Alternate Picking at Fast Tempos

[vintagelove]

Hi, and thanks for looking. I have a question for those that can play 16th (yes 16th) notes at 150 and above (not to "offend" others, just they can't really answer the question).


How often do you find yourself using alternate picking at that speed?


A little context. I spent a long time developing my picking hand. In college I even played some Yngwie stuff with alternate picking, before I knew he economy picked. So, i can alternate pick into the high 160's over anything possible to play that speed (when I'm practicing it). Now, maybe it's because I can already do it, or maybe I have done it so long I am sick of it. But it seems I can't stand the sound of it anymore. There are certain exceptions (6 notes clusters, etc), and sometimes alternate picking is the best/only solution (ever try playing Bach's Cmin prelude from the WTC, ugh).


So again, for those that play very fast, how often do you find yourself alternate picking these days. Especially with regard to 3 notes on a string, transitioning to the next string. Nowadays, I seem to economy pick. Especially lately, I have been using "pick/slur" which can take you into warp speed, and sounds incredibly smooth. If you haven't tried it, do it. In like less than a day I could play as fast if not faster than economy or alternate, and without the "machine gun" sound you get from alternate picking (which can be cool if thats the sound you want). Well worth the effort!!!

Thanks again for any input you have on the subject.

[cosmic gumbo]

I find it a moot issue if you've made rhythmic variety your priority while developing speed, it is jazz after all.

[vintagelove]

I find it a moot issue if you've made rhythmic variety your priority while developing speed, it is jazz after all.

Ok, but if your going to play a fast run, what technique do you use?

I don't think it's a "moot issue" as last I check almost every instrument that plays bebop, plays fast. It seems like only guitar players complain about too fast/too many notes. But I'm sure Dizzy, Bird, and Coltrane didn't have rhythm as a priority...

[Shadow of the Sun]

But I'm sure Dizzy, Bird, and Coltrane didn't have rhythm as a priority...

In which case you would be wrong. Dizzy, at least, said numerous times that his improvisations were based on the rhythms he heard in his head and putting notes to those rhythms.

[princeplanet]

Like yourself, I brought over a fast alternate picking technique to my Jazz playing from other genres, and it's been a bitch learning to adjust the right hand to express the Bop language..... I found that over many years I gradually abandoned the strict alternate thing for the economy thing. With Bop type lines, you never play too many scale notes in a row, and there's always string skipping and position extensions that require sliding, and that forces you to sweep/slur certain notes to get to speed.

With longer consecutive note passages, you always have the choice to alt pick everything or to slur sometimes. I now try to explore every way I can think of to express certain ideas, picking wise, and choose the method that sounds "best" to me. Note I say "sounds" best as opposed to "feels" best.... not always the same thing!

Ultimately, one's individual sense of taste dictates these choices. No 2 guitar players sound alike because of our unique picking styles, and this , I feel, can be exploited to one's advantage, to aim for a unique "voice".

[vintagelove]

In which case you would be wrong. Dizzy, at least, said numerous times that his improvisations were based on the rhythms he heard in his head and putting notes to those rhythms.

Some of you folks are impossible..... You don't think horn players discuss the pro/cons of alternate fingerings, embouchure, etc?


I didn't ask how to play jazz, I didn't ask for a lecture on rhythm.

I asked at fast tempos how do you pick 3 notes on one string and transition to the next string.



Could we please have a thread without lectures where the actual question is answered. Thanks

[vintagelove]

I found that over many years I gradually abandoned the strict alternate thing for the economy thing.

Thank you for an actually answer to the question.



I agree, to play bebop, you really need to be able to do it all. Economy, alternate, slurs, (impossible things like mimicking horns etc). Many time within the same line.

[cosmic gumbo]

Thanks again for any input you have on the subject.

Thanks for complaining....

[jkstigma]

my teacher once told me,,, "practice slow...to play fast"

[robertm2000]

I remember reading critics in many music styles who said about different artists that "they could say more with one note than others could with a whole page of notes." To me it has always seemed that playing fast is just an attempt to find the right note instead of actually knowing how to choose and play it.

[grahambop]

I don't really get this '3 notes per string' thing. In a solo I might play a phrase that needs 5 notes on one string (e.g. chromatic run with a change of direction in the middle) then 2 notes on another string, etc. I rarely play any actual music that conforms to 3 nps.

I play alternate picking because I never thought of any other way, just seemed natural. But I never learned it as a 'strict 100% all the time' thing. I just developed whatever it required to play the lines I wanted to play. So I also slide/slur to deal with position/fingering shifts etc. In fact I like doing this for musical reasons too, because it makes the line less 'picky/staccato'. Horn players can put nice articulations in the line with tongueing etc. so I think of these slur-type effects as being similar.

Anyway I just checked and my limit for 16ths is about 120 so I'm not qualified to answer!

[mr. beaumont]

I use both on fast runs...depends on the lick. If it would just be "shred fast" three on a string ascending, definitely economy. But i honestly can't think of too many times when I'd do that...doesn't sound "jazz" to me...

[MarkRhodes]

I find it a moot issue if you've made rhythmic variety your priority while developing speed, it is jazz after all.

I think rhythmic variety is important to jazz but I also think one hears more of it at slower tempos. When Charlie Parker played the blues slow, he used all manner of rhythmic variety (-32s, 16ths, triplets, 8ths, quarter notes, halves, wholes) but when the tempo went north of 200, he relied more on long strings of 8th notes, and the faster the tempo, the more even the 8th notes got.

When you get above the level at which you can play double time, your rhythmic variety is going to decrease.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't really get this '3 notes per string' thing. In a solo I might play a phrase that needs 5 notes on one string (e.g. chromatic run with a change of direction in the middle) then 2 notes on another string, etc. I rarely play any actual music that conforms to 3 nps.

I believe that 3 NPS refers to scale fingerings / patterns and not to the actual number of notes one plays on a string.

The key, really, is that 3 is an odd number: if you start with a downstroke and play an odd number of notes---1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11) you will be on a downstroke going to the next string. If you play an even number of notes on a string, beginning with a downstroke, you will exit that string on an upstroke.

This is why, for example, when Frank Gambale taught scale fingerings in his book "Speed Picking," when he reached the high E string, he would play only 2 notes, (down, up), thus returning to the B string on an upstroke.

[vintagelove]

Thanks for complaining....

Why the need to troll a thread with a legitimate technical question? Please, be a productive member of the community and if you don't have anything valuable to add, don't post. Thanks

[pamosmusic]

I believe that 3 NPS refers to scale fingerings / patterns and not to the actual number of notes one plays on a string.

The key, really, is that 3 is an odd number: if you start with a downstroke and play an odd number of notes---1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11) you will be on a downstroke going to the next string. If you play an even number of notes on a string, beginning with a downstroke, you will exit that string on an upstroke.

This is why, for example, when Frank Gambale taught scale fingerings in his book "Speed Picking," when he reached the high E string, he would play only 2 notes, (down, up), thus returning to the B string on an upstroke.

I think Graham was referring to the fact that in "the wild" so to speak ... phrases don't work that way. For example ... if you learn a bird lick or something there might be three chromatic notes in a row that completely screws that fingering up and then a triad arpeggio that has one note per string for three strings and then a turn that you slur and a pentatonic blues lick back down with two notes per string. So what good does "3 NPS" do you there? I consider that system of fingering a useful vehicle for practicing economy picking but I don't see where making that your biblical word of god system really does anything for you.

Aside from that ... I probably don't play fast enough to participate in this thread

For what it's worth though ... on rare occasions that I find myself playing really fast I usually happen to be slurring very effectively. Not economy picking or strictly alternating but slurring well. Picking less altogether.

[vintagelove]

my teacher once told me,,, "practice slow...to play fast"

He is correct, he just left out the practice it for 1000 hours part.

[vintagelove]

I remember reading critics in many music styles who said about different artists that "they could say more with one note than others could with a whole page of notes." To me it has always seemed that playing fast is just an attempt to find the right note instead of actually knowing how to choose and play it.

What is the point of this post? How does it address the question asked? Did you just need a little attention?

[vintagelove]

I don't really get this '3 notes per string' thing. In a solo I might play a phrase that needs 5 notes on one string (e.g. chromatic run with a change of direction in the middle) then 2 notes on another string, etc. I rarely play any actual music that conforms to 3 nps.

I play alternate picking because I never thought of any other way, just seemed natural. But I never learned it as a 'strict 100% all the time' thing. I just developed whatever it required to play the lines I wanted to play. So I also slide/slur to deal with position/fingering shifts etc. In fact I like doing this for musical reasons too, because it makes the line less 'picky/staccato'. Horn players can put nice articulations in the line with tongueing etc. so I think of these slur-type effects as being similar.

Anyway I just checked and my limit for 16ths is about 120 so I'm not qualified to answer!

I didn't say shred licks with 3NPS, I said if you play 3 notes on a string and transition to the next, how do you accomplish it. This happens all the time and if you don't understand the technical reasoning behind the question, its likely you have not spent enough time examining the issues that arise when picking.

[pamosmusic]

I didn't say shred licks with 3NPS, I said if you play 3 notes on a string and transition to the next, how do you accomplish it. This happens all the time and if you don't understand the technical reasoning behind the question, its likely you have not spent enough time examining the issues that arise when picking.

May I ask what the purpose behind the question is? What do you mean by transition? I don't usually do 3 NPS but I'll often economy pick through triad parts and things like that ... what's the difficulty you're having? Truth be told if you're looking for advice on how to move from one picking method to the next there's probably none to give. Practice a line slow with the picking you want and then bump up the tempo until it's comfortable. Then do the same with another line, and then another, and then another, and after a while it becomes intuitive.

[princeplanet]

Thank you for an actually answer to the question.



I agree, to play bebop, you really need to be able to do it all. Economy, alternate, slurs, (impossible things like mimicking horns etc). Many time within the same line.

Absolutely. Another thing I forgot to mention is that, after spending a good 10 years investigating economy picking, it started to happen unconciously. By that I mean that if I learned a complicated string of notes and started out alternate picking, as I got the line up to "speed" (usually 8ths at 300), my right hand would intuitively revert to a form of economy, without me consciously controlling it.

Now, 10 years sounds like a long time to wait for good habits to bear fruit, and I wish I could say it only took 2, but the truth is my previous alt picking habits were so deeply ingrained, it took a long time to replace those habits...

I know some players can pull off high speed Bop with strictly alt picking, but it usually sounds "stiff" or contrived. Why is it then that piano or vibes players, who also have that "strike every note" sound, manage to find more dynamic and organic expression with their solos?

[pamosmusic]

and if you can economy pick into the "high 160s" are you talking eighth notes? triplets? sixteenths?

[vintagelove]

I think rhythmic variety is important to jazz but I also think one hears more of it at slower tempos. When Charlie Parker played the blues slow, he used all manner of rhythmic variety (-32s, 16ths, triplets, 8ths, quarter notes, halves, wholes) but when the tempo went north of 200, he relied more on long strings of 8th notes, and the faster the tempo, the more even the 8th notes got.

When you get above the level at which you can play double time, your rhythmic variety is going to decrease.

Would you mind just closing this thread? Obviously no one took the time to read the OP and its just going to turn into one big jealousy/hate filled thread.


Folks if you don't understand the technical reason why 3 notes on one string transitioning to the next string (not 3NPS shred licks) causes problems, you should really do some study on picking technique.

[vintagelove]

May I ask what the purpose behind the question is? What do you mean by transition? I don't usually do 3 NPS but I'll often economy pick through triad parts and things like that ... what's the difficulty you're having? Truth be told if you're looking for advice on how to move from one picking method to the next there's probably none to give. Practice a line slow with the picking you want and then bump up the tempo until it's comfortable. Then do the same with another line, and then another, and then another, and after a while it becomes intuitive.

Did you take the time to read the OP?

[mr. beaumont]

I did happen to address your question...but you're too busy whining to notice.