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By the way, I would recommend Jimmy Bruno's THE ART OF PICKING. I don't like his strictly elbow mechanic, but the exercises really address key problems in picking, such as inside and outside picking and arpeggio picking. I have a video up on the playing fast thread that shows my mechanic at 200bpm, but it is still a work in progress. I will report back on Monday to share what Bruce Arnold showed me.
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07-25-2015 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by EDS
Looks like most of the hallmarks of Benson Picking. Pick is on the pad of the index and slightly angled up. GB wouldn't have his thumb so far forward and would anchor his pinky.
But it's working great for you.
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Whoa, Jimmy does do the forearm rotation. I misinterpreted what he said in the book as don't move the wrist...
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Originally Posted by EDS
It looks great in the video, your relaxed, versatile, and making it sound good, which is the most important part.
I wouldnt worry about the particular slant, just try to understand the concepts in his videos, in other words where/why the "problems" arise. From the looks of it, you'll have no problem solving the "problems".
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I've noticed in the past week or two that I am playing much better. To test this, I have played things from old books that used to trouble me but no longer do.
Like the diminished run in Mickey Baker's Volume 1. (At the end of the technique studies for soloing.)
Or this long diminished pattern, which Carol Kaye has in her "Jazz Guitar" booklet: Bb G A F# G A Bb C, then repeat the pattern for each tone of the diminished chord: here, the chord tones are G Bb Db and E, or the second and fifth notes in each group of eight. Since the pattern contains eight notes and is played in eighths, the pattern lasts a full measure on each tone of the arpeggio. Play for nine measures and land on Db as the one of the tenth.
My playing is cleaner and more consistent. Yay!Last edited by MarkRhodes; 07-26-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by vintagelove
Thanks for the help vintagelove, lrez and philco! The reason I ask is that I'm also a guitar teacher (in addition to being an eternal student) of 10 years who never really considered many facets about picking, of which I'm duly ashamed. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm doing so I can, in turn, teach better.
Does anyone see what Troy Grady calls "string hopping"? I don't see it and since I alternate pick, it seems like there should be some stringhopping there.
I'd like to incorporate more economy picking into my playing - when I switched to alternate picking, it solved alot of problems that I had and gave me more power, but there's certain things you can do better with economy picking.
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Hey EDS
I like your playing, nice
You look pretty flat, and the angle changes with location and tempo... you adjust. your thumb looks really tight. The hand seems to freeze up as tempo and length of phrase increases... can't tell if it's just from left hand taking over and that tightness is result of... or just the temp.
Record yourself again and play something slower so you can double time sections of a phrase... uneven rhythmic picking with more arpeggio style... even if you just play arpeggio rhythmic pattern licks that change with harmony... and more string skips that require more pick movement when alternate picking... might be easier to see what type or how the angles change or not change etc when picking. Also see how or why you tighten up. I tend to get more relaxed and looser when playing faster or more complicated picking lines. Which was developed, so I could have a choice for articulations.
I mean... you can play, right. you sound like you can cover well. I tend to find most guitarist can play well enough when they know what their playing etc... they tend to have problems when they have to play what they don't know. So check out your picking playing through something new... you generally can see how you physically play etc... when your defaults take over.
But again as Vintage love said... you can already play and play well... so when you need to change or adjust pick etc... I don't believe you'll have a problem. Would dig hearing you play through some tunes... not for technique... just to hear the music etc...
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Hello! Originally Posted by EDS
i would say from watching it you are using little or no consistent pick slant. My suggestion would be to experiment with using an exaggerated (45 degree) pick slant, and make firm contact with the next string on each downstroke. Be aware of pulling the up strokes away from the guitar soundboard somewhat.
The impetus for your downstrokes should come from arm weight, while your up strokes should come from wrist rotation.
give this a go practicing slow for a bit (classical gypsy technique) for a bit and when you think you have the feel, experiment with dialling it back a bit.
you should be doing very little on downstrokes. Up strokes are the recovery stroke and require some muscle use. Everything else is arm weight.
about two way pick slanting I have no idea :-) not my vibe
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EDS, Originally Posted by EDS
The best place to look at that technique, starts at 13:03 in the Morse clip posted recently-- and yeah, I see virtually no particular 'hop' action in your playing at all. Alternate or not, it's not really something one 'should' or should not have.
That 'hop' motion is used most on occasion by Eric (Johnson) and really wouldn't jive well at the tempos you were playing your lines at. It can come in handy for other things, such as articulation variety, but as Troy mentions becomes pretty energy inefficient in comparison to the subtle slant variations available to employ at will now.
There is some subtle slant work being done in that clip imo, but at that angle it's simply still too difficult to tell if it has any particular meaningful application to what you were playing there-- really that neck camera mount he uses on those clips is what's needed for as in-depth analysis as possible-- but getting someone to steady point a camera w/zoom from a sort of side neck-down angle would likely help as well.
Nice playing!
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Reg, thank you for taking the time to write this- I don't hang around here alot but enougth to know how well you play and the level your experience and knowledge, so I truly appreciate that. Originally Posted by Reg
I will record something again with the suggestions you provided. One thing I have been working on is getting speed - basically out of necessity since I"ve been caught on the bandstand too many times lately where I can't hang at 300+. My wrist actually feels pretty normal at these tempos ( but I can tell tension manifests itself in other places, like my face) so I'm actually pretty pleased with that, but my picking style dictates alot of what I play at that tempo. My arcticulation is fairly monochromatic too but I don't suppose I can blame all that on my picking style.
Basically, playing across the strings (arpeggios or similar) is a big downfall for me though I can do it to an extent. If memory serves, when I've seen your technique, your right hand looks very smooth.
I also like the suggestion to play something new to see how my technique handles it - I just started on a Blue Mitchell solo, that might fit the bill but if not, I will look into other things.
Thanks for the suggestions - I tried what you said - while I can do it, its so foreign, I would need to quit playing for 6 months to overhaul my technique to do it. I find that a big slant makes descending lines really weird (since basically have to change strings after downstrokes) but I can feel the efficiency in picking with this method. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think I need to work with what I have and maybe incorporate some new things rather than drastically change - I actually did this once already (I went from doing all economy picking to all alternate) and it took about 2 years until it was "normal" again.
Thanks for the input! The Steve Morse video with the alterate-picked arpeggios is what got my interested again in this video series - Grady's explanation for it was very interesting so I was trying to see if I avoid the stringhopping as well. Even though I dont' see it, I don't have the best eye for that right now. Originally Posted by Zip09
I make mini string changing exercises for myself and I can tell I do some kind of subtle angling of the pick in these exercises (maybe "two-way slanting"?) but I don't know if that carries over to real-life playing yet. I agree its hard to tell 100% from that angle..
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Just had a lesson: food for thought (take it or leave it, just don't shoot it down as stupidity)
My teacher told me that all the movement comes from forearm rotation, and to keep the wrist relaxed and the elbow stationary. Any tension is a sign of a problem in technique, especially at faster tempos.
Definitely surprised me, but I know he's hip to what he's talking about. The guy played with Wayne Krantz, and Joe Lovano and the such.
He also said if you have a technique you've developed that doesn't generate tension (regardless of tempo), to stick with that. So not really a right or wrong, just a technique that allows you to be totally relaxed in any playing situation.
Food for thought.
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That is a good book. Lots of great MUSICAL exercises. (Stuff you might actually play in a tune.) Originally Posted by Irez87
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I uploaded another video. I feel like I'm pushing my luck asking you all to watch another, but if you don't mind, and see anything different from before, I welcome your insights. Originally Posted by Reg
I tried to get the camera angle better and emphasize more doubletime and more across string playing. let me emphasize that the playing has issues musically and doesn't really sound good in spots, but I was just trying to show my picking hand.
To me, it looks the same as before, but maybe I'm not seeing everything. What I'm doing is not true "benson" picking, right?
EDIT: one thing I'm wondering is if I am avoiding "string hopping" or bouncing from string to string, is it just because the pick travels a shallow arc? I'd like to know how to convey this to students, if it looks okay.
Is this the same as "normal" up and down wrist motion when picking? I guess I don't understand how rotating your arm is different? Originally Posted by Irez87
Last edited by EDS; 07-28-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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Cool playing. In terms of what my teacher said, at first I thought no freaking way. There is no way you can get access to all the strings vertically only by rotating your wrist. I'll post a link of him explaining the motion.
I tried it, and it actually feels better than moving the arm and rotating the wrist at the same time. This becomes apparent when you try arpeggio figures where you have one note per string. I have to admit, the picking still feels foreign, even though I got used to floating and doing some rotation. Here's a video:
The crazy thing for me is that the motion is all in the forearm rotation. Check out his stuff if you have a chance, especially if you are interested in teaching broader concepts to your students. He got me thinking and hearing music differently, for sure. Fun stuff.
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But like I said before, it's all what works for you and you have more facility than I do. Bruce told me that he messed up his arm because he ignored the pain in his picking and had to relearn how to pick all over again. He always tells me to be aware of physical tension when I play.
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I find the motion ala Bruce Arnold to be very useful for alternate picking when there are odd notes of groups on the strings because the pick is always "above" or away from the strings, making it easy to do the next up or downstroke. It never gets caught in the strings.
Might have to link those videos to Troy to get his opinion on them, actually.
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I actually emailed Troy and said that they should collaborate as they are both extremely detail orientated people. Understandably, Troy said he was ridiculously busy getting all the material out at the moment. Actually, Troy told me to ask Bruce about picking and to look at my right hand. That's how I got a better picture of the forearm rotation. I'll give it a couple of months, at least, before I post a video showing the technique. I think I have the concept down, but there are little details that I am overlooking that are still producing tension.
One detail I've noticed is that the amount of pick that makes contact with the string directly effects the speed that you can pick. Makes sense. Not sure how to get a louder or fuller sound with the very tip of the pick hitting the string, but my investigations continue.
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You should be able to do upstrokes with the pick angle they might feel weird at first though. Originally Posted by EDS
I probably haven't explained the technique very well. There's quite a few elements that aren't easy to describe. If you are interested in gypsy picking there are some good videos on youtube. If not, fair does.
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From the point of view of the Troy videos, he does say that you can explore different motions for picking - wrist, arm rotation, whole arm movements etc. The important thing is the pick slanting. Originally Posted by EDS
I suggest downloading some of his videos and watching carefully. He explains things well.Last edited by christianm77; 07-29-2015 at 05:42 PM.
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Btw Peter's right hand is really 'wrong'...Here's a clip of Jimmy live with Peter Bernstein. Not a burning tune, but it's nice to see these two together.
wronger onlly Pat's right hand...
But really works fine for both
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Those videos were neat. Thanks. This is a bit like the "shake" that JC Stylles talks about with the Benson grip. I like the "EKG" exercise and will do that (-for the first time) later this morning. Originally Posted by Irez87
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I emailed Troy regarding some picking stuff as well, and he was very cordial as well concerning syntax/vibe and all that. Private messages can actually be somewhat revealing regarding anyone who has some traction/following, and Troy wasn't standoffish at all. Originally Posted by Irez87
Re the Bruce Arnold 'rotation'-- I think it works well as sort of an 'auto' style of alt picking at slow/moderate tempos, but when you start to get up to say the mid 270's/early 280's that unfortunately seems to be at which the wrist and arm say, "I'm good". Phrases at the speed(s) EDS has posted above, for instance, would be hugely unlikely for a strict/wrote rotation that always ends on an up such as that 'door knob' like motion Arnold shows. The string hopping motion Troy mentions is similar in it's end result-- either stroke end on an up stroke and I find it can even get a bit faster than the above rotation, but as he mentions feels like it takes more out of your hand/arm.
After some years on the lookout, I've conceded that that type of 'auto' up-down motion that would in theory always produce upstrokes at higher tempos without need for pre-planned or semi-strategic pick slant's probably isn't out there-- one of the myriad talented tens of thousands of guitarists thus far would have discovered it...probably.
As Troy's email said:
"Hi Zip- I see what you're getting at but that's not how improvisation works for me. It's all pre-memorized at some level -- the same as it is in writing and speaking and other extemporaneous arts. The difference is that elite players have way more of these memorized shapes and connections than average players, not less. The problem also exists on mechanically simpler instruments like piano, but the thousands of possible fretting combinations on the guitar just makes it more obvious that you can't simply "figure it out" on the fly. Putting in the time to build these large, complex fretboard maps and figure out all the connections between the shapes is the reason why the best improvisers seem to have a huge quantity cool things to play, while average players constantly repeat the same basic things. In the grand scheme, the picking is really a drop in the bucket, and quickly becomes second nature."
This involving my question of the seeming mountain in front of one if they wanted to apply pick slant variations to a much 'larger' vocabulary in high tempo improv, not just pre-planned solos. According to Troy, atleast, even with all the different slant combinations in-phrase available, play them enough, practice enough, and they will eventually become 'automatic', allowing bigger line connections to become possible.
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I think there's a lot to that. As Henry Johnson says, "Submit to the language." Originally Posted by Zip09
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Hey EDS...
again sounds cool... I don't really know what benson picking really is... it works for him, and that's good enough for me.
What I see is when you pick at med. tempos... you almost up pick everything, you have a lot of pick exposed. There is a lot of movement. When you pick faster, it seems to level out but gets tight. The feel changes. Don't know if this is good or bad. Wanted or not.
Personally seems like you have to much pick movement up and down, the distance the pick travels above the strings and how much below the strings your attacks are. I can't really tell if that's just style, showmanship type of thing or if that's your natural picking.
Again none of this seems like it's really getting in your way... maybe the phrasing and feel at fast tempos... but when your burnin at a gig... who knows.
The other detail is your playing somewhat solid body and action type of guitar, at least that's what it looks like. The exaggerated type of movement seems to help articulations... so maybe it's needed...
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Hey, Irez87 - wow thanks for asking him about this stuff! The videos are great Originally Posted by Irez87
Thanks again for looking at it - I would not have caught any of that. I tend to pick and slur alot which is probably why you see alot of up picks. I tried picking as normally for me as possible in the video. Originally Posted by Reg
I do know that at medium-slower tempos I will do deliberate things to slow down my attack - angling the pick differently or playing off the edge/side - it gives a little more resistance kind of like playing with the thumb. It makes it feel a little behind the beat and avoid rushy sounding phrases at those tempos - in the vid I was just trying to play normal but maybe I was doing some of that on accident?
Troy Grady points out in the video about Steve Morse that a wide travel of the pick is necessary to avoid string-hops so maybe its a good thing?
I'm getting my picking dialed in more the last year - tempos around 300 BPM seem a lot slower than they used to. Your observation about the feel changing when I go faster is very interesting and spot-on - I'm going to spend some time thinking about that. I feel my double-timing isn't integrated well into the regular lines. I don't feel my wrist tighten-up but I do feel it change orientation when double-timing.
I guess overall I think my picking and articulation sounds okay but I'm just frustrated by my current limitations within this picking style.Last edited by EDS; 07-29-2015 at 12:33 PM.
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Nylon Strung Ken Parker - could interest some
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