Blown away by Ida Presti---and her unconventional technique--possible jazz use?

[ronjazz]

"anybody can say anything."

As fumblefingers never fails to prove.

[ronjazz]

My reading skills are fine, as are my arguments.

You said it in the OP, you're no maven of classical guitar. Comparing a great player of same to SRV sealed it.

if you like to twist your hand while playing then suit yourself.

If you like to twist everybody else's words and intentions, then suit yourself. You're still a reactionary, narrow-minded fool pontificating from a position of ignorance on the subject of classical guitar. Your arguments are puerile and, as the evidence shows, easily destroyed, since they are based on your narrow opinions, not facts. And the contradictions sprinkled throughout your screeds are hilarious.

[fumblefingers]

If you like to twist everybody else's words and intentions, then suit yourself. You're still a reactionary, narrow-minded fool pontificating from a position of ignorance on the subject of classical guitar. Your arguments are puerile and, as the evidence shows, easily destroyed, since they are based on your narrow opinions, not facts. And the contradictions sprinkled throughout your screeds are hilarious.

Manopause can be an emotional time.

[fumblefingers]

so, since there has been a lot of ill willed bickering as of late, i will offer this as a less opinionated update relative to my earlier posts.


1. Presti was a great player.

2. Her right hand technique and the angle of the wrist have fallen out of favor in the classical guitar world. The reason is because it leads to overuse injury, specifically tendinitis.

3. Today's classical guitar world is a lot different than it was in the 1940s - 1960s. There are so many players and so many competitions. There are duos and trios and quartets, etc. She and Lagoya deserve a heck of a lot of credit for that. But it also means that people practice fiendishly in order to play at a competitive level. Practicing her right hand technique for a few bars is one thing, but using it as a mainstay technique is quite another.

4. Today a straighter wrist position is used. Some believe that shorter nails are advised as well. The famous guitar instruction book by the late Frederick M. Noad had the cover photo changed and displays a straighter right wrist. (see third vs. fourth edition)

Caveat emptor.

[goldenwave77]

so, since there has been a lot of ill willed bickering as of late, i will offer this as a less opinionated update relative to my earlier posts.


1. Presti was a great player.

2. Her right hand technique and the angle of the wrist have fallen out of favor in the classical guitar world. The reason is because it leads to overuse injury, specifically tendinitis.

3. Today's classical guitar world is a lot different than it was in the 1940s - 1960s. There are so many players and so many competitions. There are duos and trios and quartets, etc. She and Lagoya deserve a heck of a lot of credit for that. But it also means that people practice fiendishly in order to play at a competitive level. Practicing her right hand technique for a few bars is one thing, but using it as a mainstay technique is quite another.

4. Today a straighter wrist position is used. Some believe that shorter nails are advised as well. The famous guitar instruction book by the late Frederick M. Noad had the cover photo changed and displays a straighter right wrist. (see third vs. fourth edition)

Caveat emptor.

These are reasonable points.

I think everyone agrees she was a great player.

I will concede, and noted originally that her technique was unconventional, and perhaps used by 5% of classical players. I think Aaron Shearer had his problems with the bent wrist technique that he picked up from Segovia, I believe. Alice Arzt I don't think had issues, but certainly some players might.

Re: point #3, this seems reasonable. Coming out of the 30's and a bitter civil war in Spain, followed by WW II, could not have been favorable for high culture in general. Materials were rationed, gasoline was restricted and travel was curtailed, etc, etc. The talent pool today is probably deeper, just as it is on the pro golf tour.

Point #4 seems reasonable, given that Presti's bent hand technique, is a "minority view".

But, I was coming at this from a different perspective---the jazz guitarist who uses fingerstyle, as probably an occasional and intermittent thing. I guess Earl Klugh could be considered a fingerstyle jazz guitarist, but I almost think of him as more classical-influenced, with maybe some pop overlay, rather than a hardcore jazz guy, a la Wes M, or Joe P., or Jim H., or Russell Malone, etc, etc. I think a lot of these players use hybrid techniques, or revert to pick use when they are not doing chordal stuff, but yes I agree, that if one were practicing 8 hr.'s a day, the Presti technique might be problematic.

It is just that I found that her "opening the jar technique" (giving a clockwise twist, as the fingers pull away) on making chords ring out, to be particularly forceful and effective, even without the use of the right side of the nail that she employed.

[destinytot]

But, I was coming at this from a different perspective---the jazz guitarist who uses fingerstyle, as probably an occasional and intermittent thing. I guess Earl Klugh could be considered a fingerstyle jazz guitarist, but I almost think of him as more classical-influenced, with maybe some pop overlay, rather than a hardcore jazz guy, a la Wes M, or Joe P., or Jim H., or Russell Malone, etc, etc. I think a lot of these players use hybrid techniques, or revert to pick use when they are not doing chordal stuff, but yes I agree, that if one were practicing 8 hr.'s a day, the Presti technique might be problematic.

It is just that I found that her "opening the jar technique" (giving a clockwise twist, as the fingers pull away) on making chords ring out, to be particularly forceful and effective, even without the use of the right side of the nail that she employed.

I like the technique a lot.

[mad dog]

I have no horse in this particular race. But it sure is an interesting discussion.

A few things I learned from two years of instruction long ago, from two of Manuel Barrueco's students:

• My own knowledge of and assumptions about classical guitar proved rather superficial early on. Segovia loomed impossibly large in the public eye even then (saw him in the 80s). So to me, he was classical guitar. But the musical world - classical guitar - had moved on. My impression was that Segovia's main credit was and would always be his popularization of the genre, how he created awareness, how he inspired composers to write and arrange for the instrument. Musically, and in terms of technique, many players had moved beyond his era and were not looking back.

• Innovations in technique were and will always be important, but technique alone is subordinate to musical thought and imagination. I lacked all these things, but could see and hear the difference over time. Studying classical guitar was my first and only exposure to classical training, so I'm probably stating something really obvious here. Sterling technique seems to be what all this practice is about. In fact, it's a very high hurdle, but only the first one. What music is this technique serving, and how? Musical greatness is accorded and cherished for much more than technique.

• The tension between technical power/innovation and interpretive ability - musicality - is a source of endless renewal. There is no one best anything. Rather many different bests. You pick a goal or several and aspire towards it. Small variations in technique tend to rationalize and sort out over time. Preferences change in terms of musical expression also. Best is a moving target.

Interestingly enough, SRV was coming on strong in the years I studied. He himself recognized the dark side of his own abilities and popularity. To generations of players, SRV is the blues. He was far more humble and knowledgeable than that. Stevie knew exactly who he was and where he'd come from, and wanted only to continue traditions his own way. Calling any other musician "the SRV of [fill in the blank]" strikes me as neither a tribute to him nor necessarily a great compliment to anyone.

Just my opinion of course. Great topic!
MD

[EllissonWatson]

Ida Presti are blown away?

[Robertkoa]

Wow !
I had read long ago and remember her name being mentioned but knew nothing about her.

Your point about probably the most gifted to ever pick up a Guitar has a lot of merit.

She reminds me technically of John Williams but is more aggressive- she had the fire of the great Flamenco Players but
full Classical Technique plus.

I just listened to a direct to tape of her at 13 years old.
Ferocious, in perfect time and adding haunting Vibrato on a Paganini Piece.

History has really not given her Credit- weird.

You can hear her amazing chops on the trills and grace notes and she never seems at the edge of her ability but she was a really emotional deep Virtuoso at 13 and before- absolutely amazing.

I also agree ..that despite amazing ability
some Classical Guitarists sound a little boring.
And this Lady had a ' dangerous ' quality in a good way - I am going to listen to more of her.
She died young - what a shame- in Rochester NY...if she had lived 20 more years we would have seen her on TV and
Musicians and non musicians would have been jaw dropped....

Was she the Paganini of the Guitar ?
A good case could be made- right ?

[Robertkoa]

Presti was amazing ...
But I don't understand the 'unconventional'
Part of her Technique.

Arszt's Video ( when she finally hits a few notes) shows the Contact Point is the left side of Fingers I and M= conventional.

Her and Presti's hand appear to be cocked more slightly to Right from Player POV or standing behind her - compared to some Classical Players but Flamencists like Paco De Lucia appeared to cock Right Hand more to his right also .

Not vastly unconventional unless I am missing something here.

One amazing thing about Presti is that listening to her blistering Tremelo and other Figures and Playing...her Rhythms and sense of Time were more aggressive and 'forward ' in the Beat and she was not at the edge of her Technique as we hear her...there was more left in the tank..a true Virtuoso.

John Williams is like this - but less aggressive Time feel and less 'dangerous 'sounding to my ears.

I agree with Presti as one of the and probably the most Gifted Person ever to play the ( Classical !) Guitar like that at 12 or 13 years old......
Probably the most Gifted Guitarist ever for the' Child Prodigy' Crown on Guitar of any type.