Alternate Picking at Fast Tempos

[pamosmusic]

Yes I actually did read the thread ... you want to know how people transition to the next string when economy picking. It seemed like you were looking for advice on how people make that transition when you responded to Graham's post. My apologies if I misunderstood.

[pamosmusic]

Folks if you don't understand the technical reason why 3 notes on one string transitioning to the next string (not 3NPS shred licks) causes problems, you should really do some study on picking technique.

Three notes per string is hard because you either have to economy pick through or you have to go from an down stroke to an up stroke on a string that is physically below the string you were just on (or vice versa). Your slurring thing alleviates that problem. I prefer not to do that because I use slurring as an articulation that affects the sound of the notes and prefer not to allow the physical position of the notes to dictate how they sound. That means I have a lower ceiling with tempo and I accept that trade off. Does that work?

[vintagelove]

I did happen to address your question...but you're too busy whining to notice.

Et tu Mr. Beaumont?



I apologize but I have lessons today, it was eat breakfast or respond to you post. My student is late, hence me writing now. I was going to thank you for contributing, but I see you would rather make offensive comments. Thanks for your contribution....

[vintagelove]

Three notes per string is hard because you either have to economy pick through or you have to go from an down stroke to an up stroke on a string that is physically below the string you were just on (or vice versa). Your slurring thing alleviates that problem. I prefer not to do that because I use slurring as an articulation that affects the sound of the notes and prefer not to allow the physical position of the notes to dictate how they sound. That means I have a lower ceiling with tempo and I accept that trade off. Does that work?

Read the op again. I can alternate/economy/any style pick 16ths above 160bpm. This is not a how to thread. Its is a simple question for guys that can do the above if they still choose to alternate pick at those tempos.

Have to gp lesson arrived, Ill continue later if the thread is still open.

[pamosmusic]

Clearly no one here is worthy of posting on this thread. Maybe you should just email to Sheryl Bailey and ask her. I don't play as fast as you obviously ... but when I play at up tempos I said that I DON'T choose to alternate pick - then again I don't really choose to strictly alternate pick at any tempo. I hope you get a response here that fits your criteria and I apologize for wasting your time.

[Playerizor]

I remember reading critics in many music styles who said about different artists that "they could say more with one note than others could with a whole page of notes." To me it has always seemed that playing fast is just an attempt to find the right note instead of actually knowing how to choose and play it.

Thank you for adding this.

[mr. beaumont]

Et tu Mr. Beaumont?



I apologize but I have lessons today, it was eat breakfast or respond to you post. My student is late, hence me writing now. I was going to thank you for contributing, but I see you would rather make offensive comments. Thanks for your contribution....

I'd rather have a civil discussion about practical application of picking, but instead i have to read lecturing, complaining, etc...

did you actually want an answer?

[grahambop]

I didn't say shred licks with 3NPS, I said if you play 3 notes on a string and transition to the next, how do you accomplish it. This happens all the time and if you don't understand the technical reasoning behind the question, its likely you have not spent enough time examining the issues that arise when picking.

OK I see, you meant 'on the occasions when you have to play 3 nps etc'. There was another thread discussing 3 nps scales so I probably had that in mind when I read your post.

I do understand the issues, since I mainly alternate pick so I have come up against the awkwardness it causes when moving to the next string. Basically I either put up with it, or sometimes I do what I think you referred to, i.e. pick note 1, pick note 2, then slur into note 3, then move to the next string. But I probably only do this sparingly, as it changes the sound of the articulation a lot.

[Reg]

Yea... I almost always alternate... at least that's my basic starting point. It's my natural phrasing. Even with arpeggios etc...

Obviously there are some lines that are physically just tough...

And it really depends... usually I have one shot, right, unless I've played it before,(and remember), or actually have the time to use the best fingering and picking to phrase.

I read and play a lot of heads and lines with horns...(I've played Bone and Saxes most of my life, just no good), but I understand their phrasing issues also... straight ahead material is easy, but pentatonic, 4th and somewhat contemporary melodic figures can be tricky to phrase together. If articulations were always notated, would be easier.

If your comfortable with 8ths at 300, or 16th at buck fifty... your doing well. Not many tunes get faster than 320, and usually their standards... so their not really new.

[pushkar000]

Mostly economy. Sometimes I'll slip into alternate. I think its guided by whatever rhythmic or accent pattern I am consciously or subconsciously trying to follow.
Generally when I play fast my vocabulary is quite limited and I fall back into certain rhythmic or other types of patterns. A lot which are legato based as well so I don't end up picking all that much.

If I had to play a 16th note run at 150bpm of 3nps, I would do it legato in a pretty haphazard manner. If I had to pick every note, I'd do it alternate.

[mike335]

economy picking is made for 3nps

[princeplanet]

Some interesting responses (as well as responses to responses) going on in this thread that warrants notice, so -

Warning, thread digression ahead (apologies in advance, maybe I should move it to a new thread?).

Most Jazz guitarists dislike Jazz guitar "shredders". We're suspicious of their motives - are they simply out to dupe the non players out there (ie, average listeners) into thinking they are masterful ? Fast guitar can be a cheap trick, many of us learned how easy it was to play fast rock or blues, and how easy it seemed to amaze casual listeners!

I recently played 2 youtube clips to my young nephew who plays a little. One was the great Jimmy Raney doing his thing, medium tempo "masterful" playing from what seemed to be an inexhaustible well of harmonically sophisticated vocab. Most jazz lovers appreciate his astonishing invention and (seeming) lack of contrived figures. Beautiful and mind boggling at the same time. Next I played a youtube of a young try hard showing off playing some simple scale patterns and diminished runs. It was reasonably fast and cleanly played, but little more than basic scale running.

So I asked my nephew which clip he liked best, and secondly who was the better player. He looked at me in disbelief, like I was pulling his leg. In his mind, like in most jazz illiterate people, "faster" means "better", in every respect....

None of you are surprised by this, because we all know that people are easily impressed with fast guitar, the 60's, 70's and 80's promoted dozens of guitar "heroes" - all of them were fast players. But us "seasoned" aspiring Jazz players know better, and ridicule those, even within Jazz, that spend much of their time in the distasteful pursuit of "shredder" speed- particularly as it usually seems to come at the expense of the dozens of other facets of our art. It's a cheap trick to attract unwarranted attention. We're not "jealous", were just offended, and we wish to discourage jazz guitar shredding, because it cheapens our art.

There, it's now been said in this thread, and I know I speak for many if not most of us.

But here's the thing - I love fast jazz! Maybe not fast jazz guitarists so much, but if I listed my fave 20 jazz soloists, I'd say 16 or 17 of them also love to play fast. So naturally, I'm spending a lot of time copping many a slick sax, trumpet or piano line, and I just hate for anyone to hear me practicing, for fear of coming off sounding like a wannabe Jazz shredder. And naturally, sometimes I wonder if I'm really no better than a wannabe jazz shredder, especially when I feel the condemnation that descends on threads like these whenever this thorny issue of "playing fast" comes up.

But I know I'm not in it for attention, and I'm not looking for shortcuts, or bang-for-buck tricks. I've put in some seriously hard yards whilst trying to also develop my harmonic knowledge, rhythmic sense and ear training etc. But I love the challenge and thrill of the tightrope, to navigate changes and land my lines gives me great satisfaction. So no, I don't feel cheap, in fact I feel it's a noble pursuit of excellence. Yeah, sure, why not? From Paganini to Horowitz, or from Parker to Brecker, pushing your technique to the limit in order to express the complex sounds you want to put out into the world is a perfectly fine thing to aspire to, even for us Jazz guitarists!

So I guess my point is that not all of us that practice speedy technique should be summarily dismissed as cheap attention seeking wannabe "shredders". In fact, I'd be mortified if anyone thought that of my playing!

[vintagelove]

Yea... I almost always alternate... at least that's my basic starting point. It's my natural phrasing. Even with arpeggios etc...

Obviously there are some lines that are physically just tough...

And it really depends... usually I have one shot, right, unless I've played it before,(and remember), or actually have the time to use the best fingering and picking to phrase.

I read and play a lot of heads and lines with horns...(I've played Bone and Saxes most of my life, just no good), but I understand their phrasing issues also... straight ahead material is easy, but pentatonic, 4th and somewhat contemporary melodic figures can be tricky to phrase together. If articulations were always notated, would be easier.

If your comfortable with 8ths at 300, or 16th at buck fifty... your doing well. Not many tunes get faster than 320, and usually their standards... so their not really new.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

[vintagelove]

I love fast jazz!

Me too!!!...... FWIW I have never heard the term jazz shredder before today. Take a guy like Tim Miller, great player, great lines, plays fast but with his unique vocabulary. Whats not to like???? And as far as "suspicious of motives", what motive could I have??? The truth is, haters are gonna hate, they always have, they always will. People see something they can't do, and immediately have a negative reaction to it.

The entire point of the thread was exactly to ask how other players went about coping the sax lines. Sometimes alternate picking is a little to staccato, and sometimes just not possible. I found that my economy picking smooths out the line in comparison, seems you did too.

If you don't mind, let me just encourage you to not give one sh@t about what anyone thinks of your playing. If you have an artistic goal in your ears and mind, pursue it. Also, if your sounding great when your practicing, chances are your not trying hard enough. Practicing should be focused on what you can't do yet, not rehashing things you have done 1000x. Totally different from "preparing" for a gig or other situation. Thanks when you need the material down 100%.

Thanks again.

[vintagelove]

I do what I think you referred to, i.e. pick note 1, pick note 2, then slur into note 3, then move to the next string. But I probably only do this sparingly, as it changes the sound of the articulation a lot.

If there are 3 notes on a string, and it continues to the next string, I will pick

down, up, down (this pick motion will continue through the next string resulting in another down stroke).

I hope that helps you understand the mechanics of it. I could alternate pick it, if its possible, at very high speeds, but the sound is more staccato and ultimately less horn like. If your having trouble at high speeds look into the technique above, it will help immensely. Once you can do both, then its a matter of what sounds best.

Have a good day.

[jzucker]

i use a combination of economy and slurs with a little economy picking. However, I can alternate-pick 16ths at 175 and above but if you pick every note it just sounds horrible. It also depends on what style you are playing. The groove of something like Holdsworth is very different than the groove of something like Pat Martino.

The most important thing is nailing the groove and tempo at slower tempos though. Don't force yourself faster until you can play the slower tempos.

[grahambop]

If there are 3 notes on a string, and it continues to the next string, I will pick

down, up, down (this pick motion will continue through the next string resulting in another down stroke).

I hope that helps you understand the mechanics of it. I could alternate pick it, if its possible, at very high speeds, but the sound is more staccato and ultimately less horn like. If your having trouble at high speeds look into the technique above, it will help immensely. Once you can do both, then its a matter of what sounds best.

Have a good day.

Yes that is what I do sometimes. I think I started doing slurs and pull-offs because I was copying Wes Montgomery lines and I liked the sound of it, as you say it stops everything getting too staccato.

For fast stuff I probably try out various fingerings and picking until I get the combination that works. There's usually going to be some slurs / pull-offs in there somewhere.

[vintagelove]

but if you pick every note it just sounds horrible.

Thanks for the reply. That was really the crux of my question. I used to like that sound, and still do for other styles, and even certain figures in jazz. It's just lately I have been digging the slippery sound you from economy and slurs more and more. I would hate to let my alternate picking slip, but really when do you ever need above 170bpm?

Anyway thanks again, I appreciate the input.

[jzucker]

I would hate to let my alternate picking slip, but really when do you ever need above 170bpm?

Anyway thanks again, I appreciate the input.

Sometimes it's just about saying something in double time for a short burst. Nice to have it when you need it. And having it allows you to control other phrasing that might otherwise be troublesome.

Not a fan of economy picking for jazz though. At least not for 8th note lines. For triplet arpeggios and certain effects it's nice but I feel it doesn't articulate enough to groove as a general purpose approach.

Just my opinion of course.

[Reg]

Some good point above... and 2nd to Jacks point about the groove... personally that's really all you need to think about. Is the way your picking helping or hurting with the groove.

I'll add... that I use down strokes generally to create hard attacks and accents... which can create some weird moments within a phrase as far as picking etc... but usually they're worth it.

I like to think that even if I can play something very fast, if I can't control and accent the way it's notated or how I or someone else wants the line played... I really can't play that fast... I'm not sure that right... but just getting the line out is just the beginning of being able to play at faster tempos.

I'll also add that being able to play fast isn't the real goal. But if you can't subdivide at faster tempos... even while playing slow or med tempos, that groove is very different. Even when just comping... which is what I do as well as anyone... you need to be able to feel at faster tempos to make jazz happen. There are different levels of performance, and many of those can't be reached with out having the skills.

[sgcim]

Yea... I almost always alternate... at least that's my basic starting point. It's my natural phrasing. Even with arpeggios etc...

Obviously there are some lines that are physically just tough...

And it really depends... usually I have one shot, right, unless I've played it before,(and remember), or actually have the time to use the best fingering and picking to phrase.

I read and play a lot of heads and lines with horns...(I've played Bone and Saxes most of my life, just no good), but I understand their phrasing issues also... straight ahead material is easy, but pentatonic, 4th and somewhat contemporary melodic figures can be tricky to phrase together. If articulations were always notated, would be easier.

If your comfortable with 8ths at 300, or 16th at buck fifty... your doing well. Not many tunes get faster than 320, and usually their standards... so their not really new.

I wish you were right about that last paragraph, but I play in a big band where we regularly do charts that require the guitarist to play lines with the horns at tempos above 320. If I'm sightreading, i don't even try to play them until I've shedded them.

As far as alt. picking 3NPS, I think you should constantly practice challenges like that to improve your alt picking.
Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin, Johnny Smith and others can do it, so it's not impossible.
If you alt. pick major and minor scales at 336 using both 3NPS fingerings and standard (Segovia, Johnny Smith) fingerings like i do every day, you're presented with enough variety in plectrum combinations to enable you to not think about picking when you improvise.

[Vladan]

Anyway I just checked and my limit for 16ths is about 120 so I'm not qualified to answer!

Ha!!! Busted!!! My limit is at 124!!! 4 I'm better than you are!
Wen I was at 122, I was better 2.

To say "I can play 1/16 at 150 bpm" is nonsense unless stated what is being played and for how long. Are we speaking of rehearsed or improvised?
Licks of 1, 2, 4 ... how many bars, or improvising for a length of a tune, mostly in 1/8 and trioles with occasional runs of 1/16,...? Or what?

[GuyBoden]

How often do you find yourself using alternate picking at that speed?

I don't know if this is helpful, but I learned a lot from Rock guitarist tutorials.

I'm not a big Rock guitar fan, but I have an open mind and regularly checkup on Rock guitarist's techniques.

Some years back, when I was scrutinizing alternate picking techniques, I watched quite a few of Andy James and Paul Gilbert tutorials.

If you persevere and get past the first section of this Andy James youtube video, he shows alternate picking and moving between strings. His dvd on shredding shows it in more detail.

Andy James (Suggested start at 0:45 seconds, I'd suggest you get his DVD)

Paul Gilbert. (Suggested start at 4:40 seconds, old video, but I still think it has some good Alt picking advice, I'd suggest you get this DVD, it's a classic tutorial on Rock Alt picking)

Have fun
Guy

[AlsoRan]

Me too!!!...... FWIW I have never heard the term jazz shredder before today. Take a guy like Tim Miller, great player, great lines, plays fast but with his unique vocabulary. Whats not to like???? And as far as "suspicious of motives", what motive could I have??? The truth is, haters are gonna hate, they always have, they always will. People see something they can't do, and immediately have a negative reaction to it.

The entire point of the thread was exactly to ask how other players went about coping the sax lines. Sometimes alternate picking is a little to staccato, and sometimes just not possible. I found that my economy picking smooths out the line in comparison, seems you did too.

If you don't mind, let me just encourage you to not give one sh@t about what anyone thinks of your playing. If you have an artistic goal in your ears and mind, pursue it. Also, if your sounding great when your practicing, chances are your not trying hard enough. Practicing should be focused on what you can't do yet, not rehashing things you have done 1000x. Totally different from "preparing" for a gig or other situation. Thanks when you need the material down 100%.

Thanks again.

I am curious, since I share your appreciation and enjoyment of fast Jazz. Do you like some of the Jazz Fusion that is out there? Or, do you just like to hear fast Bebop, Hard Bop, and other Jazz movements that can be at higher tempos?

For example, I really like this guy, and the Jamtrax site that has his instructional videos has got some guys that play at a high tempo. Yet, I find their music exciting as opposed to boring, as some fast guys can be IMHO.

I find that I break down around 125 bpm, 16th notes playing different scales in a vertical fashion unless I am regularly doing exercises, but I am back to pursuing high tempos (again) and have been as high as 138 bpm, but not completely with the control I desire.

Oh well. I could go on and on, but I believe people look to music to fulfill a certain need, and that need determines which genre or type you seek. I look to music not necessarily for beauty or to be moved almost to tears, as many do. I am laid back and have to handle a lot of business that has become routine. So, I look to music the same way I look to caffiene, I am looking for a thrill. Flying along with the beat on a wild musical ride gives me that thrill, if the note selection and rhythm fit my fancy.


Thanks.

[ecj]

I find that I break down around 125 bpm, 16th notes playing different scales in a vertical fashion unless I am regularly doing exercises, but I am back to pursuing high tempos (again) and have been as high as 138 bpm, but not completely with the control I desire.

I think there's something really important about this paragraph. My experience in talking to and playing with lots of other players, and in fighting my own battle to get my picking together, is that once you hit the point where you're shifting the metronome up and down trying to "get it", you've already lost. Usually this happens for guitarists somewhere north of 120bpm playing things with 16th notes.

If it's hard at 125, it's going to be even harder at 150. That was a hard lesson for me to learn, and it took years to figure that out. You're not going to take something that is tense and difficult at 125 and speed it up another 25 bpm.

My experience was that I only broke through the ceiling and got up to 150 or 160 when I stopped doing what I was doing that didn't work, and went back to ground zero in basic analysis of my mechanics. When you have the right motions going, you can slowly bring the metronome up and find that there's no point where it's "hard".

The issue with picking fast ends up being accuracy. What I mean is that the mechanics themselves don't feel "difficult". You don't struggle to keep the pick or left hand moving fast enough. What happens is that you can seemingly do what you need to do as fast as you need to, but it's often hard to get everything lined up in the tempo.

The gradual metronome increase practicing ends up becoming about getting your groove together, not just successfully completing the motions.

I hope that makes some sense, because I think for anyone who is struggling with technique this is the most important realization to have. If it's difficult to move your pick fast doing what you are doing, what you are doing is wrong. Figure out what technical issue you are stuck on and change it.

Players who can play fast don't have extra tendons or alien hands, they're doing something DIFFERENT than what you are doing.