George Van Epps and fingerstyle

[va3ux]

I've been through the whole book. If he intended to impart some musical knowledge with all those harmonized scales, he didn't say what he intended and I didn't get it. Perhaps my lack of musical training caused me to overlook the point (or the obvious). I consider them to be very good technical exercises designed to develop dexterity, economy of motion, etc. But I have a feeling he may have intended more than that.

[targuit]

I am not trying to start a flame war or anything like that, but I feel that this attitude of searching for the Holy Grail and Secret Scriptures of technique supposedly in the hands of certain Ninja guitar warriors is kind of misguided.

I tried looking a Van Eps method books and while I never spent more than an evening working on them, I could not discern much of unique value. I am classically trained and have been playing for over fifty years. My technique is evolving but that is dependent of me, not some prescription to play notes and phrases in an exact manner engraved in stone.

In fact, I find that one of the beauties and 'unique' characteristics of the guitar is that there different fingerings to play the same notes depending on fret position and your preferences for fingering transitions. Ultimately, it comes down to making the music happen, no matter what the fingering. It comes down to you and what feels right. A last example - when I watch Pat Metheny play, I literally cringe inside at his technical approach to fretting, yet he is a Grammy winner and apparently does not suffer from tendinitis or other debilitating consequences of his approach. It works for him and that is what counts.

[larryb]

And that is exactly my question. Is GVE method primarily a technique building method, or is it a step towards improvisation, and I understand that technique and improvisation are not mutually exclusive. I just want to spend my time well. I have decent chops. Not virtuosic, but decent. So many pros on here have suggested, "spend your time learning tunes and use them as the basis of improving technique as the situation calls for it." Is the hour I put into GVE each day, on top of everything else, worth it or would my time be better spent using that additional hour on tunes. Not looking for a magic bullet and just want to practice in a way that gets best results.

I am not trying to start a flame war or anything like that, but I feel that this attitude of searching for the Holy Grail and Secret Scriptures of technique supposedly in the hands of certain Ninja guitar warriors is kind of misguided.

I tried looking a Van Eps method books and while I never spent more than an evening working on them, I could not discern much of unique value. I am classically trained and have been playing for over fifty years. My technique is evolving but that is dependent of me, not some prescription to play notes and phrases in an exact manner engraved in stone.

In fact, I find that one of the beauties and 'unique' characteristics of the guitar is that there different fingerings to play the same notes depending on fret position and your preferences for fingering transitions. Ultimately, it comes down to making the music happen, no matter what the fingering. It comes down to you and what feels right. A last example - when I watch Pat Metheny play, I literally cringe inside at his technical approach to fretting, yet he is a Grammy winner and apparently does not suffer from tendinitis or other debilitating consequences of his approach. It works for him and that is what counts.

[targuit]

Larry, my 2 cents would be this. I do believe firmly in developing a sound technical foundation. Although some might disagree, classical technique was an excellent foundation for approaching jazz, as it true for so many jazz musicians though they may be pianists and wind players.

Simple things. Segovia's edition of Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. Develop strength, dexterity, tone. Absolute fret board knowledge of every note on the neck. Twelve keys. And yes, it is critical imo to harmonize the scales. But not esoteric exercises. The chords and melody exist in the fret positions. Find the chord fragments. It is all about voice leading. I think you learn more about voice leading by playing the music and understanding what you are doing than by reading a "how to" manual or wasting time with Van Eps esoteric method. I found little of real value, though admittedly I did not study his method in depth. I just played through the exercises to the point where I realized there was nothing there I needed or did not already know and have at my command.

Learn jazz tunes or other songs. Develop your ears. Learn notation. Use a notation software program. Understand basic chord construction. And play, play, play....and then watch as your skills mature and blossom. Find your own voice and your own way by imitation, assimilation and finally innovation or simply creation.

It's not a cookbook recipe. It is a journey into the imagination.

[larryb]

It's not a cookbook recipe. It is a journey into the imagination.

That's about the best piece of advice I've ever gotten, musically or otherwise.

[GuitarGerry]

A last example - when I watch Pat Metheny play, I literally cringe inside at his technical approach to fretting, yet he is a Grammy winner and apparently does not suffer from tendinitis or other debilitating consequences of his approach. It works for him and that is what counts.

Don't worry, I'm not picking a fight. What is it about his technique that you consider to be poor? I've never really followed Metheny's career, so can't say one way or the other, but would be interested to hear.

[va3ux]

In a different thread in the improvisation section, we were discussing the value of learning triads. The George Van Epp Guitar Methods book was recommended. I purchased and downloaded a copy and it looks like a fun journey. But his method stresses using a pick. I'm primarily a fingerstyle player. Is it folly to try to work through his book using fingerstyle instead of a pick?

Larry, I used finger style for that entire book as I recall. I may have used a pick occasionally just to see if I remembered how to use one. This book is more about left hand technique than anything as far as I can see. Don't worry about pick vs fingers.

[targuit]

Don't worry, I'm not picking a fight. What is it about his technique that you consider to be poor? I've never really followed Metheny's career, so can't say one way or the other, but would be interested to hear.

I am a longtime Pat Metheny fan from the first time I saw him perform in Miami on a big stage back in 1973 or so. He was still in college likely. But when you watch his fretting hand position, his technique is not one to be recommended in my opinion. Rather than arch the left wrist to address the fret board, his wrist always seems rotated the opposite way. I cannot understand how he does not experience tendinitis or carpal tunnel type problems with this approach. But I cannot argue with his musicianship or results.

Of course, it isn't to say "my way or the highway", but as a physician/musician, I would dissuade any aspiring young guitarist from adopting Metheny's style. Of course, perhaps Pat has large hands or his anatomy permits him to use his fretting hand in that manner.

Here is a video that shows him playing solo -lovely interpretation of And I Love Her. Note the rotational aspect of the fretting hand and the position of his thumb which he often uses to fret bass notes. It would seem to put great strain on the left hand. Maybe that is why he often makes those agonized 'guitar faces'....

[christianm77]

My thoughts on left hand technique are that the technique should follow what you are trying to do.

For developing a chord melodic, polyphonic style then a technique similar to classical left hand is the only healthy way to do this. GVE is a case in point. Methodical fingering is basically mandatory.

Many players now use classical left hand even for melodic playing. Many sound great.

If you are a more melody based player like pat, the three fingered grab and whack approach is perfect my aporopriate - it's actually not unlike violin technique. Slamming down the fingers is actually a perfectly legitimate way to develop a legato sound (cellists do this kind of thing habitually, cello requires a lot more left hand strength.) Here, you can base you playing more around the string fingers and slides. I see nothing wrong with pats technique. In many ways I wish I played more like that and less classical. I think you get more vibe and a stronger tone using the 'wrong' approach.

Most of the big name classic players in fact used this technique with the exception of Jim hall. In gypsy jazz guitar you have to thumb fret chords or it doesn't sound right - obviously the same is true with many rock and blues players.

Miles Okazaki is one of the few recent jazz players to consciously adopt the three fingered approach, under the influence of Charlie christian.

Beware the things that are in the middle. Bent wrist in particular.

[targuit]

I see your point, Christian, but I disagree that Pat's technique is any kind of model for an aspiring guitarist - at least from a physiologic medical POV. Those series of videos on his baritone guitar playing solo pieces really illustrate what I would never teach a young kid to adopt. But hey, it works for Pat.

I am classically trained, so I do have a bias. Still, it is not even comfortable to fret bass notes with the thumb and with that wrist rotated in that way. Awkward to say the least. And completely unnecessary. I play along to all of his solo baritone and normal guitar solos. Piece of cake in the classical style.

[christianm77]

I see your point, Christian, but I disagree that Pat's technique is any kind of model for an aspiring guitarist - at least from a physiologic medical POV. Those series of videos on his baritone guitar playing solo pieces really illustrate what I would never teach a young kid to adopt. But hey, it works for Pat.

I am classically trained, so I do have a bias. Still, it is not even comfortable to fret bass notes with the thumb and with that wrist rotated in that way. Awkward to say the least. And completely unnecessary. I play along to all of his solo baritone and normal guitar solos. Piece of cake in the classical style.

I am classically trained also and while I am certainly no classical player these days, I have taught students segovian technique. I also play the lute. The biggest health issue I have had through playing classical guitar with big stretches (Bach) without using a guitar support and a correct posture 15 years back - from this I learned (eventually) that anything that collapses the carpal tunnel coupled with stretches is a recipe for trouble. I didn't have a teacher at the time. Be very careful of this thumb behind players, please.

In this sense thumb over is much safer as it ensures a straight wrist and an open carpal tunnel.

I can't currently watch the metheny video due to bandwidth issues, but I have never seen metheny do anything anything that would concern me.

I would say that you will never be able to duplicate Pat's sound using a conventional positional four finger technique, but this may not be the aim in your case. Copying his note choices at tempo might be the thing for you. Personally I am quite interested in trying to mimic a player's sound in order to refine my own understanding. Often note choices are pedestrian and thing that makes them hip is the phrasing, rhythm and so on. A lot of this comes from the physical aspect of playing the instrument as well as the ear of the player.

Most of my favourite guitar players played the 'wrong' way, so naturally I start thinking 'how could they play without being able to stretch'', 'How can django play with two fingers?' and so on. Eventually I came to the conclusion that their self taught approach far from holding them back was actually contributing to their sound and musicality. Pat, like jimi, wes and django is a case in point.

So as a result, I would say the thumb over the top approach is a valid model for an aspiring player, provided that player is primarily interested in the 'horn' tradition of the guitar instead of 'lap piano' - there is of course no reason why you can't master both.

I think of the thumb over technique as the 'American' or even 'African American' technique as it allows the player more control over rhythmic left hand muting as well as obviously bends and so on, while due to the impossibility of stretches, shifts are much more common in melodic playing adding to a naturally vocal sound (although Julian bream had elements of this in his playing, so you can do it the other way.)

As a guitar teacher it would be as inappropriate of me to teach a student to play djangos music with a classical left hand technique as it would be to teach Villa Lobos with djangos left hand (I'll leave aside that modem classical right hand technique is incorrect for baroque and Renaissance repertoire according to early guitar specialists.) but not everyone can get their thumb over to grab the authentic G6/9 it's true....

In the case of the thumb over the top technique stretches are difficult. Luckily most of the standard jazz grips (that amusingly come to us through GVE) are manageable with thumb over.

The use of what I sometimes like to call 'wanky New York voicings' does require a stretch friendly technique. Like I say, why learn only one way?

Apologies for the long post anyway, I do think there's a lot to be learned from different players approaches. something isn't necessarily unhealthy just because it isn't the way one was taught.

[Cunamara]

You have to listen to GVE 's recordings and watch the videos on YouTube to see what the value of his technique can be. He could improvise chordal arrangements of songs at the drop of a hat due to his mastery of the mechanics.

[larryb]

You have to listen to GVE 's recordings and watch the videos on YouTube to see what the value of his technique can be. He could improvise chordal arrangements of songs at the drop of a hat due to his mastery of the mechanics.

It does seem to come together in the etude at the end, and in his instructions for developing our own pieces, but it will take years to get to that etude. So, there's a lot of faith involved in this. Just wish he had put in suggestions along the way for applications rather than waiting to the end. But I guess maybe that's the learner's job to figure out.

[Toddep]

You have to listen to GVE 's recordings and watch the videos on YouTube to see what the value of his technique can be. He could improvise chordal arrangements of songs at the drop of a hat due to his mastery of the mechanics.

Yup!

[monk]

You have to listen to GVE 's recordings and watch the videos on YouTube to see what the value of his technique can be. He could improvise chordal arrangements of songs at the drop of a hat due to his mastery of the mechanics.

Not just his mastery of the mechanics but also his mastery of the tunes.

Van Eps knew the harmonies and melodies of those tunes inside-out and upside-down. That's an advantage that GVE had as well as folks like Ted Greene, Alan Reuss, Bucky Pizzarelli, Joe Pass, Howard Alden and Martin Taylor. Those guys played those Great American Songbook tunes all of their lives.

The ability to play on-the-spot arrangements like Van Eps and Pass requires a deep intimacy with the music.

[ronjazz]

There is no reason to wait another minute before starting to work on the etude at the end of the Van Eps Method book. He also published a book of solos that are well worth exploring. One can keep on working the exercises while also learning the more musically-complete solos in the separate book or the Etude at the end of the method book.

The important back story of the method book is that he found out that a student was going to publish a Van Eps book, and decided to write and publish one before the student could. It is, at best, an introduction to his philosophy of technique and voice-leading, which is more thoroughly explored in the Harmonic Mechanisms series.

I have owned these books for many years, and work in them sporadically, especially since I took up 7-string. However, I must say that I feel they are for very serious players who have an interest in mastering the diatonic aspects of chordal guitar-playing. If you are a part-time player or a hobbyist, it seems that the depth of the GVE philosophy can only be frustrating. Without devoting several hours daily to his works, one can only skim the surface. I would say that working in the first method book on a regular basis is good for technique and also good ear-training, but it's not a secret key to anything.

[larryb]

However, I must say that I feel they are for very serious players who have an interest in mastering the diatonic aspects of chordal guitar-playing. If you are a part-time player or a hobbyist, it seems that the depth of the GVE philosophy can only be frustrating. Without devoting several hours daily to his works, one can only skim the surface. I would say that working in the first method book on a regular basis is good for technique and also good ear-training, but it's not a secret key to anything.

Well, I'm not a pro, but I'm a serious hobbyist, meaning I get in around 3 to 4 hours a day of practice. But that includes practicing a variety of things, so it's hard to get more than an hour of GVE time in. But I do appreciate what you said and your advice.

[monk]

My admiration of George Van Eps knows no bounds. I have worked in GVE's books for many years and have never failed to find examples that give me ideas to develop for my own playing.

Will the Van Eps books teach one to play chord melody and chord solos? Probably not, if one doesn't have some basic concept of what chord melody is.

Will the Van Eps books improve and develop one's facility at playing the things necessary for good chord melody and learning to solve the myriad problems inherent in playing good chord melody? ABSOLUTELY! And that is what the books are about.

George Van Eps spent his entire life devoted to playing guitar in the chord melody style. His inspirations were pianists and arrangers. His books are his journals of how he solved the problems that arise when trying to play "Lap Piano".

I consider myself lucky to have seen GVE play live when I lived in Los Angeles in the early 1980s. When he performed the audience was a Who's Who of LA players. I could look around the room and see the likes of Ron Eschete and Howard Roberts focused on Van Eps' as raptly as teenagers at a rock concert. At this point in time, it is difficult to describe how much great musicians of all stripes (not just guitarists) respected him. He was a Giant and a true genius. We are extremely lucky that he chose to share his personal discoveries with us.

Every time I go back GVE's books, I learn something new and usable. I will continue to return to these books (and his recordings) until I close my guitar case for the last time.

[larryb]

Will the Van Eps books teach one to play chord melody and chord solos? Probably not, if one doesn't have some basic concept of what chord melody is.

Will the Van Eps books improve and develop one's facility at playing the things necessary for good chord melody and learning to solve the myriad problems inherent in playing good chord melody? ABSOLUTELY! And there is what the books are about.

Well, I have been studying chord melody for a few years, muddling my way through, mostly with drop 2 voicings and more recently incorporating shell chords, so I have at least a rudimentary knowledge of it. I'm sticking with the GVE. As you suggest, I'm not expecting it to be the magic bullet, but just one more thing to help me progress.

[BertScrogshaw]

choo choo!..plus he planed his own fretboards and fretted his own guitars…cobbled together his 7 string pup!!..from a family of watchmakers and musicians!!..perfect!!

and nothing but good to say about epi founder…epi stathopoloulo…who should have a larger footnote in the history of archtops..delivered van eps the 7 string van eps designed (in his mind) in 7 weeks!!..van eps loved epi and epiphone guitars!

Attachment 23923

cheers

ps- and dig who wrote that article in pic..barry galbraith!..no slouch himself

pps- & van eps designed and handmade those string dampers..you see pics of all the heavies with them..jim hall, kessel etc etc

Is it a string damper.....or an early capo used to shorten the guitars scalelength?

[kenbennett]

There is a book about the jazz guitarists (that somebody loaned me and I either passed it along to someone else or gave it back or it's around here somewhere) that says of Van Epps (I think it was him) that you could take his guitar and change any string by a half-step and he could still play his repertoire.

Has anyone ever heard that before?

If it's true, then it represents facility that... I'm not sure you can teach that kind of stuff.

[monk]

Is it a string damper.....or an early capo used to shorten the guitars scalelength?

It's a string dampener. As far as early goes, capos have been around since the mid-1600s.

[monk]

There is a book about the jazz guitarists (that somebody loaned me and I either passed it along to someone else or gave it back or it's around here somewhere) that says of Van Epps (I think it was him) that you could take his guitar and change any string by a half-step and he could still play his repertoire.

Has anyone ever heard that before?

If it's true, then it represents facility that... I'm not sure you can teach that kind of stuff.

I believe that story is in the article on Acoustic Chordal Guitarists that Richard Lieberson wrote for James Sallis' book Jazz Guitar.

[kenbennett]

I believe that story is in the article on Acoustic Chordal Guitarists that Richard Lieberson wrote for James Sallis' book Jazz Guitar.

Thanks monk. That's it. I recognize the cover.