Dialing in the right amount of tone from the amp and the guitar

**Irez87** · 07-31-2015, 03:07 PM

After cringing at the amount of mud I hear on recordings when I comp, I have started to address my tone. I usually play on the darker side, but I am now getting into playing with more treble. It lets the notes breath a little bit, especially with chording.

My question is this, do those of you that play with a more mid range sound notice that it makes mistakes even more audible. I hear more string noise, and more pick noise (I play with a gemstone pick, sounds great acoustically) when I dial in the treble.

I also heard that playing with more treble cuts better when the band gets loud. However, I do miss that nice thick sound on the high e and b strings when I add a bunch of treble. Thoughts?

**Cunamara** · 07-31-2015, 04:04 PM

With a dark tone I find it best to stay off the low E and A strings when playing chords. With a brighter tone I can use more of the instrument. I can use a darker tone with guitars that have more "thunk" on the wound strings, to borrow from another thread.

I have noticed that so-called dark tones like Jim Hall's are much brighter than I had thought. Just rolling the treble off doesn't give a Jim Hall tone. I have a John Stowell CD that has so much treble rolled off on some tunes that it sounds like he's underwater.

our ears pickup the midrange and upper midrange most strongly, so as our tone brightens we become more audible and the mistakes likewise become more audible. As your tone brightens the thickness should remain as treble is being added but the mid and lows are not being cut. The trick is to find the balance point for you in the contexts in which you play. Your tone on the bandstand will probably need to be brighter than your tone in your living room.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-31-2015, 07:34 PM

I purposely own amps with only bass and treble controls, no midrange. I turn the volume and tone knobs on my amp and guitar back and forth until they sound the way I want. My friend Dinty does the same thing. It can really make a big difference.

**Irez87** · 07-31-2015, 07:46 PM

I've found that dialing in is really hard on a Fender tube. Easier on my DV Mark Jazz, although I have to account for it's bassy sound and dial back the bass to accomodate. My guitar sounds horrible through a JC-120.

I have an Eastman 803 with a set in AZ SH 48 Humbucker, a bone/ ebony bridge, and play with a gemstone pick (it darkens the tone as well). Thought the Shadow pup could only do dark well, but I was surprised. What Cunamara said is interesting, the whole bit of the stage sounding different then the living room.

**ecj** · 07-31-2015, 10:12 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that it's way easier to dial in tone with a brighter sound if your acoustic sound is already pretty much the way you want it.

Dialing in tone on a guitar with 0.11s is a totally different experience than doing the same with 0.14s. The thickness of the strings creates thickness of tone that allows for brighter settings.

**Irez87** · 07-31-2015, 10:28 PM

I was thinking of swapping out the .13 on my high e for a .14. I already have a mixed set of 12s with 13s for the G B and E strings. Do you think that would add too much tension on the neck? I might get a single from D'addario.

I think it's like 30 pounds for the .14 tension wise. I have my guitar strung with round wounds, because I love how it speaks acoustically on my guitar. My archie is naturally bright, the gemstone pick dulls it a little and adds depth (acoustically).

**Hep To The Jive** · 08-01-2015, 02:28 AM

I find that dark tone doesnt really work for my style. I avoid any guitars with hot humbucker pickups, because I feel its really easy to fall into muddy tone with those. Also, with bright pickups I can comp using low strings and not sound too bassy. For some reason comping on the frirst four strings never sounded good to my ears. I reserve them for chord solos. Also I can always use tone control to cut extra treble if needed, depending on the amp im using.

**Irez87** · 08-01-2015, 02:50 AM

We'll see on Sunday, dude! Ordered a high e .14 gauge (I have a 12/13 mixed set on), but I dunno. Hell it was a dollar for a single string, so I dunno. I'll see what my tech says.

**KirkP** · 08-01-2015, 02:56 AM

With a Fender-style tone stack, I like to start with the bass and treble at zero which is pretty close to a flat frequency response), then bring bass and treble up just enough to suit my ear. I set the mid control pretty high, but it hardly matters since it acts like a volume control at those settings. With this approach I feel I end up with a punchy, muscular tone but no distracting finger noises, etc.

**pubylakeg** · 08-09-2015, 04:30 AM

It can be quite difficult to find one's ideal tone, due to the number of variables in the guitar/amp combination. These include such factors as pick type, string alloy/winding type, pickup type/height, guitar body width/depth, speaker type/size etc.

The fact that many of us use hollow body guitars equipped with h/buckers on the neck p/up setting can mean things getting a little muddy sometimes.

I've never actually heard an Eastman guitar in the flesh, but I have heard people voice the opinion that they tend towards a bright sound.

I think most Jazz players, tend to back off the guitar volume control, to a point about 7/10, with the tone control wide open, and start to tweak from there. In general you'll hear the tone change as you turn the volume control up towards full, from that point, so many players start to back off the tone as the volume control approaches full on.

In addition, I find it helpful to totally ignore any preconception of where you think an amp's tone controls should be set.. Let your ears be the sole judge of this, so if that means turning the amp's bass control to zero, do it. Try comparing your tone with a recording of a player whose tone you might wish to emulate. The results can be surprising.

**Irez87** · 08-09-2015, 06:21 AM

Thanks for all of the advice. I am closer to the tone I want. Surprisingly, my AZ Shadow PUPs are brighter then I thought (which is great, I have more room to play with the tone). I have been trying to bring my amp to all playing situations (Hep can attest to that), but sometimes it's not possible. Keep the advice coming!

**Cunamara** · 08-15-2015, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

One thing to keep in mind is that it's way easier to dial in tone with a brighter sound if your acoustic sound is already pretty much the way you want it.

Dialing in tone on a guitar with 0.11s is a totally different experience than doing the same with 0.14s. The thickness of the strings creates thickness of tone that allows for brighter settings.

That's interesting, I hadn't thought specifically about the effects of string gauge on how bright the tone can be while still sounding like jazz guitar. I've changed back and forth from 12s to 11s and there was some difference; I found I preferred the sound of 12s. I have TI 13s on my carvetop guitar currently and have been liking the fatter trebles which seem to balance better against the bass strings.

I've never used 14s, but Pete Bernstein does and he is able to have a bright and fat tone- much fatter than many people who play with a bright sound.

**Irez87** · 08-15-2015, 12:50 PM

be sure your neck can handle those 5 extra pounds of tension before you go experimenting. I really like the sound of a hybrid set. Also, Pete B uses D'addario from what I remember. So does Howard Alden, that's for sure. I use Pro Steels, the brightest you can get. Actually speaks really well acoustically and I am beginning to dial in the treble for that set more and more. It cuts through the band and speaks better down low, especially when trying those Horace Silver comping figures.

**Irez87** · 08-15-2015, 12:55 PM

Actually, Peter plays John Pearse. Never could find that set. Be careful of the .14. My set is:

High e .13
B .17
G .26w
D .32
A .42
E .52

**Irez87** · 08-15-2015, 01:00 PM

the .26w on the G may sound weird, but I like playing partial chords off of the D and G strings. The high tension on the G helps bring out those chords. It felt odd doing single lines with it, but I got used to it and now is sounds right to me.

**christianm77** · 08-18-2015, 09:38 AM

For me, treble is golden. While a rolled off sound can sound good in isolation, the instrument needs some top end to speak in an band.

Make sure you pick over the neck pickup. This will give you the warmest sound. Too near the bridge and you will sound 'twangy.' Make sure that you angle the pick contact with the string by a small amount so there is a smooth release of the string as it is struck. In this way you can minimise the 'clickiness' and 'twanginess' of guitar notes.

I have started playing a Telecaster with gauge .11 roundwound strings. For this, I find a small amount of roll off necessary for a good jazz tone (a point or two.)

This is best done on the amp though, as I believe guitar tone pots can affect the sound adversely. Certainly, my guitars seem to sound best when the tone is wide open.

Heavier strings and flatwounds etc can also help as discussed above.

EDIT: my current aim is to work out exactly how Bill Frisell is able to play a Tele with the bridge p'up selected (which sounds best for chimey clustery chords) but also manages to remove all of the twangy front end from his single notes. Advice very welcome.... :-)

**christianm77** · 08-18-2015, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Thanks for all of the advice. I am closer to the tone I want. Surprisingly, my AZ Shadow PUPs are brighter then I thought (which is great, I have more room to play with the tone). I have been trying to bring my amp to all playing situations (Hep can attest to that), but sometimes it's not possible. Keep the advice coming!

I have an AZ Zoller on one of my guitars and have found the same thing. I do find that guitar a bit twangy - more Barney Kessell than Jim Hall.

**christianm77** · 08-18-2015, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

That's interesting, I hadn't thought specifically about the effects of string gauge on how bright the tone can be while still sounding like jazz guitar. I've changed back and forth from 12s to 11s and there was some difference; I found I preferred the sound of 12s. I have TI 13s on my carvetop guitar currently and have been liking the fatter trebles which seem to balance better against the bass strings.

I've never used 14s, but Pete Bernstein does and he is able to have a bright and fat tone- much fatter than many people who play with a bright sound.

TI .14's are great - heavy top, light bottom. I have heard Peter B describe his set up as being like this even if he doesn't use TI's.... Maybe he mixes and matches sets?

Surprisingly easy to play... That said I find the TI roundwounds go dull quicker than D'addarios.

I have gone up to a .15 top. Not sure if it's necessary.... Sounded good though!