Alternate Picking at Fast Tempos

**christianm77** · 05-09-2015, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by mrcee

True, not really a ridiculous statement. Maybe a little bombastic or overwrought.
Miles also said that with guitarists and piano players both you were always having to "reel them in". Sure true with both
pre and post FX guitarists. (me included) In my opinion.

Again, regardless of the guitar's limitations in straight jazz in terms of expressiveness and harmonic palette etc, it is capable of creating great rhythmic drive. Charlie Christian sure did. I'd like to hear more.
Listen to Guy's Got To Go from Minton's. At the end of about the 3rd bar you hear a woman call out "Alright!" like she was really feeling it. Like Bob said "One thing 'bout music, when it hits you feel no pain".

I love that about those recordings. Nothing put on about the reactions of the audience. You feel like you were there...

**mrcee** · 05-09-2015, 08:02 PM

For sure. That's what I'm in the game for.

**edh** · 05-09-2015, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Sounds like an easy way to get a free beer.

Jus' sayin.'

Only...I would rather drink it than wear it.

**fumblefingers** · 05-09-2015, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by vhollund

He has been very into the lydian concepts of George Russel

The ultimate value of which is nil. But that's ok, we all have to be into something.

but what does that have to do with oil?

**vhollund** · 05-10-2015, 06:21 AM

I dono
What do you think ?

**vhollund** · 05-10-2015, 06:37 AM

A thing that i find really gets in the way of playing fast and relaxed, is if the others aren't keeping time and it moves up and down
The backing should be like a rock solid foundation
Just slightly pulling up or down on purpose
If a bassplayer is too in front of the beat and time fluctuating, everything I play feels lacking behind
If he is dropping the beat it feels like the notes loose value and everything is precipitated

Could be interesting to hear others experience with dealing with bad time and staying with /on it in spite
(maybe a new topic?)

**fumblefingers** · 05-10-2015, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by vhollund

I dono
What do you think ?

nada.

some musicians and artists simply feel the need to bitch about things they have little grasp of. i like what Zappa said, "just shut up and play your guitar".

**vhollund** · 05-10-2015, 03:38 PM

Then why don't you ?

**fumblefingers** · 05-10-2015, 06:34 PM

maybe i will. just not sure what type of propaganda you're pushing yet.

here's a question for you - when you want to know all about fusion guitar, do you consult with a scientist at the department of energy? no? well then why consult with a fusion guitarist about the energy business?

oh yeah, i forgot. "artists" know everything; how we should live, how we should eat, how we should make whoopie, who we should vote for. because, well, they're artists, and being the dropouts that they are, we should listen to them!

any half-wit knows that.

**pushkar000** · 05-10-2015, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by vhollund

A thing that i find really gets in the way of playing fast and relaxed, is if the others aren't keeping time and it moves up and down
The backing should be like a rock solid foundation
Just slightly pulling up or down on purpose
If a bassplayer is too in front of the beat and time fluctuating, everything I play feels lacking behind
If he is dropping the beat it feels like the notes loose value and everything is precipitated

Could be interesting to hear others experience with dealing with bad time and staying with /on it in spite
(maybe a new topic?)

To have better time, I think its a process of a few steps.

1) To understand the difference between different types of time.
2) To hear these differences in various players and be able to make a judgement call of your own opinion.
3) To record yourself, play back, and hear your own crappy time. (yes personal experience speaking)
4) ...well I'm at this stage so I don't know step 4!

**vhollund** · 05-10-2015, 08:54 PM

Yes there's a thousand ways to improve ones own time feel, for sure

Not really the same issue i was talking about though
When you play solo your primairy role is not to keep the time for the others
When comping and even when playing the head theme, you can dominate the time somewhat straight
When soloing it's different and it should be so
Because you allow yourself more freedom to fluctuate against the rythme/ pulse
As opposed to sounding overly controlled and abit constipated,
from 'quantising' everything

**AleikhBaba** · 05-31-2015, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

Folks if you don't understand the technical reason why 3 notes on one string transitioning to the next string (not 3NPS shred licks) causes problems, you should really do some study on picking technique.

used to economize on that stuff earlier when i was into Yngwie. Eventually I found out that it tends to sounds rhythmically weak especially when playing in a situation where the music swings (of course jimmy bruno sounds quite alright using economy picking

) worthwhile alternating on that like Gilbert or a McLaughlin.
however when combined with sensible use of slur + pick-stroke, things can def work out the way you want. when I practice bach, wohlfahrt etudes, or my own exercises, I make an effort to always work on alternate picking.

when I get down to playing, I play, which combines economy picking, alternate, hybrid and slurring. whatever your technique, it's got to groove. sometimes you'll realize that you might want to execute things according to how you worked it out, but you might find your body revolting against said use because it feels rhythmically incorrect. a lot of ins and outs to it, but basically if it looks good, feels good and sounds good, you're aite.

on a side, I used to do all those sweep picked patterns, but now I want to get my hybrid chops up to par, so that shit grooves harder. don't like that raking sound of the pick much anymore (though I have to fall back on it when reqd)

**christianm77** · 05-31-2015, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

used to economize on that stuff earlier when i was into Yngwie. Eventually I found out that it tends to sounds rhythmically weak especially when playing in a situation where the music swings (of course jimmy bruno sounds quite alright using economy picking

) worthwhile alternating on that like Gilbert or a McLaughlin.
however when combined with sensible use of slur + pick-stroke, things can def work out the way you want. when I practice bach, wohlfahrt etudes, or my own exercises, I make an effort to always work on alternate picking.

when I get down to playing, I play, which combines economy picking, alternate, hybrid and slurring. whatever your technique, it's got to groove. sometimes you'll realize that you might want to execute things according to how you worked it out, but you might find your body revolting against said use because it feels rhythmically incorrect. a lot of ins and outs to it, but basically if it looks good, feels good and sounds good, you're aite.

on a side, I used to do all those sweep picked patterns, but now I want to get my hybrid chops up to par, so that shit grooves harder. don't like that raking sound of the pick much anymore (though I have to fall back on it when reqd)

With some of my playing, there can definitely be a tendency to rush slightly when sweeping from string to string. Extremely common, hard to fight, and for some reason less of an issue on acoustic (maybe we are used to that sound? ;-)) Anyway, that's a gypsy jazz vibe, and on electric you pick softer, so you go back to economy picking.

I think Benson, Bruno etc are able to do it, but they hit the strings pretty hard, no? floating hand technique? It's more of an acoustic approach to electric (I'd say.)

Things with hammer ons sound great. I suppose the thing is to get it so that everything is correctly fingered for electric. Maybe less fast movement across the strings,

Since I got a good amp and started practicing with it I feel I'm back to school haha, after 5 years of heavy acoustic practice.

So either I rework my vocab, or perhaps start trying to make everything super even with a metronome.... Hmmm

**AleikhBaba** · 05-31-2015, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Anyway, that's a gypsy jazz vibe, and on electric you pick softer, so you go back to economy picking.

on that note, TOUCH is of paramount importance, and can change how you evaluate one technique vs. another. especially when you factor in the weight of an individual's hand, and how much they choke or coax or sexualize/fetishize the pick in any other way.

**Koshchei** · 06-04-2015, 10:24 AM

I use economy picking over alternate picking in almost all circumstances. It takes far less effort to stay in time when crossing/skipping strings at high tempo (16ths at >160), and lends itself really well to sweep picking.

Unless you're specifically going for that totally uniform compressed machine-gun death metal sound, there's no real need to develop your picking hand to a level where you can alternate pick that quickly (it's also a bugger to maintain -- three days away from ta metronome and your timing goes to ****).

**christianm77** · 06-04-2015, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

on that note, TOUCH is of paramount importance, and can change how you evaluate one technique vs. another. especially when you factor in the weight of an individual's hand, and how much they choke or coax or sexualize/fetishize the pick in any other way.

I think I like this post. TBH it left me with some disturbing imagery.

I try not to sexualise my pick... but.. these... urges....

**Koshchei** · 06-05-2015, 01:47 PM

You've been a dirty, naughty pick. I think I'm going to have to hit you against these metal cables.

**AleikhBaba** · 06-06-2015, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Koshchei

I use economy picking over alternate picking in almost all circumstances. It takes far less effort to stay in time when crossing/skipping strings at high tempo (16ths at >160), and lends itself really well to sweep picking.

Unless you're specifically going for that totally uniform compressed machine-gun death metal sound, there's no real need to develop your picking hand to a level where you can alternate pick that quickly (it's also a bugger to maintain -- three days away from ta metronome and your timing goes to ****).

I used to economy pick way more when I initially started. especially once I got into Malmsteen etc. over time however I found that alternate picking provided a stronger rhythmic basis, and really make things fit in the pocket. People talk a lot about using economy picking combined with slurs in bebop, which totally stands - but the point is, certain hit points in your phrase will require you to alternate to keep the momentum going. situations like those, my body sometimes tends to revolt against directional picking, so I gotta go with what feels right in my gut and allows me to feel more relaxed.

Secondly, alternate picking need not always lead to the machine-gun articulation. That's really an extreme case where you alternate pick almost 99% of the things that you're playing. Most modern players across idioms exercise diversity in articulation with varying degrees of pick attack. But nothing beats having a solid alternate picking technique (which is why I've had to work hard at it later on, and still at it). as I mentioned before, during performance (whether live or in a controlled environment during practice) you gotta for it whatever you got in your arsenal to get the music out right and proper.

**vintagelove** · 06-06-2015, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

Secondly, alternate picking need not always lead to the machine-gun articulation. That's really an extreme case where you alternate pick almost 99% of the things that you're playing. Most modern players across idioms exercise diversity in articulation with varying degrees of pick attack. But nothing beats having a solid alternate picking technique (which is why I've had to work hard at it later on, and still at it). as I mentioned before, during performance (whether live or in a controlled environment during practice) you gotta for it whatever you got in your arsenal to get the music out right and proper.

The reason I put very very fast in the title was that's when the machine gun thing happens. That's the sound I am trying to avoid nowadays.

Interesting note, Joe Pass used economy picking when ascending, I never hear anyone complain about his articulation. Sounds great to me!!!