Cultivating a Jazz Guitar Tone

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

The Zoller is bright and my guitar is bright. Once again, under Hep's guidance, I am finally unlocking the brightness of the guitar. When I play louder, I roll off the treble just a wee bit. Someone on this thread recommended practicing with the amp all the way treble to practice controling the tone under these settings. I am gonna try that today. I love that Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Howard Alden tone. Johnny Smith is also bright and a little twangy (although his tone is ridiculously bell like as well. It's an odd but lovely. It's all about how you control the string with your fretting hand. You REALLY gotta worried about string noise, but the brighter sound cuts tthrough the mix so much easier. Therefore, I don't have to play as loud (I hate playing loud).

Yes, I too have started to r*ll *ff. When I got the pickup installed on my guitar (a Loar LH600) I didn't put a tone control in. Now I feel a bit silly.

Anyway, I have a band that insists I play that guitar, so I'll be using the Zoller/AER setup. I will also try use it with the PRRI, which does sound good after a treble cut from the amp. I might send some audio files if you like....

Interesting idea re: the treble. The old school stuff is pretty trebly, though. With the band I mentioned they want something halfway between an Modern Archtop tone and a Selmer-Macaferri. The Loar covers that angle very nicely.

For super trebly - almost surf tone - jazz, I always think Mary Osborne...

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Add that to playing Pro Steel D'addario's (13/12 hybrid set) and the guitar can be bright like a freaking sun on a clear day. But I am really starting to love that sound.

Why not nickels? They would be darker sounding, but AFAIK Nickels are more vintage. That might be nonsense though :-)

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'm figuring out more and more that all the truly personal aspects of tone come from the hands, particularly how the note is fretted, if any vibrato is applied (don't think jazz guitar players use vibrato? Wrong!) And how the note is struck. And the most important thing in developing a personal tone is consistency.

I'm not a great player, but i do pride myself in my ability to not let gear play me...aand because of that, i can sound good and "like me" with a tele and a lunchbox, a semi hollow and a princeton, or an archtop and a polytone.

A lovely slow vibrato... Modern players seem conditioned out of it, but I noticed Mr Bernstein has a lovely jazz vibrato, as does Jim Mullen.

I hear what you are saying. It's good to mix it up play different guitars and amps, that way you don't get too precious.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2015, 11:21 AM

Oh, that reminds Jim Mullen's set up for years - an Aria Pro laminate archtop (cheap!) straight into an G-K bass amp.

Now he plays an AER Compact 60. The sound is identical. And so warm. If you didn't better you'd swear it was an L5 through a vintage Twin, right? :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 09-07-2015, 09:40 PM

If anybody can play one of those god awful compact 60's and make me think ot's a twin, they are truly amazing.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:44 PM

The AER 60?

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Why not nickels? They would be darker sounding, but AFAIK Nickels are more vintage. That might be nonsense though :-)

I tried nickles and they didn't "do it" for me. Pro Steels. If I go bright, I gotta take it as far as I can. The gemstone mellows it out a bit already. Listen to the last sound file I sent ya (all the bass is cut from the guitar and it's mostly treble) Lemme know what ya think. I titled it "Bright Guitar, Stupid Guitar Player"

**mr. beaumont** · 09-07-2015, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

The AER 60?

Yes. Good for acoustic guitars...archtop with a magnetic pickup? Awful. Sounds like the amp has a cold. No low end whatsoever.

**Irez87** · 09-07-2015, 09:57 PM

Amp has a cold

I get it. Sounded great with my Eastman. I play out of a DV 12 and it is dark, but I roll off the bass and mids. It's funny, because before Hep hep'ed me to playing with more treble, it sounded like my amp was in a small box that was packed with pillows.

**gggomez** · 09-07-2015, 11:08 PM

Help to Jive I watched an interview recently with Wes Montgomery on youtube where he talks about practicing acoustically. He was embarrassed when he plugged in, he could not believe how noisy he was so he therefore started practicing only plugged into an amp.

Another factor is what part of the pick do you use. Pointy end, fat end, side corner. The later I find is a the best of all worlds. The crisp feel of the pointy end and the fat sound of the round end. I find the differences in the three substantial (I am sure the most listeners would not discern any difference).

**christianm77** · 09-08-2015, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If anybody can play one of those god awful compact 60's and make me think ot's a twin, they are truly amazing.

Jim Mullen is truly amazing. He is a magician on the guitar.

And I agree with you. I got so sick of using my AER for electric guitar I bought a Fender amp. But I'm no Jim Mullen ;-)

EDIT: to be honest, I am coming up against some hard limits with the AER Alpha. It's great for low volume and always sounds fantastic with flat top guitars, but for Maccaferris it's a bit 'saggy'. My GJ guitar always sounds better straight into a PA, so I'm thinking of getting a small powered PA speaker and using that for the guitar. I think it needs that immediate, dry sound and the AER seems to compress things a bit.

The Compact 60 is a definitely a better choice, but it is also a fair bit heavier... And £££....

**christianm77** · 09-08-2015, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by gggomez

Help to Jive I watched an interview recently with Wes Montgomery on youtube where he talks about practicing acoustically. He was embarrassed when he plugged in, he could not believe how noisy he was so he therefore started practicing only plugged into an amp.

Another factor is what part of the pick do you use. Pointy end, fat end, side corner. The later I find is a the best of all worlds. The crisp feel of the pointy end and the fat sound of the round end. I find the differences in the three substantial (I am sure the most listeners would not discern any difference).

I've found this. Open strings ringing all over the place, string squeak.

**ronjazz** · 10-04-2015, 12:22 PM

D'Addario makes a "ground wound" that ameliorates the finger squeaks a bit, but still sounds like a round-wound. They also last for decades, it seems. Worth a try.

Tone, in the final analysis, is not "a tone", it is combination of factors, and should also have a range of color, as classical guitarists demonstrate.

**citizenk74** · 10-04-2015, 08:26 PM

+1 for the D'A ground wounds. Sound great, inherently less squeak-prone, long lasting; though in the end the player must hold themselves responsible for practicing proper technique. It's only taken me about 4 decades to reign it in. A little bit. I do keep trying.
I also agree on the use of the term "tone". I think "timbre" expresses the concept better, encompassing not just t,m,b balance but also the further nuances of attack, decay; use of vibrato - onset, speed, duration; and other factors in note production, not the least of which is intentional variation (as distinct from sub-par technique).

**Irez87** · 10-04-2015, 09:10 PM

Sounds good to me. As long as there is deliberate and focused attention to the sound coming out of the instrument, it is all good to me.

I'll have to check out ground wounds as I love D'Addario ProSteel round wound strings. They seem to play with the most brilliant highs and balanced lows. They are lively as all heck

But they do squeakity squack ... I try to be careful with my shifts to compensate