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Wow! He's picking from the elbow. No wonder he looks like he's having a seizure. I wonder if there are any long-term health consequences to that.
Originally Posted by Arpeggio
It seems to me you can get super-fast with a variety of techniques. Tuck Andress talks about excess tension starting to build at 10 notes per second with wrist side-to-side motion but even that equals constant sixteenth notes at 150bpm. Anchored, floating, wrist side-to-side (John McLaughlin), wrist rotating (Eddie Van Halen), circular/thumb joint (Martin Miller in the "Donna Lee" clip, above), George Benson technique obviously, I just don't think right-hand technique choice is the limiting factor for most players.
Recently I discovered I wasn't applying enough pressure with my left-hand in the problem areas of my study pieces; mentally I was "checking out" when I came to those sections, accompanied by holding tension in my body (shoulders, belly, legs, breathing). On examining this I found I would tense up my right hand to "compensate" which of course made the problem worse, and this unconscious habit had me fooled for years that my picking technique was the problem.Last edited by austin; 10-09-2015 at 01:51 AM.
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10-09-2015 01:16 AM
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Picking fast can be similar to a swing fighter jet, or just running. For faster speeds it has to change its shape or "technique" and swing its wings back. In picking fast, for me that might be something like pick slanting while elevating thumb muscle from guitar strings. If you run you lean forward more. Originally Posted by austin
It's also physical aptitude I think, not just technique. When you practise you develop blood vessels, nerves and fast twitch muscles.
Regarding tension, try this: Put both arms straight down by your sides and get someone to hold your wrists there while you lightly attempt to raise both arms sideways (like wings). The other person wont need to apply much pressure because they have more leverage (so long as your arms are straight) and you shouldn't push too hard in order to not hurt your shoulders.
After about 3 or so mins, they let go and now you have to do the opposite; keep your arms down by your sides. You should find that your arms raise out of your control because your muscles are in tension from when they were resisted. This single direction makes it impossible to control finite movements and is exactly the same thing happening in the hand when you play IMO. Too much exertion for too long and your muscles will get tense, permanently "on" and you lose control. *Not* playing for long enough periods is a good part of a practise regime IMO. I do this 10 mins on, 2 mins off, 10 mins on, 2 off etc with a GymBoss HIIT timer.
Albeit this thread is about the technical actual speed side of things, I think speed is also in the ear of the beholder, definitely taste is. Some classical pieces I play and I think "It sounds lovely at this speed" thinking that surely must be the optimum intended, but when I look at the tempo it seems so fast as to not be as enjoyable in my perception. Perhaps the piece is not as complex for the composer therefore they can absorb the notes at a different "appreciation speed" than me? Whereas myself being less familiar have a slower "appreciation speed". Perhaps this same issue applies to layman listeners in your average audience?Last edited by Arpeggio; 10-09-2015 at 05:47 AM.
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I couldn't hear the notes - not sure if that's because of the echo in the room, or his picking. Originally Posted by Arpeggio
Looks quite uncomfortable the way he is playing...
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He's mostly on the same string too. He must write excellent books because they've got loads of positive customer reviews, such as his "Guitar Adventures for Kids" book for which the last 10 customers to post reviews all did so on the same month, 12 months ago (under "Most recent customer reviews".) and nothing else since. Originally Posted by christianm77
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10-09-2015, 08:43 AM #55destinytot Guest"Be careful what you wish for." Speed matters to me, but I don't pursue it directly. I try it pursue it effectively, though - technique matters, too.Do you just not want to put in the work? Maybe you feel like you are fast enough and even though you know you could get faster, you just don't have the need to pursue it.
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I stick to what I said earlier. I aim to hear faster, and pre-hear more, not play faster. Therefore, what I play, even if it is a double time rip, will still be musical. Not knocking players who rip through lines at blinding speed. I'm knocking mindless lick playing at blind speed. There's a difference
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Great players, including great fast players, don't really "think" when they're playing - and when they're playing fast, you can be sure that it's a lot of memorised stuff. Guys. like Benson, Martino, Bruno, Oberg.... Originally Posted by Irez87
Not knocking players who rip through lines at blinding speed. I'm knocking mindless lick playing at blind speed. There's a difference
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Through polite argument, we can surface meaning...
I humbly disagree.
If these players didn't "think" at all, they would play the solo exactly the same way, every time. I do remember reading that Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins were very annoyed when record execs wanted them to play the exact solo over and over. That isn't jazz improvisation at that point. It's a stale arrangement, even for the Bean and the Brute.
Before we continue, I need to redefine "think" in the context of a performance. I ascribe "think" to be the immediate and instantaneous process that a musician utilizes to create music that values the sonic atmosphere of the stage. This instantaneous process is fueled by the musicians ability to translate sound into a musical construct of his or her own "reality" that is realized through the sonic atmosphere. This includes the band, the audience, the song being played, what the musician played before, the shape of his or her line, the dynamic intensity of said expression, influences, etc. This "reality" that the musician is creating becomes his or her own musical identity. Thinking in terms of theory is not what I am getting at. That doesn't work on the stage (it is for the shed, IMO)
Even if these giants have their pet licks, they rearrange them to make the playing more interesting.
Here is me taking the counter argument and addressing it under my framework:
Charlie Parker...
Yes, he played the same licks in the same spots on the same tunes...
This is true for many of his earlier bebop tunes...
But he was creating a new language with Diz, Davis, and Roach.
His later recording, with strings, he stretches out. Granted, these tunes are slower. But he is really reaching here, and crafting melodic story and not lick lick lick -- although, each Parker lick is a beauty in it of itself.
Let's look at another bebop icon for a moment... forget guitar for the moment
Let's look at Mr. Maggie, Howard McGhee:
Each line fluidly moves to the next, and each line is inventive. If Brownie and Diz dug Fats and Fats dug Maggie then Maggie must be the one of the jedi masters of bebop, along with the obvious.
Neatomic hipped me to Howard, so I'd love to get his take on all this, as he seems to be the hep historian of the forum (which I totally dig ). As long as we keep it from getting too Phil Shaap-y in here, you know?
But Maggie is inventive with his lines, they are risky, yet beautiful. Although I do appreciate Martino, he plays as people once said of George Coleman, too perfect. I would rather listen to Tal reach and make mistakes, it is more exciting to me. Benson... some of his stuff I really love... others... not so much. I'd rather listen to Wes or Grant Green. But that's just my opinion on players.
But my take on fast improvisation is not a subjective opinion of what I like. It is, to me, a definition. I hope I was thorough enough to illustrate my definition. If not, please help me clarify. That is how we build knowledge, no?Last edited by Irez87; 10-10-2015 at 02:28 AM.
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Nice examples. In another thread there's a quote from Sonny Rollins who pretty much said the same thing- that there's not time to think in Jazz improv. For us mere mortals, we can only guess what does go in in their minds while their blowing amazing and unique solos every time they play. I read a book called "Thinking in Jazz", and it seems that the greats simply "intuit" their way from one bar to the next after many years of building vocab to the point it simply "appears" to them in the heat of battle.
So yeah, I was just saying that "fast and mindless" can mean different things, the guitar centre shredder who plays the same line or 2 all the time, or Clifford Brown who played the same one or two thousand bits of vocab in his own solos, but always (without thinking) managed to stitch them together seamlessly in new and exciting ways. The difference is enormous of course, but not because of any active "thinking" whilst playing.
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I recorded some improvisation recently as a "draft" with the intention of re-recording once I have worked out what I did, which I find daunting. I think the word "think" could also be "feel", I was in the moment when improvising and can't see it being easy to repeat it the same way, such as the vibrato at the top end of bends and the slight pushes and pulls in times that can't be classed with notation. Originally Posted by Irez87
When improvising (after a good ear training warm up) I tend to come up with things that I don't think I could have created if writing with pencil and sheet. I suppose that could be the paradox; in terms of composition being "in the moment" works well but you're going to want to put that in a jar and preserve it.
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Adam Rogers said something to the effect of 'if you play anything fast it will be something you've played before.' Originally Posted by princeplanet
You still have to hear it though. FWIW when I play fast, I think of rhythms rather and perhaps a few significant notes in the line... To me, at fast tempos, considerations such as when you lines start and finish, and what accents you play become the main thing...Last edited by christianm77; 10-10-2015 at 06:42 AM.
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hey irez, i'll never be too dick schaap-y..i'm terrible with dates! haha
you raised lots of interesting points, i'll think on
here's a quick good bit from robert fripp
"Fripp: I think you have to learn to listen to the music. I don't know many musicians who even listen to what they're playing - it's never automatic, you always have to make an effort to use your ears. A funny thing happened in Philadelphia a few weeks ago during my Frippertronics tour. I was listening and I heard the next note I had to play. And I played it. Then I heard the next note, and I played that one. I'd been waiting 23 years for that to happen.. and it was the first time it ever happened to me. And I started to cry while I was playing.. ...and it's funny, but I had to trust it. I heard the next note, and I thought well, I'll try it. Then I heard the next one and thought well, this is shit, but I thought I should trust it. So I did. And it's a question of trusting the music to play itself."
cheers
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I got a lot of respect for Robert Fripp, but it just goes to show the gap between rock guys and jazz guys, waiting 23 years to hear what the next note should be!...... And it was a shit one!! Originally Posted by neatomic
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I always thought that Phil was black, because he has that real deep and resonate radio voice. Then I saw a picture and I was ... really surprised:
Oh Phil... You certainly know your jazz history... but... I wanna hear the music too... not just the history, man! Play more Parker and less Parker history. I knew two people who worked in WKCR, they said he was really really hard to work for. One of them can't even hear the radio name WKCR without cringing inside.
But this guy, Sharif Adbus-Salaam has to be the baddest mother f'er on the airwaves of all that is jazz radio. Get those wanna be's off that Real Jazz bs and put on Sharif. I can't stand the Real Jazz guys with their Real Jazz fake inflection whenever they say the radio station (makes me think of elevator music). It's a shame, because they play some great cuts. Anyway, Sharif knows, he sounds as real as the sun rising in the morning, and he plays the illest shite. I mean, listen to the resonance of that voice. His voice overs sound like a baritone sax solo. The way he phrases he sentences, with those artful gaps. One day I will transcribe his voice over and turn it into a musical piece. Here's a listen:
I think we need to start a thread on our favorite and least favorite radio hosts. I am a WKCR junkie. By the way HAPPY BIRTHDAY THELONIOUS (screaming like Phil). I like to think of Monk as a brother. We are both well read, and extremely eccentric, and often misunderstood. I just can't pull off those bad ass hats like Monk did
Last edited by Irez87; 10-10-2015 at 01:13 PM.
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I listen to KCR a lot, too. I'm listening to the Monk Birthday Tribute, and they have some college kid saying Charlie Roos instead of Charlie Rouse, but who cares; they play entire LPs with barely any interruptions.
Phil Schaap has been on the 'jazz is dying out' kick lately. He went on a one man strike a few months ago, because he thought jazz was being squeezed out by other programming.
If you're a jazz legend, he'll treat you like you're a god. My late friend, the clarinet/sax player Aaron Sachs, was on his show discussing the genesis of the "Donna Lee" line, and he was treated very well. The same thing with another friend of mine, the late clarinetist, Joe Dixon. They played a recording we did together, and Phil pronounced my name correctly- a rare occurrence.
However, if you're not a jazz legend, he can be very weird. One horn player had Phil over for dinner at his apt., and PS started blaring out to the guy and his wife, "You are nothing without me! I can make you and I can break you!"
The guy's wife couldn't take it anymore ,and told him to leave. When he wouldn't leave, she and her husband pushed him out the door!
Another well-known guitar player told me he played a concert that PS had something to do with, and Phil was complimenting him all night.
The next day he ran into PS in front of Columbia, and Phil ignored him when he said hello to him. He stepped in front of him and said, "Phil, don't you remember me from last night? You kept telling me how great I sounded."
Phil just walked right through him, as if he wasn't there!
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Charlie Roos... oh no! That dj job is no joke, it's hard stuff. I couldn't do it, so I'll give the kid a break. Wait, can I call students in college kids? I'm 29. Is that allowed?
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Sometimes they play a record and if it skips, they won't catch it for five minutes. It just keeps repeating over and over 'like a broken record', while they're probably busy checking their facebook page.
One guy just identified Hank Jones as the guitar player on a cut he played!
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well in wkcrs defense..they have a core of heavyweights...and then, since it is a college radio station..they have students who do their bit..often badly...but it's a school!
schaap has reason to worry..things change...history matters little nowadays..one day there very well might be no jazz on wkcr..or no wkcr..so..fight the power phil!
cheers
and of course he's weird..ever met a record nerd that wasn't??..haha
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Hey, Neatomic, I'm offended, I'm not weird...
**girlfriend rolls eyes and looks the other way**
... Okay, maybe a little weird
... Okay, okay, maybe a lot weird
I blame it on the practice room
A lot of time in the shed makes you a little odd in the head
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cabin fever!!..and the cabins made of rosewood, ebony and solid spruce!!...with maple sides
haha
cheers
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genius jimmy raney in march 1977 issue of Guitar Player magazine-
"Your melodic gifts really come out when you're playin' a ballad. It's one good way to separate the artist from the bullshit artist. Musicians who can play a million notes and run all over the guitar and sound very impressive are playing their practiced patterns. Give them a slow ballad and then see what their melodies are like. Slowed down a lot of people sound dull and boring."
cheers
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Raney's playing was so devoid of BS, he'd make whomever he was playing with sound like a joker.
I saw him live once with another guitarist whom I previously thought was a very good player. After a night of just running fast patterns while Raney played beautiful tasteful lines, I lost all respect for the other guitarist.
He did this with a few guitarists I had previously respected. There should have been a warning issued- if you don't want to show how shallow your playing is, don't play with Jimmy Raney.
From the interviews I've read with him, people that studied with him, and speaking with him during the breaks, he didn't have much respect for too many other players.
He had good things to say about Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, Ed Bickert and Tal Farlow (his playing in the 50s).
Raney's playing on fast tempos was the same as his playing on slow and medium tempos. When they heard a recording of one of his up tempo things, one guy said he thought the turntable was at 45rpm instead of 33&1/3!
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I've read that Jimmy played with highish action... and he had hand problems later in life. So every note was a little painful. Therefore, every note counted toward a story he was trying to tell on his guitar. I love Jimmy's playing...
Really wish they recorded my last jam session, cause I did an ode to his interplay stuff with Bob Brookmeyer last session. The whole, interweaving solos concept. Jimmy's lines were exquisite, and so was his taste. His stuff with Zoller is really beautiful, Jim & I. If I had a good mic, I would record some of that album and share it here.
Jimmy Raney and Jim Hall are the reasons I got that AZ 48 pup. Along with Johnny Smith and Wes Montgomery, they are in my top 4 for inspiration. They all demonstrate that ain't no one got time for bullshite lines. It's all about the beauty of the line, no matter the tempo. That's why I say, I want to hear faster, not play faster. That was after years of thinking that pure speed was king. Nooooope!
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I have just read that Allan Holdsworth's favourite guitarist is Jimmy Raney. Make of that what you will....
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You got good taste for a NYC Dept. of Ed. employee. Originally Posted by Irez87
I'll let you have the day off tomorrow.
I never heard that he had hand problems, just hearing problems. He could still burn when he had to, even toward the end. Farlow lost his chops after the 50s...
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