The Secret to Playing at Fast Tempos (LJS)

**MarkRhodes** · 07-21-2015, 10:48 AM

Another interesting blog post from the Learn Jazz Standards site

Learn Jazz Standards | The Secret To Playing At Fast Tempos

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 05:09 PM

I would go further and think in 4 bar phrases. Get into the habit of tapping your foot every four measures (not quarter notes!) . Sounds hard, but at 200 plus it is easier because the measures zip by. Try not to count, but hear the space (best on a hard wood floor with dress shoes, he he) between the taps. Get a drum machine that can do this for you before you try taping your foot

**mrcee** · 07-21-2015, 05:28 PM

Many great guitarists/teachers stress practicing really slow as the key to learning to play fast.
I'm sure all of the experienced pro level players on this forum have heard that their whole lives
but for those that aren't it's good to keep in mind.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-21-2015, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

I would go further and think in 4 bar phrases. Get into the habit of tapping your foot every four measures (not quarter notes!) . Sounds hard, but at 200 plus it is easier because the measures zip by. Try not to count, but hear the space (best on a hard wood floor with dress shoes, he he) between the taps. Get a drum machine that can do this for you before you try taping your foot

That's a new one on me, tapping every four measures. Thanks! I'll see what I can do with that.

**ecj** · 07-21-2015, 05:54 PM

I would be really really careful about takin advice from people who haven't demonstrated their ability to do what they are teaching you to do.

Stopped reading when he admitted that he's not great at fast tempos.

I want to listen to the guy who sucked at fast tempos then figured it out, not the guy who still can't do it.

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 06:00 PM

I am by no means an accomplished or technical guitarist, but to a point, the hurdle maybe how fast you can hear instead of how fast you can play. After talking to bass players, sax players, and trumpet players, playing the guitar seems easier (at least playing single notes). Sax players have to do all this thinking around air flow, tonguing, and then you get to the keys of the instrument-- you can't really look at your hands and the finger positions aren't as logical as piano or guitar.

The mechanics of picking can be difficult, but think of a trumpet player that has to create something with three buttons and an ear of gold... shesh. Therefore, to be a great guitarist, you have to hear and sing and figure out how you hear music. Use the relative "ease" of the instrument (after playing the bass, your whole body gets sore from playing one note) to access how you ear? Yep, I related playing fast to ear training. Everything has to be related to how you hear...

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 06:13 PM

I could post some of my playing on faster tempos, but I don't want to get defensive with someone who has respectable posts (I agree with a lot of your posts, ecj) . Right now, my ceiling is 200, but it isn't as musical as I want it to be (too many repeated ideas). Also working on getting rid of pick bounce (I play from the forearm and don't anchor). Just some thinking out loud after studying a whole slew of ear training. Sometimes this dedication (obsession) with ear training gets me into trouble.

I find the most difficulty playing fast in an actual band, where I have to deal with an amp. Amplified, the guitar feels harder to play for some reason, ideas, reasons?

**vintagelove** · 07-21-2015, 07:19 PM

I glanced at the article, I wouldn't put too much weight into his advise, especially since he says he can't play fast all to well.

The #1 thing IMO, is being able to really play the sh@t out of changes. You have to be able to get around the changes without having a second thought. This takes practice, lots and lots of practice. You need to understand them on the micro level (all the little ii v's), and also to be able to see the "bigger picture" of the changes (take the A of donna lee, it's I II ii V, stuff happens in between, but this is the big picture).

#2 Technique - If your technique, and more importantly understanding of how technique is applied isn't great, you will really struggle at higher tempos. BTW there is 1000 different right ways to do it, which brings us to my next point.

#3 Practicing fast - If you want to play fast, you have to practice fast, for years.

Other notes

I agree about how fast different people can hear. I truly think many folks brains just can't keep up with some tempos. In another thread Mark posted Jimmy Bruno burning on a tune. Several folks commented that was just guitar player nonsense. It absolutely wasn't. They just couldn't hear the phrases as fast as they were coming out. So if your listening to fast players and you don't hear it, you certainly won't be able to play it yourself. I am not sure how/if this can be improved. Would make a great study.

The gentleman above who mentioned sax doesn't understand the sax very well. They are extremely well set up for faster playing, far better than the guitar.

Bottom line, it always comes down to that magic answer that seems to fit 95% of music questions, PRACTICE MORE!!!

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 07:43 PM

Okay... tried to post an Mp3, didn't work and neither did the WMA. Wanted to share me noodling at 200 bpm, which is kinda fast, but not bop (260 to 300ish). Other ideas I really want to share as well, such as comping ideas. Honestly, can someone help me post?

Sorry about being didactic with ear training, but I do find it extremely important as you advance as a player, maybe more so than any other area of the craft. Technique is important, but without your ears... Jimmy Raney had to have some of his hearing at the very end.

And I got my picking up by working out of Jimmy's book. Watch Jimmy's videos as well, he constantly says "well, that's how I hear it". He even has ear training as part of his guitar course, right? (I never took the course).

The whole point of the post was about being musical when the tempo gets up there, and not playing bird lick # 5 here and bird lick # 6 all disconnected. My friend told me that transferring ideas from what you hear to the saxophone is harder, I could never get a note out of the saxophone (sounded like a dying cat).

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2015, 07:45 PM

The feel in half time thing works. Its not that it magically adds npm, but it teally adds the illusion of things slowing down. I'll post a video of i can...

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 07:52 PM

Youtube... maybe that's the ticket. Can you make it selective, so that only forum members see it? The comments on youtube are kinda... well, vile.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2015, 08:00 PM

Lol...i have very little fear of internet trolls

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 08:08 PM

Okay, Friday, when my guitar gets back I'll do it. Getting some RS Guitarworks pots in my guitar. Excited! But I don't appreciate being attacked... I'll cool off with the incessant ear training suggestions... for now.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2015, 08:10 PM

Lol...i thought you were suggesting i make the video! Iwould, though.

You can definitely set the privacy so that only those with a link can view it.

**Irez87** · 07-21-2015, 08:15 PM

Cool, will do. I want to post some ideas using the Big Metronome (from Bruce Arnold) to feel larger chunks of time. Also wanted to show my ongoing explorations in 2, 3, and 4 note comping.

**ecj** · 07-21-2015, 10:49 PM

I just really think that the whole "it's not physical" line of argument is just really bad advice. Most guitar player's problems are very physical in nature.

There's no magic frame of mind that's going to fix it for you. You have to practice carefully and slowly and be able to handle the skills needed.

Look at what guys like Reg are telling you. It's not to just "relax" or try to "hear better". It's all about getting better organized and comfortable on the instrument.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-21-2015, 11:01 PM

Well, yes and no.

If your tecnique is bad, ueah, then this doesn't help.

But if your technique is good, entering these situations in a relaxed fashion is a big deal.

Have you tried setting a metronome at say, 250...tapping every beat and playing...tapping 2 and 4...tapping 1 and 3? It's a huge difference.

Like i said, its not going to magically add speed. But it will greatly affect what you can do with the speed you have.

I dunno. Technique is great, but playing faster than you can really hear/ think is useless.

**vintagelove** · 07-22-2015, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, yes and no.

If your tecnique is bad, ueah, then this doesn't help.

But if your technique is good, entering these situations in a relaxed fashion is a big deal.

Have you tried setting a metronome at say, 250...tapping every beat and playing...tapping 2 and 4...tapping 1 and 3? It's a huge difference.

Like i said, its not going to magically add speed. But it will greatly affect what you can do with the speed you have.

I dunno. Technique is great, but playing faster than you can really hear/ think is useless.

I have heard (and I think briefly tried) the half time thing works.

However, for me, where I tap my foot doesn't effect the music I hear in my head naturally. I naturally always think down to the fastest subdivision I can play. Obviously what comes naturally is always what works best, however I may give that technique another go for variations in my phrasing. I think I recall it leading to a more legato feel.

that being said I would still bet the problem is the changes coming to fast that is most people's problem. After all, you don't have to PLAY fast over a fast tune, but you do have to THINK fast.

**ecj** · 07-22-2015, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, yes and no.

If your tecnique is bad, ueah, then this doesn't help.

But if your technique is good, entering these situations in a relaxed fashion is a big deal.

Have you tried setting a metronome at say, 250...tapping every beat and playing...tapping 2 and 4...tapping 1 and 3? It's a huge difference.

Like i said, its not going to magically add speed. But it will greatly affect what you can do with the speed you have.

I dunno. Technique is great, but playing faster than you can really hear/ think is useless.

No disagreement there, but you do have to have the technique, too. If you can't pick your licks in isolation at 250, no amount of relaxing is going to make it happen over a tune that fast.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-22-2015, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Youtube... maybe that's the ticket. Can you make it selective, so that only forum members see it? The comments on youtube are kinda... well, vile.

I think the only options are public and private. I know when you submit a YouTube clip to Jimmy Bruno at this workshop, there's an option that allows only JB to see (and not other members of the Workshop.)

That said, if you put a video on your channel and only post a link here, who else is going to see it anyway? I think you can disallow comments at YouTube...

**mr. beaumont** · 07-22-2015, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

No disagreement there, but you do have to have the technique, too. If you can't pick your licks in isolation at 250, no amount of relaxing is going to make it happen over a tune that fast.

I definitely agree. It's more of a "what can i do with the speed i have" kind of thing.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-22-2015, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

No disagreement there, but you do have to have the technique, too. If you can't pick your licks in isolation at 250, no amount of relaxing is going to make it happen over a tune that fast.

Technique is good. I think the author of the article assumes a certain level of technique on the part of readers. I mean, if you can't play at medium tempos it is no surprise that you can't play at faster ones. However, if you can handle medium up tunes, you already have technique. You may need to improve it. Let us not forget, Miles really struggled with the tempos Bird favored eventhough Miles had technique.

Another important thing is that playing fast tunes is not just a matter of playing the same licks you play on slow tunes, just faster.

Here is Wes's solo on "Billie's Bounce".

It's a good solo but it's not like he's playing all the licks he might play at 160, just faster. The use of space is different at fast tempos. (It's different in another way on very slow tunes too.)

Here is a link to Tony Greaves' blog, where he plays this solo on a Strat (along with the original recording) so you can see how it lays out on guitar. (There's a PDF link too.)
https://allegedartist.wordpress.com/...-fingerpickin/

**Stevebol** · 07-22-2015, 08:17 PM

If playing really fast is a secret I'm OK with keeping it a secret.
Can't we just do that?
I don't want to share my secrets of playing slow.

**Irez87** · 07-22-2015, 08:32 PM

Playing slow is also hard, doing it convincingly on a Ballad. Yea, the technique needs to be there, I will acknowledge that. For me, if I start thinking fast fast fast, you gotta play fast my man, then everything tenses up and I freeze. If I think slow and think of where my phrases should end, then I don't tense up and I can use the technique to actually play. Also, you hear things differently fast than slow. Nothing worse than getting your chops up only to freeze when someone calls Oleo a a bright clip.

**henryrobinett** · 07-22-2015, 08:45 PM

Ok. Good advice in the article. But the main things, from my perspective, is to PHRASE. I don't think you got into phrasing too much and that is the primary culprit, at least it was for me. And don't feel you have to jump in at playing all 8th notes at blistering speed. Start slower. No one will notice as you build up momentum and lock into the groove. The groove is the most important thing. Don't drag even a little. The best way I've found to do that is to PHRASE. Start with whole notes. Create a melodic footprint.

Note: Don't despair or even think about your right hand. That follows the left. My left won't follow my right and come up with anything interesting to play. Give the band something to dig into. If you know what you're playing you can play it.

Practice playing fast tunes very slowly. This is so you can learn to play the notes and phrase within the changes. When you feel comfortable at the tempo increase it to the point of just being uncomfortable. Work it there until you get it. Then increase the tempo until you can do it at THE tempo. It might take a while -- like months.

Undercut: Listen to fast solos. Imagine your fingers flying over the fretboard playing it, regardless of whether it's a horn player, pianist or guitarist. Also it doesn't matter whether the notes you're imagining are correct or not.

Undercut: Imagine you playing the solo AWAY from the guitar. Think phrasing.

Undercut: You'll have to develop good right hand technique. Deadly accurate time.

Undercut: You have to develop better left hand technique. Solid left hand strength. Timing should be in the LEFT which is trained to make the right follow. Not that you should be pressing hard. But for me playing fast depends on having a lot of strength in the left hand.

Relax. Breath. Listen. Any bit of doubt or breach in confidence might send you crumbing.