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Rob MacKillop over here at the forum has the best tone I've heard of jazz players still alive today. I am sure it has to do with his extensive studies in classical guitar. Just a thought, when studying technique.
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09-01-2015 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Irez87
My point with the video was just to introduce the idea of using a reststroke which I don't hear a lot of people mentioning. A point which I found on my own and felt it important to share. Yes obviously the question of tone should be something that everyone works on. Just felt that it was better left explored in another video. Plus it's such a personal thing. I did a masters in classical guitar as well and can definitely attest to the fact that tone is in the fingers so much more so than in the guitar or the amp. Just didn't feel the need to discuss it here
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Cool. I am jealous of those here that studied classical seriously here. I was more directing the criticism at videos like Jimmy Bruno's The Art of Picking and such. In one particular arpeggio study, he goes up triads and ends on a high G and the sound of the note is flubbed and choked off. Same thing in a lot of metal videos.
I added all your technique videos to my favs list on youtube. Great stuff there.
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If my post sounded directed at your videos, that's not cool. I apologize for venting on tone when you took the time to post great technique videos for free on youtube.
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I have seen many of the available instructional videos and Youtube videos on sweep picking. Your technique of incorporating the rest stroke is interesting. Did you have trouble overcoming the drag that the rest not can cause as you ascend and descend at speed? I hope to one day be able to sweep up and down playing chords. It reminds me of some of the sounds I have heard Sax player Henderson use (as on his recording of Inner Urge). Originally Posted by petestorz
I just worked my way up to 3 strings and its starting to get exciting.
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haha no worries at all! You make an interesting point about tone. When you're a classical guitarist you spend so much time finding the right shape to your nails and the right angle of the wrist that works for you. Electric players will spend the same amount of time on what pick works well for them and what angle to use etc...
When I finished my degree I was a lot like you and always after that perfect warm bell like tone and never flubbing a note. Then in the real world I discovered all kinds of artists like Django, Jimi Hendrix, John McLaughlin... All of these guys got amazing tone yet flubbed a lot of notes and I started to be a lot more open to ¨the accident¨.
Anyone here ever see the episode of in the actors studio with Christopher Walken? He was describing an acting class he had where he was doing a scene and someone dropped a big box of dishes backstage and everyone in the audience and onstage jumped except for Walken. Afterwards his teacher chastised him for not jumping. ¨You can't ignore life!¨ Is what he said and I never forgot that.
Anyway, my moto the past few years has been to spend more time in the moment and less trying to make everything ¨classical perfect¨. But that is everyone's voyage isn't it? Everyone has a different threshold for how perfect or how fast or how beautiful they want their tone to be.
Thanks for liking the vid
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
hmm not quite sure I know what you mean by drag. I think you might get something similar to drag if you were going at slower speeds but when you're actually at tempo the pick should be essentially halfway between a strum and just letting the pick fall. I find it identical to the way I (and I'm assuming most people) play house of the rising sun.
Sweeping is something that I faked for years and I think for me it helped because for years when I faked it I knew I was faking it so I was pretty relaxed with it. After I learned the reststroke idea it was pretty easy to just incoporate it into my playing. I think the hardest thing is really synchronising the two hands. Like I say in the video: each hand by itself is quite easy when you think about it. It's just syncing both hands up to these ridiculous tempos we do :P
Maybe another point to think of also is the fact that these are exercises and not (real) chords. Many of the chord shapes that people sweep are fairly awkward in the left hand so it's something that's worth while practicing in isolation and without the right hand at all
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Tone is personal, but I only had one teacher really make me aware of tone... James Chirillo. He played me some Jack Peterson (?) and the tone was incredibly bell like. Then he had me go through Segovia scales and Johnny Smith arpreggios, still use them to this day.
For horn players, it is immediately recognizable to tell the difference. I can tell you Oliver Nelson from Ben Webster from Coleman Hawkins to Lester Young in one note. I can't do that with most guitar players who play clean these days. I mean... look at George Barnes to Johnny Smith to Jim Raney to Jim Hall to Pat Metheny (not a fan of his tone, but love his ideas). Those guys you can hear a difference, but not many contemporary guitarists who play clean these days.
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Sorry this is on the sweep thread, but it is within the same dialogue on technique (IMO)
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Originally Posted by Irez87
ya was thinking this discussion could probably use it's own thread
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Done! Please add to it (I would appreciate it)
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I am very opinionated on this Subject but
Sweep picking except by a very few players
does not seem to be as articulate as alternate picking especially at medium tempos.
And at fast tempos it sounds kind of smeared except by a few Players and players are starting to believe it is the only way to play certain passages.
Economy Picking especially is not needed if you get good with alternate picking.
And if you get extremely good at alternate picking I don't think you need to sweep either.
You are supposed to be improvising not mapping out unique picking schemes for each phrase.
If it's easy for you or works well , fine ,but if it feels too complicated to quote Einstein "f... it"
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Irez87 has a nice thread on the "smeared" notes that often characterize sweep picking or raking. You might want to check it out. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Personally, I have no problem with the sound as long as the guitarist can get some separation in the notes. I like the effect and the different sound it gives.
To each his/her own, of course.
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Yeah. I'm an alternate picker. I use some legato hammers and pulls. But I don't like the sound of sweep and as I've said economy just doesn't make good sense to me. I know there are great players who can make anything sound great. And that's good. But direction has everything to do with phrasing.
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I think more important than sweep picking or alternate picking is the concept of optimal hand position. Whether you anchor, use your wrist, forearm, or elbow, you need to be totally aware of the mechanics of your movement. Not so much to "plan out your lines" but more so to "plan out your ability to play for the rest of your life" and not end up like many guitarists (many of which appear on Troy Grady's show
) who totally fudged up their arms and hands because they were not paying attention to the mechanics of their hands.
Why am I annoyed by all of this... Well here is my rant (thank you, Henry, for giving legitimacy to the rant, it is important to be able to do this )
I messed up my arm and now I have to take a break from playing my lovely lovely guitar. How did this happen? I wasn't playing attention to the mechanics and mechanism of my hand, forearm, and arm.
No, I am not talking about Troy Grady's "picking mechanics"... Not at all! I am talking about the mechanics of how the tendons in your fingers, forearm, and arm respond to your particular picking technique. Your muscles as well.
My inference for my own mistake: to maintain an upward pick slant, I locked my thumb and pushed down too hard on my index finger. The tension created from my upward pick slant traveled up my arm. Since I rotate from my forearm (which I still plan on using after my arm heals) that tightened tendon was rubbing up against my forearm bone (what is the official name?)
I made an appointment with a physical therapist that specializes with musicians. I will share everything he tells me here. Why? Because you don't want to end up like Steve Morse (Troy, you have to be careful and explain the history of some of your guests) and get surgery on my arm because of poor technique.
My arm hurts, so it was hard to type this all. Please take everything I said into consideration
Last edited by Irez87; 09-22-2015 at 05:45 AM.
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Well, I only have a problem when an advanced or well known Player says the ONLY way to play
a certain passage is using "sweep" or especially "economy" picking.
I think beginning and intermediate Players may be mislead into thinking they HAVE to use all these picking techniques to play across the strings arpeggiate etc.
I even see people confusing playing an Arpeggio with "sweeping" i.e. they think I must be "sweeping" if I play across the strings.
So...there is definitely more than one way to do these passages.
I am using a vertical style of improvising frequently playing across the strings like 30 to 70% of the time and I don't use sweep picking so again if you like it or enjoy it or have fun with it - sweep and economy pick all you want- but you can also do it with alternate picking.
Pick whatever technique you like.Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-25-2015 at 11:54 PM.
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nothing is wrong with sweep picking or economy picking. It's like saying something is wrong with rest strokes or pick and fingers. It's part of the guitar vocabulary. It's like saying, "I don't like vowels". Or "I don't like punctuation".
And in order to phrase certain things like a horn player, sweeping is essential - if you care about such things. Any player who saying you should *ONLY* do things one way is narrow mindedLast edited by jzucker; 09-22-2015 at 01:41 PM.
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Exactly- I am not actually a "Jazz" Player -I come from the Steely Dan/ R&B Rhythmic Fusion thing(if I had to label it) but if you listen to the lines I play- they are shapes and chords and I suppose I am "running changes" but not ll-V-I , or ii-V-i s usually - so some of it is "Horn -like" etc. and I just use alternate picking playing across the strings. Originally Posted by jzucker
One thing that I do which is very "hornlike"
is triplets ( and I guess sextuplets) across three strings ( triads ) which especially at faster tempos sounds like modern Sax Players.
And it works with no distortion or even on acoustic guitar.
So people who use 3 different techniques to play a line " alternate pick here, then economy pick to play the adjacent string, then sweep pick across the arpeggiated Triad, then back to alternate picking ".
Fine. If you like it. If you enjoy it. If it works .
And if it works to where you can use it onstage or even jamming with friends- great.
BUT that same line can be done with alternate picking also at various tempos .
And much simpler especially if you are improvising.
And this is 2015 - you won't be able to sweep as rhythmically or as fast as some one who can AAP across the strings.
And then everyone will say I'm sweeping anyway...lol.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-09-2016 at 03:42 AM.
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I'm with zucker on this one (love the barney kessel in your handle shot)
Even Mr. Alternate Picker himself, Johnny Smith, talks about using sweeps for certain articulations. It all comes down to the sound you want. Alternate picking gives more definition, but it isn't as fast as sweeping (I am talking about the sound from note to note, it is purposely clipped. And the motion is simpler. Yes, I know you can get your alternate picking as fast as sweeping, but it will still be a different sound).
Once my elbow heals up more I want to go back to JS's extended arpeggios and play them alternate picking style. It's all in the sound. Speaking of picking, does anyone know of any good material for cross picking. Now those cross pickers, wheeeeowwww-eeeee, they can pick and mean pick!Last edited by Irez87; 09-27-2015 at 12:06 PM.
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PRAISE ODIN!!! I run into so many players who are uptight about this kind of stuff. I am definitely from the camp of open mindedness because the possibilities are endless. Ex. If I want to sweep pick, thumb slap, and then use an empty glass bottle against the strings, I'm probably gonna do it. Haha Originally Posted by jzucker
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Lol. Slap that Guitar ! Originally Posted by b_ryceeeee
I remember as a kid there were a lot of really really good guitar players in my area ( and I was NOT one of them - grrr) and one guy used to play onstage with a great Top 40 Band "Little Red Rooster" by Rolling Stones perfectly( the slide Guitar parts) - with a metal Zippo Lighter!
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