The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 71
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I'm not really a beginner considering my guitar learning experience over the last 10 years but I feel like the beginner. Not sure you can help me with this but maybe someone will have an idea what to do about it.

    I've been practicing over last 10 years almost without breaks, at least 1 hour a day except weekends but often 2 hours and longer. Ive learned the CAGED scale patterns, arpeggio patterns, Drop2 and Drop3 chords, triads in all iversions, three note shell chords and some other stuff. I know the fingerboard well enough to name the notes and intervals.
    Oh, I started with guitar late, when I was 35 if it matters.

    My problem is that with all that knowledge that I engraved into my memory I can't apply it successfully: I experience serious problems with finger coordination and precision.

    Just to illustrate what I mean here is how it feels to me: whenever I pick up my guitar the next day it feels like a foreign instrument to me. If someone watched me for the first 20 minutes of my "warming up" they would think I'm a beginner with maybe 1 year experience.
    However I've seen many people with 1 year guitar experience who were light years ahead of me in terms of finger coordination and precision. Most people who played for 5 years can pickup a guitar and just play it - I can't.

    What exactly wrong with my finger coordination and precision: I can't just pickup guitar and play. As I said, it feels like a foreign instrument to me for the first 30 minutes of 1-2-3-4 and other stuff (scales, arps, etc.) that I use to warm up - very slowly with great concentration. Often it takes me over 40 minutes to get into some useable shape.
    However even then I don't feel like playing with ease: for some reason I have to be very careful and if I'm not I'm missing strings either with single lines or in chords.

    If I just pickup guitar without warming up for 30 minutes and try to play something I will miss strings - literally.

    One more thing: recently I began to practice without looking at the fretboard directly but just watching it from the side so I can still see the fingerboard plane and frets locations.

    Anyway, I think there is no excuse for picking up a guitar after 10 years of practice and not being able to play it with confidence. Maybe I've improved since my first two years but I feel like it's not enough of imrovement to justify all the hard time spent.

    Is it because I'm so slow a learner or maybe because I started so late?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Well, actually i consider warming up crucial.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Your not mental but you should be.Meditation, imagination,Ponder, Mental imagery,visualize.Just before bed or when it is possible to do so.Create an atmosphere of silence maybe dim lights, if any.Dedicate a 1/2 hr or so of time where thats all that exist.Give it a month.The training of an athlete is crazy more effort and time then the actual event.Martial arts uses this remember Bruce Lee said he doesn't worry about the opponent that can do a thousand moves but the guy that does one move a thousand times.Food for thought.I am sooo mental. With that thought i concure whole heartedly with Mr.B

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    I also second Mr. Beaumont on that. It is what it is. If you need to warm up, then warm up. I certainly do, after over 30 years of playing. Talk to a brass player sometime about all the stuff they go through with their chops.

    Being hard on yourself probably won't help. Instead of focusing on everything you "should" be able to do (or "shouldn't" have to do as it were), when there is a problem, maybe try to look at it with curiosity instead. Problems and solutions may seem to continually flow one into the other. Don't "should" on yourself.

    If you don't already know it, Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery is a very popular book that's helped many, including me.

    Matt
    Last edited by MattC; 04-02-2015 at 06:38 PM.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I used to feel this way.

    I highly recommend checking out Jamie Andreas' "The Correct Principles of Guitar Practice." Yes, it's goofy, and, yes, not everything in it is 100% perfect, but I bet if you read it some serious light-bulbs will go off.

    I would wager a lot that your problems are rooted in not having a systematic way of approaching the physical task of playing the instrument. You've put in your time in on learning vocabulary, on having an understanding of the instrument, some basic theory, etc., but I bet you have some serious big holes and flows in the basic way that you approach things like:

    - holding the instrument
    - how you pick a note (with pick or fingers)
    - how you fret a note
    - how you practice those skills

    That book is a good source for starting to think about these things. Once you get the basics more under control you get rid of the confusion and the inconsistency. You start to know what to do, and how to make it happen.

    There are other good books. If Principles seems to weird and snake-oily (which is definitely is at times) then check out Aaron Shearer's "Learning the Classic Guitar" series. Superior in many ways, but more focused exclusively on classical guitar.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    My experience working with hundreds of students over the years is that some people do learn faster or slower than others. I have had people with serious coordination issues and others don't have any such issues and I can show them something 1 time and they got it. There is no denying that there are significant differences in the learning speeds and capabilities of individuals. We generically call it "talent", which is a term that is hard to define clearly sometimes, and some people even reject that it exists. Some think that the amount of practice is the most important thing, I agree it is important, but I am 100% sure there is such a thing as "talent" or if you want call it slower and faster learners. I've had students that clearly learned 2x-4x more with the same amount of practice that someone else had. As Mr. B says warming up is important, but I don't think that explains your problem. I mean I can (and I think most long term players can) pick up a guitar after not having played for a week and pop off some very difficult stuff, with perhaps some minor flub here and there, but not to the level that you are describing.

    If your playing for your own personal enjoyment, than it doesn't matter really if you are a fast learner or not. You're not competing with anyone but yourself. Your just doing it for your own enjoyment and challenge. If you had dreams of being a professional musician, than it might better for someone to be honest with you and tell you, yes this is a serious problem that could prohibit you from achieving that goal.

    One thing that I'm wondering is if you are ever getting anything into muscle memory, i.e. have you been able to play a solo or chord progression for a tune from beginning to end using muscle memory? In other words without thinking about it, and able to consistently able to do so? This would also generally mean you'd be able to pick up the instrument any day and play it 98% correct, immediately. I think one problem people fall in to is practicing a lot of different things, but they never put anything firmly into muscle memory, which is critical. "Muscle memory" means you practice it so much that you can just play it without thinking about it, and even without a warm up typically. The "without thinking about it" part is critical. I've found some students have a tendency to over think when they are playing, and I have to even tell them "stop thinking so much, use your muscle memory". And then they instantly start playing better for a few mins, and then they go back to over thinking ;o). It's kind of a Zen thing. You have to learn to trust yourself and your hands can often do the job without YOU directing them consciously. As soon as you start analyzing and calculating what your hands should be doing it all goes to #$#$. It's kind of like if you are walking and you get self conscious about it because there's an attractive person walking straight at you, and then you trip on your own feet. I have one student who has been coming to lessons for like 7 years and he is similar to you, the first 20 mins of the lesson he seems to forgotten everything he knows, and then by the end he can finally play again. So one thing I've been focusing on with him is trying to get him to develop his muscle memory better by simply more repetition and looping just 1 or 2 bars of the pieces he is working on. I've also tried to explain to him there is a difference between learning something new mode and performance mode. In LSNM you have no choice but to think about what your fingers and hands are doing and what notes and timing you're playing. But you need to spend an equal amount of time in performance mode where you turn off the thinking, the analyzer and the critic and just play from muscle memory, ideally also with expression and feeling. But sometimes people can't even get over that hump of being able to play stuff from muscle memory and that is the first step before you can really own it and play it with full expression. Another great way to work on this is assuming you have a scale memorized, like say the pentatonic, just improvise and play by ear for long periods of time. Back in the old days I could go for 3+ hours non-stop just working the pentatonic scale, and man it really helped me develop an ability to get into the "flow" as well as some good ears. Don't think about modes or keys or enclosures or anything, you just play by ear. This really can help get the muscle memory working, as well as the ears.

    Another possible factor is how good or bad you are at staying mentally focused. If you find your mind wandering constantly when practicing this can cause excess mistakes. The way you describe your first 30 mins of practicing sucking, and then you get better, seems to echo the mental focus problem. Because it sounds like your using the first 30 mins to just get yourself focused. Not that the 30 initial minutes of practice is teaching you how to play the guitar. It's just become your ritual for getting into the right mind set, and then you can play. One thing that could help with this is do some simple breath focus meditation for 30 mins before you even pick up the guitar to help you clear your mind and get focused. Getting that out of the way before you pick up the guitar will probably make you feel better and more confident when you do pick the instrument up and can get right into it.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Wasn't Aaron Shearer the fellow who had to give up playing guitar because of crippling carpal tunnel syndrome?! IF this is the guy I'm thinking of, I might think twice about his recommendations. (Though probably the casual player is not going to play enough for this to become an issue.)

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=ecj;517044]
    I highly recommend checking out Jamie Andreas' "The Correct Principles of Guitar Practice." Yes, it's goofy, and, yes, not everything in it is 100% perfect, but I bet if you read it some serious light-bulbs will go off.


    Yeah -- this book is excellent. In fact, if the book isn't enough, maybe a lesson or 2 with her would do the trick.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    My fingering woes diminished greatly when I started anchoring properly. If the guitar feels good one day and like a foreign body the next----and hey, I know that feeling because I had it too, and for a lot longer than I care to recall---it's because you're not approaching it the same way all the time. You need to notice what you're doing when it "feels so right" and get back to that whenever you notice that it starts to feel wrong.

    If your approach is inconsistent, your results will be too. (I know this from painful, embarrassing experience.) The good news is, it can be fixed. The hard news is, you have to do the fixing: no one else can do it for you, though they might be able to pass along some advice you find helpful... Good luck! Keep at it.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    My experience working with hundreds of students over the years is that some people do learn faster or slower than others. ...
    I've re-read your post several times and I can't say enough how great and to the point it is.
    Thank you very much!
    I don't think you need my answers to your questions - I understand they are the questions I need to ask myself - right?
    Lots of food for thought is what you gave me.
    Last edited by VKat; 04-03-2015 at 02:26 PM.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    I used to feel this way.

    I highly recommend checking out Jamie Andreas' "The Correct Principles of Guitar Practice." Yes, it's goofy, and, yes, not everything in it is 100% perfect, but I bet if you read it some serious light-bulbs will go off. ...
    Yes, I heard about her (him) and saw that book. In fact I have it somewhere ;-)
    It's interesting how different people review it: some say it's useful, others say it's a bunch of obvious things advised.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Wasn't Aaron Shearer the fellow who had to give up playing guitar because of crippling carpal tunnel syndrome?! IF this is the guy I'm thinking of, I might think twice about his recommendations. (Though probably the casual player is not going to play enough for this to become an issue.)
    Shearer developed his method after the carpal tunnel situation as a reaction to all the mistakes he'd made in his career. Sometimes failure teaches you more than success, and I think if you've ever seen the books it's pretty clear that they're the best guitar pedagogy out there. It's a shame he didn't use a pick. Covers all the ground of mechanics, reading, solfege, memorization, etc. Just fantastic books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vkat
    Yes, I heard about her (him) and saw that book. In fact I have it somewhere ;-)
    It's interesting how different people review it: some say it's useful, others say it's a bunch of obvious things advised.


    It's definitely polarizing. I think it's worth a read through (can easily be digested in a week) to see if you're one of the ones who will get something out of it. I definitely was.

    Jamie defines practice as, "Knowing the right thing to do and then doing it." Guitar players tend to struggle mightily with the first part (and incidentally for pick-based players the weakest part of the book imo is that Jamie doesn't seem to really know how to use a pick like the best players). The second part is easier once you've established the first, and comes down to hard work.

    If you never know what the right thing is to do, you can practice forever and still suck. I think some people develop the right mechanics early on and never have to think that much about it, but the book is not for them.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    I think one problem people fall in to is practicing a lot of different things, but they never put anything firmly into muscle memory, which is critical. "Muscle memory" means you practice it so much that you can just play it without thinking about it, and even without a warm up typically. The "without thinking about it" part is critical.
    +1 I was in the same boat until I started working more on muscle (or finger) memory. I would suggest picking out two or three licks that you like and repeat them until they become automatic for you. In the past I thought that repeating a passage until I could play it correctly was adequate but I was wrong. You have to repeat it until you can't play it wrong (read that in a quote somewhere). And make sure to review it often day after day until you have it down cold. You should find that you can pick up your guitar and whip it off without a problem. This is also useful when you go into a guitar center to try out a guitar. I used to come up blank but now I have a few licks that I can run off easily.

    I also found the comments about analyzing what your hands are doing to be very accurate. There have been a few occasions in the past on stage where my attention briefly focused on admiring what my fingers were doing and this distraction always broke the flow and caused problems for me.
    Last edited by emoshurchak; 04-03-2015 at 02:54 PM.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    ...

    Jamie defines practice as, "Knowing the right thing to do and then doing it." Guitar players tend to struggle mightily with the first part (and incidentally for pick-based players the weakest part of the book imo is that Jamie doesn't seem to really know how to use a pick like the best players). The second part is easier once you've established the first, and comes down to hard work.

    If you never know what the right thing is to do, you can practice forever and still suck. I think some people develop the right mechanics early on and never have to think that much about it, but the book is not for them.
    What I solidly remember from reading one of the Jamie's online articles is deviding the guitar players into two categories: the greats ones who don't need to think about the technique - it just comes to them naturally (and I have to agree) and the rest - who need to develop technique with varying degree of success. S'he said s'he was one of those from the second category - in my opinion, maybe being on the better side of it.

    I guess part of my problem is that I cannot fully admit that I may be on the lower end of the second category. I always think that some day something "clicks" and I'll shred away and no one can stop me. It doesn't work :-)
    I don't mean I think about it too much - it's just a matter of attitude.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by VKat
    What I solidly remember from reading one of the Jamie's online articles is deviding the guitar players into two categories: the greats ones who don't need to think about the technique - it just comes to them naturally (and I have to agree) and the rest - who need to develop technique with varying degree of success. S'he said s'he was one of those from the second category - in my opinion, maybe being on the better side of it.

    I guess part of my problem is that I cannot fully admit that I may be on the lower end of the second category. I always think that some day something "clicks" and I'll shred away and no one can stop me. It doesn't work :-)
    I don't mean I think about it too much - it's just a matter of attitude.
    The first step is admitting that you have a problem :-)

  17. #16
    This applies to me 100%! I just was thinking about the Guitarzen's great post and I could clearly see myself in all those problematic areas he depicted so well.

    I've realized that I can't just play something out of the blue which I always expect to happen one day. I should admit - I have never commited into my memory something that would serve as a basis of my 'at the moment' playing material. I know a bunch of chord progressions that I need to think of before I can play them and I don't know any arrangement.

    That's because I always 'live for the moment' (sorry can't find a better definition in English off hand) - meaning that today I'm excited by one thing and tomorrow by another one (in guitar playing and life in general) and I can't stay on one thing for long enough. Also for some reason and that's also a part of my personality as soon I as "I get something" in guitar playing I'm switching to a new thing because I fear that if stay on one thing (exercise, chord progression, lick, scale, etc.) I'm risking to loose all other things.
    As a result I go in circles. So insrtead of learning something cold from the beginning to the end I return to that thing after some time and pick it up from where I left it but often with some variations thus partially discarding the somewhat already familiar basis. I'm becoming better at it each new revolution but it doesn't satisfy me. Ain't satisfied! :-)
    Well, don't all guitar players go in circles to some degree or another?
    Life goes in circles as a general rule but some get into right circles I guess and others into not so right ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by emoshurchak
    +1 I was in the same boat until I started working more on muscle (or finger) memory. I would suggest picking out two or three licks that you like and repeat them until they become automatic for you. In the past I thought that repeating a passage until I could play it correctly was adequate but I was wrong. You have to repeat it until you can't play it wrong (read that in a quote somewhere). And make sure to review it often day after day until you have it down cold. You should find that you can pick up your guitar and whip it off without a problem. This is also useful when you go into a guitar center to try out a guitar. I used to come up blank but now I have a few licks that I can run off easily.

    I also found the comments about analyzing what your hands are doing to be very accurate. There have been a few occasions in the past on stage where my attention briefly focused on admiring what my fingers were doing and this distraction always broke the flow and caused problems for me.
    Last edited by VKat; 04-03-2015 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    The first step is admitting that you have a problem :-)
    That's what I started this thread from! :-)

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by VKat
    This applies to me 100%! I just was thinking about the Guitarzen's great post and I could clearly see myself in all those problematic areas he depicted so well.

    I've realized that I can't just play something out of the blue which I always expect to happen one day. I should admit - I have never commited into my memory something that would serve as a basis of my 'at the moment' playing material. I know a bunch of chord progressions that I need to think of before I can play them and I don't know any arrangement.

    That's because I always 'live for the moment' (sorry can't find a better definition in English off hand) - meaning that today I'm excited by one thing and tomorrow by another one (in guitar playing and life in general) and I can't stay on one thing for long enough. Also for some reason and that's also a part of my personality as soon I as "I get something" in guitar playing I'm switching to a new thing because I fear that if stay on one thing (exercise, chord progression, lick, scale, etc.) I'm risking to loose all other things.
    As a result I go in circles. So insrtead of learning something cold from the beginning to the end I return to that thing after some time and pick it up from where I left it but often with some variations thus partially discarding the somewhat already familiar basis. I'm becoming better at it each new revolution but it doesn't satisfy me. Ain't satisfied! :-)
    Well, don't all guitar players go in circles to some degree or another?
    Life goes in circles as a general rule but some get into right circles I guess and others into not so right ones.
    VKat,
    If you continue doing what you're doing the way you've been doing it, you may never be able to play anything. What you've done thus far hasn't worked, so it's time to do something that DOES work.

    You can't play "something out of the blue" because you have nothing to play. Knowing a "bunch of progressions that you need to think of before you play them" isn't helping you either.

    The sad, but true, fact is that The Universe is not going to magically download music into your brain and hands so that you can somehow play anything you want to.

    Learning to play any kind of music on guitar really well requires discipline and commitment. As I've said in other posts, learning to play jazz or any other type of music requires that you learn the repertoire. Songs, songs, songs! Just like rock or blues or country. You learn the songs, the chords AND the melodies. When you hear another guitarist sit down and play something wonderful "off the top of his head" you can bet that he (or she) is playing something that's based on a song.

    You need to have A PLAN and you need to WORK THE PLAN. Learn to play songs first. Learn to play the chords and sing the words. If you can't sing, sing anyway or hum or whistle. Then learn to play the melody. When you practice your scales, arpeggios, exercises and, yes, songs, focus on the details of what you're doing. Be conscious and in the moment. "God is in the details"-Ludwig Mies van der Rohe.

    If you are "going in circles", you are not moving forward. If you're afraid of losing touch with your other interests, you will need to learn to budget your time. That requires discipline. It always come back to discipline.

    Learning to play well isn't easy but it can be fun. You have to love what you're doing, especially practicing. Every good musician that I've ever met loved to practice. They loved the process and they embraced it.

    Focus on learning to play music. Songs. The more comfortable you become with the songs, the easier it will become to figure out what your next step will be to learn to play the way you really want to play.

    I've posted this before and I don't know who said it but....."Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong".

    It takes a plan and it takes commitment.

    Regards,
    Jerome

  20. #19
    Thanks Jerome! Absolutely right - I need just that what you say - the discipline, a plan and the commitment. The only thing I still haven't figured out is how to implement all these components in respect to guitar (and I confess to many other things in my life).
    I'm a very moody person and my mind is always wandering: what I consider a good plan and the commitment today becomes 'it's not so important' tomorrow. Tomorrow I always have a different commintment and a better plan - if you know what I mean.
    I've always lacked discipline throughout my life: I was even dismissed from a military high school because of that.

    Without what you prescribe me in your critical message (which is very honest) I admit I won't progress. I need to come up with some self-punishment procedure if I don't follow my original plan. However it's very difficult for me: I never know which of my plans is original! :-)

    Believe me - I often even write down what I think is a good guitar learning plan and guess what? - The next day I look at it I think: 'Well, what is so special about it?'. And... I right another plan!

    Having said all that I still expect you to encourage me in some way - because you see how perseverant I'm even if
    I always go in the wrong direction.

    Anyway - what should I do to make myself stay at one subject until it's mastered? Are there any self-control methods applicable specifically to guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    VKat,
    If you continue doing what you're doing the way you've been doing it, you may never be able to play anything. What you've done thus far hasn't worked, so it's time to do something that DOES work.

    You can't play "something out of the blue" because you have nothing to play. Knowing a "bunch of progressions that you need to think of before you play them" isn't helping you either.

    The sad, but true, fact is that The Universe is not going to magically download music into your brain and hands so that you can somehow play anything you want to.

    Learning to play any kind of music on guitar really well requires discipline and commitment. As I've said in other posts, learning to play jazz or any other type of music requires that you learn the repertoire. Songs, songs, songs! Just like rock or blues or country. You learn the songs, the chords AND the melodies. When you hear another guitarist sit down and play something wonderful "off the top of his head" you can bet that he (or she) is playing something that's based on a song.

    You need to have A PLAN and you need to WORK THE PLAN. Learn to play songs first. Learn to play the chords and sing the words. If you can't sing, sing anyway or hum or whistle. Then learn to play the melody. When you practice your scales, arpeggios, exercises and, yes, songs, focus on the details of what you're doing. Be conscious and in the moment. "God is in the details"-Ludwig Mies van der Rohe.

    If you are "going in circles", you are not moving forward. If you're afraid of losing touch with your other interests, you will need to learn to budget your time. That requires discipline. It always come back to discipline.

    Learning to play well isn't easy but it can be fun. You have to love what you're doing, especially practicing. Every good musician that I've ever met loved to practice. They loved the process and they embraced it.

    Focus on learning to play music. Songs. The more comfortable you become with the songs, the easier it will become to figure out what your next step will be to learn to play the way you really want to play.

    I've posted this before and I don't know who said it but....."Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong".

    It takes a plan and it takes commitment.

    Regards,
    Jerome
    Last edited by VKat; 04-04-2015 at 03:58 PM.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Learn 2 or 3 fairly easy tunes which you like, and whenever you pick up the guitar, always start by playing those melodies. Take some of your favourite phrases (or learn a few favourite licks from your favourite player) - again pick the simpler ones, and always play those first when you pick up the guitar.

    I always pick up the guitar and without thinking, I sort of noodle around with the same core set of melodies and licks for a few minutes or longer. It'll often be a tune I know inside out, like Autumn Leaves, or a blues, and it will generally be my 'favourite' phrases. After a while, my hands warm up, and then I start moving onto other things. Or I might find I'm having enough fun already so I just keep improvising and messing about with the same ideas I started with.

    Because of this consistent approach, I find I can play these things more or less immediately.

    I think it's good for your technique and confidence to warm up with simple familiar things each time, before you progress to the latest things you're working on.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by VKat

    I'm a very moody person and my mind is always wandering: what I consider a good plan and the commitment today becomes 'it's not so important' tomorrow. Tomorrow I always have a different commintment and a better plan - if you know what I mean.
    I've always lacked discipline throughout my life: I was even dismissed from a military high school because of that.

    Without what you prescribe me in your critical message (which is very honest) I admit I won't progress. I need to come up with some self-punishment procedure if I don't follow my original plan. However it's very difficult for me: I never know which of my plans is original! :-)

    Believe me - I often even write down what I think is a good guitar learning plan and guess what? - The next day I look at it I think: 'Well, what is so special about it?'. And... I right another plan!

    Having said all that I still expect you to encourage me in some way - because you see how perseverant I'm even if
    I always go in the wrong direction.

    Anyway - what should I do to make myself stay at one subject until it's mastered? Are there any self-control methods applicable specifically to guitar?
    I really identify with your problem. I don't like having a plan, and my practice is all over the place. I basically work on whatever I feel like. I make plans and then abandon them on a regular basis.

    The one thing that makes a difference for me is having an external commitment. If I take a class or play in a group, then I work on whatever I'm told to work on. I'm still unfocused and change my mind every day, but the external pressure of a performance situation or a test makes me concentrate on songs or skills long enough to get better at them.

    So that's my suggestion. Personally, I don't like private lessons that much. But you might. I love classes though, and I've played in an ensemble for a while. It's a good level for me and has helped me so much in terms of focus and repetition. I looked around for a while to find a good fit though.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by East to Wes
    I really identify with your problem. I don't like having a plan, and my practice is all over the place. I basically work on whatever I feel like. I make plans and then abandon them on a regular basis.

    The one thing that makes a difference for me is having an external commitment. If I take a class or play in a group, then I work on whatever I'm told to work on. I'm still unfocused and change my mind every day, but the external pressure of a performance situation or a test makes me concentrate on songs or skills long enough to get better at them.

    So that's my suggestion. Personally, I don't like private lessons that much. But you might. I love classes though, and I've played in an ensemble for a while. It's a good level for me and has helped me so much in terms of focus and repetition. I looked around for a while to find a good fit though.
    I absolutely agree with you - in a situation when you are responsible for the collective output like in a band work (either professional or amateur) you have to be up to some standards that the band calls for. Otherwise you are risking to be replaced by a better player. That should be the best motivation to focus on what you are required to play and aim to play it well.

    In my situation when I don't participate in any ensemble work I have no obligations.
    I'm totally an amateur musician and besides I play(or better say, learn to play) a number of musical instruments for my own... pleasure?

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Have you had a complete medical checkup, and maybe a neurological workup?! I know this sounds alarmist, but what you're describing does not sound normal to me.

    Assuming there is no medical issue here, it sounds like performance anxiety of a type. Skilled athletes sometimes experience it, and forget how to do stuff they've practiced forever on. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an article about it in a New Yorker book devoted to sports a few years ago. One form of it is that athletes suffer "paralysis from analysis"--they forget to trust to the "flow" of doing something--instead of playing tennis, and focusing on the ad ct, tossing up the ball to serve, and hitting away, they would begin to think "how should I toss the ball....how should I cock the racket, how should I arch the back, etc...." (I can't recall the exact book, but it was definitely Gladwell and it was definitely a New Yorker book product.) BTW, golfers who "yip" as they putt are often excellent players who are fearful of doing something less than perfectly...Walter Hagen, Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones all had the yips and they were the top players of their day--at least for a while. (Hacks---i.e. bad players don't get the yips.)

    If you have access to something that will transpose tunes, I can think of something to try. First, spend 5-10 minutes doing finger stretching before a playing session. There are classical guitarists demonstrating these on youtube. Once your fingers are loose, then you can begin.

    Transpose a bunch of tunes into a key you know well, say B flat or E flat. There are a million E flat ballads. Print out lead sheets, and see if you can find a play along or backing track to go with it. Spend the next month or so, just working on E flat tunes or B flat tunes. Don't worry about heads at first, even...just play through the chord progressions, play arpeggios or lead lines....you should be able to visualize doing this without looking at the fingerbd. Don't look at the fingerbd. as you play---the idea will be to break the focus on "where do the fingers go...what do I do next...." Just listen to the progressions and jam along with them...close your eyes or avert your eyes from the fingerbd. I think a lot of people who watch the fingerboard actually slow themselves down....just like a touch typist who tries to watch what typewriter key is being pressed, or struck on the platten of the typewriter...if you do this...guaranteed that you will type probably 1/2 as fast as you are capable of. If you do just major key tunes in E flat there are a ton of them to choose from (The X-Mas Song; Early Autumn; For All we Know; God Bless the Child, etc.):

    Get to the pt. where you're hearing the changes and responding aurally to them (by ear), and then playing what sounds right...without looking....and just keep working on this. Eventually you'll get to the pt. where you'll trust to what you hear....and be responding. I sometimes have thought about why there are so many good blind musicians....it has to be that they've developed the ears to focus, really focus, on sound...and they can do (have to do) so without visual distractions....

    After you've worked your way through a bunch of major keys, then do the minor keys...

    If I'm right about your performance anxiety, you need to re-program your mind to allow yourselves to play without thinking "Now my hands and fingers need to go here..." You may feel like you're taking a step backward for a while, and you may actually regress...but if you can reprogram your mind to let the fingers respond to what you're hearing, rather than what you're thinking....then you may find that playing becomes a new experience.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Have you had a complete medical checkup, and maybe a neurological workup?! I know this sounds alarmist, but what you're describing does not sound normal to me.
    ...
    If I'm right about your performance anxiety, you need to re-program your mind to allow yourselves to play without thinking "Now my hands and fingers need to go here..." You may feel like you're taking a step backward for a while, and you may actually regress...but if you can reprogram your mind to let the fingers respond to what you're hearing, rather than what you're thinking....then you may find that playing becomes a new experience.
    I've already heard a similar opinion about some neurological problems in response to description of my guitar playing problems. I remember about 5 years ago I had a medical test done that qualified the response of my arms', hands' and legs' muscles and there were no obvious problems detected.
    At that time I remember I had lower guitar playing abilities. I've progressed since then but I can't estimate the amount of progress.

    I don't know how many amateur guitarists like me are able to play successfully "by ear". Is that a common skill among non-professionals? I noticed watching YT videos that even many professional jazz musicians watch the frefboard intensely.

    Thank you for your suggestions about the tune practice!

  26. #25
    One more thought I have on what I've already described in my origional post: what if I simply overestimate the expected progress I was hoping for as an outcome of my practice over the years?
    What if I concentrated on half of everything I've already learned but did it with more depth?

    However one thing still worries me in that case: at the very least after ten years spent with a guitar I have to grab it and immediately run 1-2-3-4 finger patterns across the fretboard with ease and with some speed.
    I can't! I always have to "get into the playing mode" slowly. If I try to really 'run' the 1-2-3-4 patterns my fingers will hit many spots in between the strings.
    In other words as I already explained it earlier and now I may express it in some common terms 'my muscle memory tricks me' for some time before I'm "warmed up".