-
In a different thread in the improvisation section, we were discussing the value of learning triads. The George Van Epp Guitar Methods book was recommended. I purchased and downloaded a copy and it looks like a fun journey. But his method stresses using a pick. I'm primarily a fingerstyle player. Is it folly to try to work through his book using fingerstyle instead of a pick?
-
09-22-2015 11:03 PM
-
nope, go for it. Just make sure that the transitions between chords are as legato as possible. Read all the paragraphs in the intro and before each new section before moving on. He explains everything. This method was during his unamplifed (?) days when the pick allowed him to be heard above the band (correct me if I'm wrong). You can hear his playing under this guise here:
Steve Herberman (when I took some Skype lessons with him) told me that a lot of the Jump Sessions (like the video posted) are done pick style. I forgot if he said that "I Wrote It for Jo" was also done in the plectrum style.
But GVE was an electric fingerstylist in his later years and his later studies really depend on fingerstyle (I am still stubbornly trying to make em work with a plectrum.
If Rob was back here, he'd give you the whole 9 yards on GVE... Rob come back
Last edited by Irez87; 09-23-2015 at 12:42 AM.
-
Horrible fidelity, but just a taste of it "in person"
Oh, George, how I would have loved to study with you in person.
Add Ted Green, Johnny Smith, Dennis Sandole, Sal Salvador, and Barry Galbraith to that list (these are the only players I know of who, historically, devoted themselves to teaching as well as playing)
-
Most classical guitarists I've turned on to GVE love to play his stuff.
-
relistened to that ted greene interview(i linked above)…great stuff!!..van eps was a genius... on many fronts
cheers
-
Anyone here lucky enough to have studied with him?
-
I saw him play live when I lived Los Angeles in the 1980s. I would love to have studied with him as well as Allan Reuss and George M. Smith. I knew two very lucky guys who took lessons from George Barnes.
-
George Barnes might have had the most unique clean sound in the business, IMO. He does not shy away from his country twang, and his bends and slides. But every note works. His stuff with Ruby Braff is quite amazing, no?
Last edited by Irez87; 09-23-2015 at 01:35 PM.
-
I agree. Barnes bright, clean tone is immediately identifiable and his vocabulary is definitely influenced by the blues and hot jazz he heard growing up in Chicago. I think that the most important aspect of his playing is that unlike the majority of electric guitarists who tried to sound and phrase like horn players, Barnes never ignored the idiomatic aspects of the guitar such as bends, slides and vibrato and used them to good effect. Also not to be overlooked is how joyous and happy his solos sounded. He was definitely one of a kind and deserves more recognition.
Originally Posted by Irez87
-
Originally Posted by Irez87
nope, go for it. Just make sure that the transitions between chords are as legato as possible. Read all the paragraphs in the intro and before each new section before moving on. He explains everything. This method was during his unamplifed (?) days when the pick allowed him to be heard above the band (correct me if I'm wrong). You can hear his playing under this guise here:
Steve Herberman (when I took some Skype lessons with him) told me that a lot of the Jump Sessions (like the video posted) are done pick style. I forgot if he said that "I Wrote It for Jo" was also done in the plectrum style.
But GVE was an electric fingerstylist in his later years and his later studies really depend on fingerstyle (I am still stubbornly trying to make em work with a plectrum.
If Rob was back here, he'd give you the whole 9 yards on GVE... Rob come back
GVE is rather clear in his instructions to follow his fingering precisely, early on. This is really different than a lot of contemporary teachers that i have encountered that have said don't worry about the fingering. It will work itself out. But GVE seems to imply that it's critical to following his method. Is this because he was a forerunner of chord melody playing, or is his fingering really critical to his approach? I have to say that even in the first few exercises, his fingering does make so much sense allowing really smooth transitions and following his instructions does force me to use the same fingering each time I go through the exercises.
-
Fingering does not work itself out in a musical sense. Van Eps' fingerings are placed to specifically develop the "machinery" of the hands, so that if one heard a sound in one's head, the ability to play it would be part of your vocabulary. He was a deep thinker and a very accomplished person who applies lots of advanced engineering concepts to guitar-playing. Following his fingering and practicing it well, (slowly with several repetitions) virtually guarantees a better technique in general. If you are doing this for your own pleasure, you might want to see if you can find his book of original compositions, they're quite musical. Van Eps and Johnny Smith share the Guitar Master mountaintop with few others; they both were very intelligent, tasteful musicians, and they both played the guitar about as well as it could be played. Originally Posted by larryb
-
Johnny Smith was strict about fingerings to facilitate his shifts and his picking.
George Van Eps was strict about fingerings to facilitate his shifts and his picking.
Van Eps and Johnny Smith share the Guitar Master mountaintop with few others; they both were very intelligent, tasteful musicians, and they both played the guitar about as well as it could be played.
They both approached the guitar like rocket scientists. They both had an incredible sense to detail in their teaching methods. And... if you really pay attention to their mechanisms, you will learn more about how the guitar works (and finger movement) than in any other guitar publication out now and then.
Yes, they are that good
-
Originally Posted by Irez87
Johnny Smith was strict about fingerings to facilitate his shifts and his picking.
George Van Eps was strict about fingerings to facilitate his shifts and his picking.
Van Eps and Johnny Smith share the Guitar Master mountaintop with few others; they both were very intelligent, tasteful musicians, and they both played the guitar about as well as it could be played.
They both approached the guitar like rocket scientists. They both had an incredible sense to detail in their teaching methods. And... if you really pay attention to their mechanisms, you will learn more about how the guitar works (and finger movement) than in any other guitar publication out now and then.
Yes, they are that good
Well, all of you have convinced me to dig in to GVE's Guitar Method and to really get serious about this. In my second week now and while at first the first 6 forms seem simplistic, the discipline of adhering to his fingering just makes so much more sense than I had at first imagined, the more that I practice these. Looking forward to really honing in on this over the next year or 2 or 10 and seeing where it takes me.
-
Can we just post that in every thread? I'm serious! Everything I try to explain, Van Eps explains with finesse in that interview.
Dig his whole side track of building model rail road locomotives on a dare. I used to love trains as a kid. Thomas, anyone? Where's Ringo?
-
choo choo!..plus he planed his own fretboards and fretted his own guitars…cobbled together his 7 string pup!!..from a family of watchmakers and musicians!!..perfect!!
and nothing but good to say about epi founder…epi stathopoloulo…who should have a larger footnote in the history of archtops..delivered van eps the 7 string van eps designed (in his mind) in 7 weeks!!..van eps loved epi and epiphone guitars!
cheers
ps- and dig who wrote that article in pic..barry galbraith!..no slouch himself
pps- & van eps designed and handmade those string dampers..you see pics of all the heavies with them..jim hall, kessel etc etcLast edited by neatomic; 09-29-2015 at 09:00 PM. Reason: ps'-
-
If I could get my hands on an OLD Epiphone, before Gibson tarnished his name, I would be a happy man indeed.
-
I'm digging into GVP's Guitar Method book. The book seems designed for use with a pick, but I'm fingers only, all the way. Does modifying his exercises in the right hand using fingerstyle only diminish the effectiveness of his method and for accomplishing his intentions?
-
Absolutely not; in fact, Van Eps switched to fingerstyle not long after this first book was published. You'll find that playing the triads and excercises with p-i-m and i-m-a will develop good strength and independence in the right hand. If you complete that book, you may want to go on to Harmonic Mechanisms.
-
GVE's stuff is so finger style oriented, that I was allowed to play it for my jury in CG for my master's degree in music at a college that was a classical school (no jazz dept.).
I've studied with only two jazz guitar teachers; the first one was a Johnny Smith fanatic, so I learned how to arr. solos in the basically rubato JS style, played with a plectrum.
The second was a GVE fanatic, and I learned how to arr. solos in the in tempo GVE style, played fingerstyle.Last edited by sgcim; 10-06-2015 at 09:34 PM.
-
Yes, that Johnny Smith never amounted to anything with his cocktail-piano guitar.
I look forward to your recordings that go down in jazz history as Moonlight In Vermont has.
-
Moonlight in VT. was in tempo.
-
Yes, it was. But I guess you think that Segovia and John Williams were playing cocktail music as well.
Rubato is a part of musicianship. Looking down on it shows a lack of understanding and maturity. Van Eps OFTEN used rubato in the intros to his arrangements, by the way. It's part of the musical expression toolbox.
-
don't run before you walk. Walk, don't run
Thoroughly internalize the George Van Eps Method for Guitar before (italics are killing my patience, retyping stuff by accident, grrr) you get into the Harmonic Mechanisms. Trust me, it will be time well spent. And yes, you can approach the book with fingerstyle. But make sure your transitions between chords are as smooth as butter before you move on to the next study. The Guitar Method has more detail about the physical mechanisms of playing the guitar than any other modern book I've read on the market. George and Johnny were the mad scientists of our craft. Johnny's Method book is pretty amazing as well. I've been studying his triad arpeggios as well as the Segovia scales to get my shifts on. I love those position shifts, they quite liberating. Almost as liberating as pulling off your tie and plopping down on the couch after a LONG day....mmmmm....
-
Yes, I completely agree with you. Rubato is extremely effective for intros, the first chorus, contrast etc... Originally Posted by ronjazz
I'm talking about these young players today who play all of their chord melodies rubato.
Johnny Smith, Segovia, Williams and others are great masters. When they used rubato, it was because the composer specified it.
All of Smith's solo guitar arrangements are great works of art- period.
I've even edited that stupid comment out of my original post.Last edited by sgcim; 10-17-2015 at 09:45 PM.
-
Hi again. So, I've been into GVE Guitar Method for around 6 weeks. And I know I've got years ahead more to go in this book. But as I go through the exercises, I still wonder what the long term goals and objectives are. At this point, I'm learning and practicing the exercises as he says to do, but I feel like I am accepting on faith that this is leading somewhere; but I don't know where. Is there something I need to be doing with these exercises beyond the exercises themselves? How should I be applying them? Or are they simply designed to develop dexterity? I'd appreciate any help, advice and suggestions. Thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale