are guys who don't realize what they are doing and there are guys who realize what they are doing "after the fact" and attribute the minute details of their approach to their success. In fact, I think when you spend 4-6 hours a day practicing this material - as malmsteen, gambale and EJ obviously have done - your technique will mold itself to match the material you are practicing. So looking at the minute details of someone who has spent 40,000 hours or more practicing this stuff and thinking it's going to help you when you are practicing an hour a day on it may not be the most efficient use of time! And you may end up working on something that is counter to your particular physical approach to the instrument.

[jzucker]

p.s. just tried deliberately slant pickup down and up (with angle not rotation) on the example I posted and it's just ridiculous. Did you guys try it?

[christianm77]

Well, keep in mind that his chops are in a different league than mine so I totally defer to him in that regard. I'm just saying that sometimes it's possible to over-analyze. There are 2 problems with regards to teaching technique that are hard to overcome...

There are guys who don't realize what they are doing and there are guys who realize what they are doing "after the fact" and attribute the minute details of their approach to their success. In fact, I think when you spend 4-6 hours a day practicing this material - as malmsteen, gambale and EJ obviously have done - your technique will mold itself to match the material you are practicing. So looking at the minute details of someone who has spent 40,000 hours or more practicing this stuff and thinking it's going to help you when you are practicing an hour a day on it may not be the most efficient use of time! And you may end up working on something that is counter to your particular physical approach to the instrument.

Yes, you are right, I think. That applies to a lot of stuff actually - including how people work on rhythm and improvisation.

What Troy is trying to do is get rid of the accidental aspect.

[christianm77]

p.s. just tried deliberately slant pickup down and up (with angle not rotation) on the example I posted and it's just ridiculous. Did you guys try it?

You are using a different pick angle for up and down? As in the angle with the strings?

[jzucker]

You are using a different pick angle for up and down? As in the angle with the strings?

That's what I tried and it was a disaster on that particular line. I think the slant in the direction of the sweep works best for lines that are primarily one direction or the other, not on lines that change direction constantly...

[christianm77]

Two way pick slanting in GJ picking - look carefully at Yurgui's hand position at half speed at 1:20 on the descending G
major arpeggio. Just sneaks it in.

I've heard a few gypsy guys play blazing arpeggios descending - which of course is difficult/impossible with traditional GJ technique. It's not as obvious as Birelli's upsweeps, but it's interesting that even in these relatively traditional settings, a bit of two way pick slanting is very occasionally employed to make things playable...

However - his 8th triplets are proper dud dud all the way - difficult, but possible at this tempo.

Also check out Boulou Ferret's arpeggios at 4:21 on the same piece - Gambale tastic! I'm not saying I can see his right hand - but is that even possible without upslanting? Not sure... Would need to break it down.

[MatsP]

Frank is not alternating between down and up-slanting when he plays his swept pentatonic patterns. The transition between up and down sweeping happens every 2 notes. There's no way you could play a pattern like that with 16 notes equal to 160 and above with alternating up and down slanting. The best approach is to have the pick flat so you are not cheating one way or the other or it will make rapid transitions impossible.

It's different for the heavy metal players who tend to sweep an entire arpeggio from low to high and back to low. You can easily employ pick slanting for that but for jazz players, the string change directions happen too often.

+1 on keeping the pick fairly flat. The "slanting" happens automatically as it glides over the strings.